Persimmon Wine

I found Keller's recipe, and have a few questions.

I will probably end up with 4 gallons worth by the end of the season, minimum, and that's giving 90% of them to the wildlife.

My question is on the process. Am I better off just crushing and fermenting the fruit whole, or should I pulse and strain the juice instead?

Secondly, Keller recommends either Montrachet or P Cuvee. I know those are totally different yeasts, not really similar at all, so I'm curious why he'd say one or the other.

What would be the best yeast choice for a persimmon wine, final ABV between 11-12%, and aged for a year?

If you aren't familiar with persimmons, the are like a cross between plums and peaches, with a slight pumpkin flavor as well. So if you've made plum or peach wine, your advice for persimmon wine would be applicable here.


Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!

No advice, but persimmons would be very interesting as a wine. I grew up with wild ones (which would only be good when they are VERY ripe). My wife grew up in Asia and loves Asian persimmons ... to the point that she has altered her skin color slightly during some seasons because of how many she has eaten. That's one that might me a few points if done right ... but I don't have time to fit it into the plans this year.

A good rule of thumb on ripeness: Wait until it falls off the tree. If it bounces, it isn't ripe. If it splits, it's ripe.

While I haven't done a whole lot of wines yet, the recipes from Jack's site I have used turned out well using the yeast he perscribed or the yeast he recommends from his yeast profile page. So for persimmons, he says D47 is ideal. I guess I'd say he had a reason for suggesting those other two (maybe the original recipe said to use those yeasts?)... if only those pesky woodland creatures didn't make off with so much of the fruit, you could do a little experiment! But if I were to have only one shot at a persimmon wine, I think I'd go with D47.

In any case, I hope you let us know how things turn out!

Thanks... I remember reading about that one on GotMead, and I just checked out a bunch on Midwest's site, I also agree the D-47 sounds like the best bet. Thanks for the reassurance.

I didn't read that on Keller's recipe though, that's interesting. I re-read it, and it's actually adapted from some other recipe, it's not actually Jack's.

Fletch78 said:

A good rule of thumb on ripeness: Wait until it falls off the tree. If it bounces, it isn't ripe. If it splits, it's ripe.

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That works for American persimmons (the ones I grew up with) and the some varieties of Asian persimmons. But there are other varieties of Asian persimmons that are still firm when ripe, and aren't astringent at all. Those firm varieties are the ones we usually eat in our house these days since after discovering them, the soft ones have lost some of their appeal for me.

SteveHoward said:

That works for American persimmons (the ones I grew up with) and the some varieties of Asian persimmons. But there are other varieties of Asian persimmons that are still firm when ripe, and aren't astringent at all. Those firm varieties are the ones we usually eat in our house these days since after discovering them, the soft ones have lost some of their appeal for me.

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I'm pretty sure mine are Asian, based on their small size. Some of them don't burst when they hit the ground, but I do a quick taste test on any questionable ones. So far, most of the firm ones fail the taste test.

This is the taste test:

Good:
Bad:

One musn't be a conesseur to know the difference. It is profound.

I had also considered experimenting with putting almost-ripe persimmons in a bag with a banana, to ripen them via the ethyl-something gas. However, at the rate they are dropping ripe, I don't need to do the experiment. This morning, I've already collected a half gallon, and there are still approximately 40,000 more on the tree.

Fletch78 said:

This is the taste test:

Good:
Bad:

Click to expand...

That's gotta be the best description of the taste difference on the astringent varieties that I've ever seen. You're right, there's no guessing about it. One can't mistake it if it isn't ripe.

FWIW, here is a comparison of one firm, nonastringent variety (Fuyu persimmons):

http://simplyrecipes.com/recipes/fuyu_persimmons/

With another soft-fruited and astringent type (Hachiya Persimmons):

http://blogs.kqed.org/bayareabites/2008/12/13/hachiya-persimmons/

Another thing my wife likes to do with the Hachiya type is to freeze them, then thaw them just enough to let them get slushy, open the skin and eat the slushy fruit straight out of the skin.

I suspect that when making wine, the Hachiya persimmons would be better since they are soft and juicier when ripe. I've never made persimmon wine, but that's what I would think.

Mine don't look much like either of those. Maybe I do have the American variety, and they are just dropping small because of heat and drought. This is my first year on this property. I'll get some pictures when the maid gets home.

Fletch78 said:

I didn't read that on Keller's recipe though, that's interesting. I re-read it, and it's actually adapted from some other recipe, it's not actually Jack's.

