Sanitizing in dishwasher - A cautionary tale

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chriscraig

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Today, I was about to bottle my second batch of brew. I have 40 or so Grolsch bottles cleaned and ready for sanitizing. I look over and see an empty dishwasher, and decide to be lazy and just use the sanitize feature.

Well, I'm here to tell you that this is not a good idea. When it was all done, I started emptying the bottles out of the dishwasher and saw that there were little bits of food and such stuck on the inside of the bottles.

So, now I had to dig out my bottle brush (again) and clean all the bottles all over again.

I guess it never pays to take shortcuts :mad:
 
Sanitizing in the dishwasher is fine as long as you're just using the steam dry feature...I wash out my bottles with my jet washer and then steam them for sanitizing...works like a charm.

If you have food bits in your bottles there must be some part of a wash cycle happening, which is going to be bad right off the bat, as you might be getting residual soap up in your bottles.
 
I know a lot of folks swear by it, and I've kept my mouth shut because I don't even have a dishwasher, but I've always wondered about using dishwashers.

Seems to me that although the main areas of the dishwasher appear clean, there are a ton of nooks and crannies in those things that could hide plenty of biomatter. Even inside all the holes on those spinning arm thingys.

There's some new dishwasher soap or whatever that shows supposedly where all the crap can hide in a dishwasher and this detergent supposedly cleans everywhere. But the pic was enough to further get me wondering about micro food/biomatter particles in those things.

There's this experiment here that shows that some cross contamination does occur.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...d=147018&md5=3c20f13cb39902835a8501391c2e00c3

I don't know if you have to be on a university/hospital computer, like I am to access the article free of charge, so I will just quote the abstract and the conclusion if you want.

Abstract

Dishwashers are used in central hospital kitchens and ward kitchens to provide clean crockery. Soil recipes based on international standards were tested in order to evaluate the performance of a general dishwasher. In normal use of dishwashers, adherent soils are left on the crockery before cleaning. Different adherent soils, both with and without bacterial contamination, were used to show the effectiveness of the dishwasher to remove this type of soil. It was shown that contamination will occur from the dishwater to crockery with adherent soil. These results demonstrate the importance of cleaning soiled surfaces of crockery mechanically in the dishwashing process. Otherwise cross-contamination, and thereby the spread of infections, may occur.

4. Discussion

The purpose of our study was to verify our hypothesis that in order to obtain clean crockery, it is important to get the crockery mechanically clean.[11.] We used international standard test soils (A, [4.] B, [4.] C [5. and 6.]) and test soils with increased adherence (I, II, III). The choice of soil with increased adherence was also based on suggestions from other international standards. [12. and 13.] Test soils A and C were easily removed in dishwashers. Test soil B was more difficult and demanded a larger flux of water in the cleaning process, which is obvious from our results ( Figure 4). [14. and 15.]

In the professional kitchen the soil is more adhesive as in test soils I, II and III. These types of soil will not be removed in a dishwashing process for normally soiled crockery, (Figure 5). There is always a risk of cross-contamination with soil residues. [8. and 14.] In test soil C, the bacteria were moved from the metal test plates to the wash-water in the dishwater tank of the machine. [15.] Wash-water samples from other dishwashing machines in hospital kitchens and restaurant kitchens have shown bacterial concentrations in the order of 103–10[4.] cfu/mL.[16.]

From the experiment with test soil C, the result showed that no bacteria remained on the metal test plates after a normal dishwashing process. However, using test soils I and II with the bacterial load, there was hardly any decrease in bacterial activity due to the dishwashing process (Table I). This suggests that if the soil contains bacteria and is not properly removed, bacteria survive and are still viable in spite of the high temperature, of the dishwashing process. The dishwater used in these tests has comparable data concerning temperatures and cycle times to other dishwashers used in hospital kitchens. [3., 7., 8. and 17.] The thermal resistance test verifies that E. faecium can survive at much higher temperatures than is achieved in dishwashers.[3., 7. and 15.] Several other types of bacteria survive the temperatures produced by standard dishwashers and could cause serious infections in hospitals. [1., 14. and 17. J. Francis and S.W.B. Newsom, Evaluation of dishwashing machines in four hospitals. J Hosp Infect 9 (1987), pp. 294–297. Article | PDF (250 K) | View Record in Scopus | Cited By in Scopus (5)17.]

Another risk is cross-contamination from wash-water to crockery. Our results show, that in all test soils I, II and III cross-contamination was detected (Figure 6). However, on the plates that were visually clean, no cross-contamination was found. There is an obvious risk for the spread of infection through improperly cleaned crockery. Having survived, the kitchen provides suitable temperature and humidity for bacterial growth. [3.]

Porcelain plates and other types of crockery are used in wards and staff canteens all over the hospital. If the crockery is contaminated by bacteria from any ward, cross-contamination can occur in the cleaning process of the dishwashers. Bacteria could then be spread to other wards. To reduce the risk of spread, it is necessary to ensure that the crockery is mechanically cleaned.