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I know you said D47 is probably what you'll use, but just so you know where I read my info from: http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/strains.asp. And for those who don't feel like checking the sight out:

"Lalvin ICV-D47 (Côtes-du-Rhône) : This is a low-foaming quick fermenter that settles well and forms compact lees at the end of fermentation, although when left on the lees, ripe spicy aromas with tropical and citrus notes develop. This strain tolerates fermentation temperatures ranging from 50° to 86° F. and enhances mouth feel due to complex carbohydrates and high polysaccharide production. Malolactic fermentation proceeds well in wine made with ICV-D47. This strain is recommended for making wines from white varieties such as Chardonnay and for rosé style wines. It is ideal for persimmon, peach, nectarine, paw-paw, and mango, as well as aromatic wines such as rose petal, elderflower, anise and woodruff. It is also an excellent choice for producing mead if supplemented with yeast nutrients, especially usable nitrogen. Its alcohol ceiling is 14%."

Also... for reference...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f25/absurd-persimmon-project-154932/

Thanks for linking that post, it made my day! :rockin:

Sorry for bringing up an old thread but I am about to make my first Persimmon Wine!! We have a great Hachiya Persimmon tree in our backyard that produces a lot of fruit. As was mentioned before Hachiya have to be super ripe before you eat. So if all my fruit is NOT ready at the same time can I take the ripe stuff and start the wine and gradually add more fruit as it ripens? I would make sure I add a Campden tab before I add the fruit to kill any wild yeast. Another alternative is to just add the fruit in the sanitized bucket with Campden tabs and keep adding to it until I have enough for 5-6 gallons of wine. What do you guys think?

Phunhog said:

Sorry for bringing up an old thread but I am about to make my first Persimmon Wine!! We have a great Hachiya Persimmon tree in our backyard that produces a lot of fruit. As was mentioned before Hachiya have to be super ripe before you eat. So if all my fruit is NOT ready at the same time can I take the ripe stuff and start the wine and gradually add more fruit as it ripens? I would make sure I add a Campden tab before I add the fruit to kill any wild yeast. Another alternative is to just add the fruit in the sanitized bucket with Campden tabs and keep adding to it until I have enough for 5-6 gallons of wine. What do you guys think?

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Freeze ripe pulp until you have what you need. Hachiya will shift from that hard bitter fruit to soft, sweet if you freeze it whole for a few days and then thaw it. But freeze the ones that have spots of softness for best impact if you plan to freezer sweeten. You could definitely step feed the ripe fruit into the ferment but you will have impossible time calculating SG and ACV, but you would need to be sure to kerp it coming in increments.

I just discovered a source of fresh soft persimmons to make wine with, but am wondering how you process the fruit. can i thaw and juice the whole fruit including the skins, or do i need to peel off the skins?
Also, do you all recommend making this from just persimmons, or is ther another fruit this should be blended with?

Hello,

First post here. I'm new to wine making, so I'd like some help (if it's not too late already). I went to my local market across the street yesterday, and the market was loaded with super ripe Hachiya persimmons. I just bought some gear to make wine, so I was looking for something to make wine out. I bought about 20 ripe persimmons. Slushed them up in my food processor, added some water and chopped raisins and heated it all up in a pot.
Now my problem is: the stuff was so sludgey, I couldn't take a SG measurement I figured the mix needed some extra sugar, so I added about 700grams. My total volume was about 5L (because my demi-john only holds 5L).

Does anyone know if what I did was good? Will the mix become more watery, or will it stay thick after fermentation? Did I add enough sugar? I added about 2.75L of persimmon sludge and added about 2.25L of water and a handful of raisins. When the mix was cooled down to about 45 degrees Celsius I added a small teaspoon of pectic enzyme.

I will be adding the yeast in a couple of minutes. (some all-purpose wine yeast from my home brew shop)

I will add photos soon!

Ok. So I think I had it coming...I added one packet of yeast (because it said so on the pack). I thought it would be a waste to use a bit and ditch the rest. Well. The cap of my airlock was blown off and now there's persimmon slugde everywhere. The jug is in the lab where I do my internship and my supervisor send me horrible pictures xD I think I'm gonna dump half out and fill it up to 5L with water and sugar see how that goes. Still, any tips would be great. Or a (link to a) recipe.

Thnx

before
after

I wouldn't dump it out... The more you dilute it, the less persimmon flavor you'll have. Maybe just put it in a nice tub to make cleanup easier, and plan on more headspace next time (and a blowoff tube!).