If anyone wants the whole article and can't click on it, let me know, and I'll figure something out, if you guys want it here, I will post the whole thing.
 
I'm with Revvy. I have a dishwasher and I would never rely on it to sanitize my bottles. I go through a lot of trouble to make some damn fine beer, I'm not going to hope that my dishwasher didn't shoot some of last weeks dinner up into my bottles and spoil it. I'm kinda a bottle Nazi anyway, I take pride in my bottles being scorched earth cleaned and sanitized before I package.
 
2 things...
run your dishwasher empty first to clean it and even if you get little bits in there, is is still sanitary, just no clean.

Now I tried teh dishwasher method before, I prefer to clean em by hand. I never use a bottle brush, a triple rinse when i empty a bottle and then rinse, sanitize, rinse before bottling. Done!
 
I run my bottles through twice... once the night before then the day of i out a little bit of step one sanitizer in there and they come out golden... That steam can kill any type of bacteria.
 
A dishwasher can be great for cleaning the bottles, which is what I've done before. I'm not so sure about sanitizing them, however.
 
I'm a brewing noob. But seriously, if you've got food particles stuck to your bottles, then you've got issues with your dishwasher. It isn't draining. Maybe its overloaded or or something. If food is stuck to your bottles, then its stuck to your dishes too.

I've never had issues with food particles being stuck on dishes (or bottles) when I run our DW.
 
A dishwasher can be great for cleaning the bottles, which is what I've done before. I'm not so sure about sanitizing them, however.
Bass akwards :D




And it's a dishwasher, not a garbage disposal. Try rinsing the dishes before putting them in. :cross:
 
2 things...
run your dishwasher empty first to clean it and even if you get little bits in there, is is still sanitary, just no clean.

Now I tried teh dishwasher method before, I prefer to clean em by hand. I never use a bottle brush, a triple rinse when i empty a bottle and then rinse, sanitize, rinse before bottling. Done!

I am a triple rinser too, but be wary, the Montrachet yeast in carbed Apfelwein will NOT come out with just a triple rinse. Just ask half of my IPA last summer that turned into nasty, phenolic gushers. :mad:
 
I'm a brewing noob. But seriously, if you've got food particles stuck to your bottles, then you've got issues with your dishwasher. It isn't draining. Maybe its overloaded or or something. If food is stuck to your bottles, then its stuck to your dishes too.

I've never had issues with food particles being stuck on dishes (or bottles) when I run our DW.

LOL maybe he put them in there with dirty dishes...:cross:
 
I am a triple rinser too, but be wary, the Montrachet yeast in carbed Apfelwein will NOT come out with just a triple rinse. Just ask half of my IPA last summer that turned into nasty, phenolic gushers. :mad:
Now if you had run those bottles through a dishwasher with a antibacterial cycle the leftover yeast would have been killed. You might have had ugly floater in your beer, but no gushers. Sanitizers only work on the surface. The inner parts of the yeast gunk are still alive. Heat kills!

Haven't read the whole article Revvy referenced, but if the test was to "evaluate the performance of a general dishwasher" it has no relevence here. I don't think that anyone would argue that using a dishwasher without an antibacterial will sanitize your bottles.
 
I've never found an bit of anything in or on my bottles from my dishwasher. I've done (mental calculation time...) thousands of bottles in there. Wouldn't do it any other way. They get VERY hot in there, and they don't get any dirtier than when I put them in there (they probably don't get any cleaner, though, at least on the inside).

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I am a longtime dishwasher as bottle sanitizer user. I have been known to add bleach to the wash cycle, but lately (last 20 or so batches) have been lax with the bleach....I run the full heavy wash with hot hot water and then the sani-rinse and dry option....the bottles are too hot to handle 1/2 hour after the cycle has ended.

I have never, ever, had a bottle with food (I do a thorough visual inspection of most bottles, and I rinse my dishes prior to loading them every time) particles in it, never had a bad batch of beer, and might have had a few gushers (less than .1% of all bottles and very rare) over the years of using this process.

Every once in a while to change it up, the bottles also get a long soak in sanitizer....but perhaps every bottle in my inventory gets this treatment once a year.

I think if you have doubts about the insides of your dishwasher, a quick soak in sanitizer might help.....but as we all know in this hobby, a little prevention (rinse those dishes, inspect the inside of dishwasher, and inspect clean bottles) goes a long long way.
 
Bits of food on the sanitized bottles indicates a problem with the dishwasher. Take out the racks and stick your head in to carefully inspect the bottom of the unit. Use a flashlight, if necessary. You may well find an inordinate amount of crap over the suction screen. Clean out all the bits of food that you can see. Then, at the grocery store, purchase a "bottle" of dishwasher cleaner. You remove the cap, place the "bottle" in the silverware basket and run the washer through an entire HOT cycle. That should clean out whatever your inspection missed, along with stuck-on grease from previous cycles.

Now that the dishwasher is CLEAN, load up the bottles and run it...WITHOUT any detergent...on the hottest cycle and INCLUDE the "hot dry" portion of the cycle. The hot water...and the HOT steam/air...will sanitize whatever is in the dishwasher.
 
Yeah I always run my dishwasher empty, without soap first. After that's done, I run it with bottles inside. Never had a problem. It's good to caution people though! I'll keep an eye out.
 
I've bottled over 60 batches with my dishwasher.

Mine has a 'Sanitize' setting, and they cannot use that term on a dishwasher unless it actually is actually NSF CERTIFIED to remove 99.9% of the bacteria from whatever is inside (NSF Reference)

It's far superior to any other method I've tried - it's failproof, keeps spillover mess contained, fast, simple, and it sanitizes the entire dishwasher periodically so that we are less likely to get sick from eating off dishes that may have bacteria on them (not that that is really a worry).

I've never had any kind of food in my bottles, but even if I found an entire carrot in a beer I wouldn't worry because it would be sanitized :mug:
 
I have used the dishwasher for years. The key is to use clean bottles and no soap. I clean my bottles as I empty them. Before I put them back into the dishwasher to sanitize them I rinse them with a bottle washer first. Then I use the sanitize setting without any problems. Bottling over the open dishwasher door also makes clean up very easy. Nothing to wipe up. Simply close the dishwasher door and anything you may have spilled will simply go into the dishwasher to drain away.
 
Just like the food service industry, you need to wash, rinse, and sanitize. Sanitizing is the last step and is the only one for which dishwashers should be used with bottles. The small opening in the bottle does not allow the dishwasher to wash the bottles adequately for you. Wash them by hand first (bottle brush)... clean all the gunk and residue out of them.

The sanitizing features on dishwashers is with heat ("heat sanitizing"... as opposed to chemical sanitizing). There is a time/temperature scale for heat sanitizing. The standard is 180°F for 30 seconds. Below that temp needs more time. The lowest heat sanitizing temp is down to 145°F (I believe) and needs like an hour at that temp.

The dishwasher manufacturers have to meet this time/temp requirement to say that they have a sanitizing feature. So, dishwashers with sanitizing features are fine for sanitizing bottles... just wash and rinse them thoroughly by hand first.
 
I soak all bottles in oxyclean, then use a bottle brush on an electric drill to scrub them good. I put all the soapy bottles in the dishwasher and run a full cycle with a soap tab, and let the heat coil dry them. Then I sanitize them with a couple pumps of the vinator/starsan and hang on the tree. Never had a problem.

I think dishwashers are good to help clean but not for sanitizing.
 
I think dishwashers are good to help clean but not for sanitizing.

Sorry, hate to do this, but that is totally backwards. I'll defer to the posts above (and of course, 100 older threads just like this one) instead of repeating them. Granted, some dishwashers might not have the heater to get the temps to sanitizing levels; those are probably useless for beermaking.
 
it is my understanding that using dishwasher detergent is bad (as bad as using soap) as it leaves a trace of film that negatively affects head retention.

The heat of the dishwasher is the sanitizing part, I wouldn't count on the dishwasher to do the cleaning. I do make sure my bottles are clean of debris and rinsed from their previous use (rinsing the bottles as they are emptied is much easier than having to scrub them out later).
 
Sorry, hate to do this, but that is totally backwards. I'll defer to the posts above (and of course, 100 older threads just like this one) instead of repeating them. Granted, some dishwashers might not have the heater to get the temps to sanitizing levels; those are probably useless for beermaking.

I get confused reading so much, everyone has a different opinion. So are you saying it's ok to use a dishwasher to sanitize but not for cleaning? Not trying to be a pest here, just want to clarify what i'm doing wrong.
 
I get confused reading so much, everyone has a different opinion. So are you saying it's ok to use a dishwasher to sanitize but not for cleaning? Not trying to be a pest here, just want to clarify what i'm doing wrong.

Yeah, that's the idea. Clean the bottles first, then use the dishwasher heat sanitizing feature to sanitize them. Don't put any soap in the dishwasher.
 
Check out the page below. You can see that bacteria is killed dead at elevated temperatures. My dishwasher does that. What my dishwasher can't do is get much water up into the bottle because of the small bottle neck (plus I have the bottles staked onto the dishwasher's posts, which also occludes the hole).

Beer_Pasteurization_Curve.jpg
 
run a cycle empty then fill with bottles and one cap of idophore

You do this and you will probably have a stained red dishwasher--that would be a SWMBO no-no in my casa.

I soak the bottles in sanitizer, high pressure bottle wash and then run through hot cycle (wash and dry) in my dishwasher with no soap or other detergents.
 
Yeah, that's the idea. Clean the bottles first, then use the dishwasher heat sanitizing feature to sanitize them. Don't put any soap in the dishwasher.

And don't think about adding any starsan either. We have threads about that on here.

It isn't pretty.

Well I guess it is pretty, but not worth the damage.;)

I can't find the original thread with pictures, but it was not too different from this.

soap.jpg
 
Adding starsan to the dishwasher will removed tons of minerals from the inside of the dishwasher and deposit them in a fine powder all over the bottles. This powder bakes on and is VERY difficult to remove (vinegar should do it). I can't divulge my source on this information.
 
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