Update:
I've cleaned it up. Sanitized the airlock and stopper again and put it back in. This thing is bubbling like crazy. Had to shake it every 10-15 minutes to prevent it from overflowing. Luckely there was a spare shake-plate in the lab. And that really did the job of knocking the trapped airbubbles out of the sludge. I think it will survive the weekend. How long does primairy fermentation usually take?

I would strain out the lees after 5-7 days. Primary fermentation can keep going for a month pretty easily.

How should i strain out the lees? I've got some cheese cloth, would that do the trick? or just will a mesh strainer also do it?

If you can do it with the cheesecloth, it's less to clear later. I just like to get most of the fruit out after five days or so, to avoid molding/spoilage.

So, the weekend passed. The Demi-john has been on the shaker the whole weekend and bubbled away nicely. The fermentation turned less vigorous, so I was able to take it off the shaker plate. It's been 7 days since I've started it, and the airlock is bubbling ever 12.5 seconds (instead of every 2 seconds at the beginning and every 7 seconds after 5 days). There are now also three distinct layers of separation. A cloudy silky looking layer on the bottom, a semi-clear layer in the middle, and a layer of solids on top. I will post a photo asap. I'm giving it a swirl twice every day to mix all the layers in (is this a good or bad thing?).
I will probably strain out the lees before the weekend. Updates will follow.

Separation

After mixing

So I went and filtered the lees out (which was one heck of a job!). View attachment 237261

The mixture had a really strong alcohol smell, so I think I'm going in the right direction. After the straining, the liquid was a bit cloudy. As you can see in this picture.
View attachment 237262

I sparged nitrogen gass trough the liquid to drive out the CO2 and O2. And immediately put the airlock on. After one night, the wine is starting to clear, the yeast is collecting on the bottom. But there is no airlock activity. Is this normal?
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1416579388.475382.jpg

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1416581031.154109.jpg
Cloudy liquid

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1416994217.849874.jpg
As you van see it's starting to clear even more. Should I rack it to get rid of the yeast, or should I just let it clear like this?

I'd wait about a month between rackings or so. Getting nice and clear!

I just started my first batch of persimmon wine last Tuesday, and I think it's coming along nicely.

We have a hachiya persimmon tree where I live and we collected about 15 lbs off of it that were in easy reach. Hachiyas, of course, are ripe when super soft, and horribly astringent otherwise, so I let them ripen on the counter unitl I had about 6 lbs. You can freeze them as they ripen but I just let mine sit off to one side till I had enough. I put a couple of apples in the mix to help them ripen.

To process I cut off the calyx (the leafy part where the fruit attached to the tree) and squeezed the pulp into my primary bucket lined with a nylon mesh bag and then dropped the skin in there as well. I added pectic enzyme, 1.5 tsp of citric acid, a couple of crushed campden tablets, and enough water to to make 1.5 gallons. Then let this sit overnight.

The next day, I added 5 lbs of corn sugar boiled with enough water to hit 2.5 gallons. Well that was my plan anyway. I had trouble accounting for the volume of pulp in the mesh bag and ended up with close to 3 gallons (almost 3.5 with the bag in the water). The gravity tested at 1.080 anyway. I added yeast nutrient and pitched 3 grams of Epernay 2. Which was billed as good for non-grape wines and also low and slow. Boy is it ever, I can see bubbles when I peak under the lid but it's not enought to move the airlock. The Epernay supposedly developes a bouquet and has a tendency to get stuck, good for semi-dry wines.

Just took a sample today, still sweet at 1.068 with a mango, tropical fruit flavor. Added more nutirent and resolved to be patient.

I brewed some persimmon wine last weekend with 23lbs of fuyu persimmons, frozen, thawed and blended whole, then strained into the bucket. Made 3.2 gall of pulp, topped w water and apple juice yeast starter to 6 gallons. View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1418360413.296821.jpg it's suuuuper thick, couldn't even get a hydro reading, but yeast bubbling away 3 days after pitching.

Update on the persimmon wine experiment. When yeast took off, it overflowed half gallon jug i was using as blowoff tube. Put it inside fo 2 gallon fermenter to catch ooze.
Kept bubbling for over a week about 1/sec, then tapered of and stopped after 10 days.
12/31/14- opened up fermenter. There is a white "cake" several inches thick on top of the wine, looks like yeast mixed with persimmon pulp. Scooped it off, took hydro reading. .985!!!! Time to clarify. Wine under the cake is crystal clear, hydro sample looks and tastes like a dry white wine. Good! After losing top trub cake, liquid level is down from slightly less than 6 gallons to just below 5Gallons
1/1/15- Racked to Better bottle, with 2 tsp Sparkalloid, 2 1/2 tsp Sorbate and 1/2 Kmeta. Wien is a beautiful color, but there is a layer of pulp/trub on the bottom that is at least as thick as what was on top. Lost more liquid to that, left with about 4 gallons in secondary.
I was really worried about astringency from the fruit, since i blended up skins and all, and poured thru strainer, but as it separated out, thats gone away and the wine is neutral and pleasant tasting, especially for as dry as it fermented.

If i were to do this over again, I'd think about doing some things differently:
1) Let the fruit thaw more fully before blending, so the pulp (hopefully) wouldnt be as thick and would strain easier
2) Make the batch slightly bigger, and split the primary between two 6 1/2 gallon fermenters, with only 4 gallons or so in each for additional headspace, and to account for losses from pulp separating out to make a full 6 Gallons in Secondary.

Amazing how much the liquid cleared up, considering how it started out.

Wow...I let this finish quite dry...about 0.999 and I must say...it tastes like ass. It's very harsh and strong, with a vodka taste. I'm hoping it will mellow out with age. Otherwise, there is still a nice hint of the persimmon.

coffearobusta42 said:

I just started my first batch of persimmon wine last Tuesday, and I think it's coming along nicely.

We have a hachiya persimmon tree where I live and we collected about 15 lbs off of it that were in easy reach. Hachiyas, of course, are ripe when super soft, and horribly astringent otherwise, so I let them ripen on the counter unitl I had about 6 lbs. You can freeze them as they ripen but I just let mine sit off to one side till I had enough. I put a couple of apples in the mix to help them ripen.

To process I cut off the calyx (the leafy part where the fruit attached to the tree) and squeezed the pulp into my primary bucket lined with a nylon mesh bag and then dropped the skin in there as well. I added pectic enzyme, 1.5 tsp of citric acid, a couple of crushed campden tablets, and enough water to to make 1.5 gallons. Then let this sit overnight.

The next day, I added 5 lbs of corn sugar boiled with enough water to hit 2.5 gallons. Well that was my plan anyway. I had trouble accounting for the volume of pulp in the mesh bag and ended up with close to 3 gallons (almost 3.5 with the bag in the water). The gravity tested at 1.080 anyway. I added yeast nutrient and pitched 3 grams of Epernay 2. Which was billed as good for non-grape wines and also low and slow. Boy is it ever, I can see bubbles when I peak under the lid but it's not enought to move the airlock. The Epernay supposedly developes a bouquet and has a tendency to get stuck, good for semi-dry wines.

Just took a sample today, still sweet at 1.068 with a mango, tropical fruit flavor. Added more nutirent and resolved to be patient.

Click to expand...

I'm bottling my first batch tonite, a week after backsweetening. I understand what you mean with the hot alcohol "vodka" flavor, but backsweetening with 1.5 cups of sugar made a HUUGE difference in the taste of mine already IMO. Other than the hot booziness im hoping will mellow out, im surprised how mild in flavor and color it turned out.

Im also making my second batch tonite, but adding 2 lbs of frozen strawberries as well to make what Im calling a "persimmon blush" Im hoping the strawberries will add a little color and some more flavor character to this batch, but hopefully wont completely overwhelm the mild persimmon flavor.

I put 1 lb of strwberries in a Skeeter pee awhile back, and even through all the lemon juice the sweet strawberry flavor still came through nicely when the wine fermented dry, unlike raspberreis which get super tart after yeast sucks the yeast eats the sugar, so im hopeful they can help here

Brewed persimmon blush w/ 20lbs persimmons, 6 lbs strawberries. Tried to use strainer bag, but the blended pulp would not strain through the bag, same as last time. Added all ingredients but yeast, topped up with RO water to 6 gallons and mixed thoroughly, then pulled off 1 gallon of sludge to save for topping up later

Soo, the strawberry Persimmon ended up IMO better than the regular. The strawberries added additional flavor and complexity like i had hoped, without overwhelming the persimmon flavor.

Tried some regular persimmon after letting it age: Strong alcohol smell, but surprisingly pleasant. Still a sipping wine, but drinkable, and I would expect the "hotness" to continue to die down with age. Not astringent at all or bitter.

I have Meads that have aged for a year that still taste hotter than this, so I am optimistic about what this will be like with time.