Cider tastes like water - Your opinion please!

Hello,

I just bottled 2 batches of 23L of cider.

• In both I used Freshly squeezed apple juice from the orchard

• Yeast was: Lalvin E-1118

• In the second batch, I added frozen strawberries

THEY TASTE LIKE WATER


Is it because I didn't use concentrate?

Do you have any other ideas as to what could have gone wrong?

Thank you

1...EC 1118 too aggressive for cider, strips the apple flavor. Give it some time it may come back with aging. Many prefer to use Ale yeasts. Nottingham is quite popular.

2.... Depends on apple varieties in the cider. Good eating apples don't make the best cider.

3...Did you take any SG readings before or after fermentation?

4....Sometimes adding some sweetness back (backsweetening) will bring some flavor back. You need to stabilize with sulphite and sorbate first or pasteurize after or the yeasts will kick back in and eat the new sugars. I prefer to use frozen apple juice concentrate for backsweetening. Adds sweetness and flavor.

5 How much berries? You need around 3 lbs per gallon to retain much flavor. I prefer to add fruit after primary fermentation. It seems to retain more fruitiness during a slower ferment.

I made a very similar batch, with EC 1118, and had no problems, great flavour. I have a batch with strawberry right now, should be ready to try this week.

My guess is your juice wasn't the most flavourful to begin with

roadymi said:

1...EC 1118 too aggressive for cider, strips the apple flavor. Give it some time it may come back with aging. Many prefer to use Ale yeasts. Nottingham is quite popular.

2.... Depends on apple varieties in the cider. Good eating apples don't make the best cider.

3...Did you take any SG readings before or after fermentation?

4....Sometimes adding some sweetness back (backsweetening) will bring some flavor back. You need to stabilize with sulphite and sorbate first or pasteurize after or the yeasts will kick back in and eat the new sugars. I prefer to use frozen apple juice concentrate for backsweetening. Adds sweetness and flavor.

5 How much berries? You need around 3 lbs per gallon to retain much flavor. I prefer to add fruit after primary fermentation. It seems to retain more fruitiness during a slower ferment.

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Thanks for your answer

1- I was also told that EC1118 made wines/ciders too dry. I was suggested to use K1-V1116 next time. But I will look into beer yeasts. They seem to be quite popular in this forum

2- Good to know. I'll shop around more next time. Even though there are great suggestions in the forums, I don't think I can find all of these juices in canada. I'll check it out next time im in the us

3-Yes: Initial was 1.081 and final was 1.004 & 1.000

4- I'm reading about that for the next time. Does your yeast have to be done when you do that?

5- Really not much.... I don't think it changed anything.

You made Bud-cider!

Has alcohol but lacking that flavor you were looking for.

Richelle said:

Thanks for your answer

1- I was also told that EC1118 made wines/ciders too dry. I was suggested to use K1-V1116 next time. But I will look into beer yeasts. They seem to be quite popular in this forum

2- Good to know. I'll shop around more next time. Even though there are great suggestions in the forums, I don't think I can find all of these juices in canada. I'll check it out next time im in the us

3-Yes: Initial was 1.081 and final was 1.004 & 1.000

4- I'm reading about that for the next time. Does your yeast have to be done when you do that?

5- Really not much.... I don't think it changed anything.

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I'm really worried about bottle bombs for you. At an OG of 1.081, and that yeast strain, the FG should be more like .990. If they are at 1.004 and 1.000, they aren't done. Where they at those readings for quite a while and totally clear?

I'd put the bottles somewhere very safe and very cold, so they don't ferment out more and blow up. Use extreme caution if you decide to drink one, and use eye protection as well when you open it.

I've had ciders finish much higher than 1.000. I think my last batch settled in around 1.012. I wouldn't be too worried about the FG as long as you gave it plenty of time to ferment.

I've also used ec-1118 with good luck. You can ferment at a pretty low temperature with it, so i usually put the must in my basement and let it ferment in the mid-60s. Its nice and slow and does a great job.

Yooper is right......there is no way EC1118 should finish over 1.00 on it's own with an OG of 1.081.

Yooper said:

I'm really worried about bottle bombs for you. At an OG of 1.081, and that yeast strain, the FG should be more like .990. If they are at 1.004 and 1.000, they aren't done. Where they at those readings for quite a while and totally clear?

I'd put the bottles somewhere very safe and very cold, so they don't ferment out more and blow up. Use extreme caution if you decide to drink one, and use eye protection as well when you open it.

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I guess all thos pirate costume eye patches will finally come in handy
The SGs were at that reading for a couple of weeks... but ill keep my eyes open.... and far away from the bottle opening.

roadymi said:

Yooper is right......there is no way EC1118 should finish over 1.00 on it's own with an OG of 1.081.

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Keep in mind that this is apple juice from freshly squeezed/picked apples. Perhaps that batch was sweeter than it should.

45_70sharps said:

You made Bud-cider!

Has alcohol but lacking that flavor you were looking for.

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Bud-cider?

A friend had a batch with a similar outcome. It had a delicious apple aroma. It tasted exactly like water.

A group of us started about 5 batches the same evening. We all used different blends of apples and juices. But we shared the same yeast starter...safale US-05...I believe. I don't remember the SG but they were all similar. We were planning on fast ciders.

The biggest difference I remember is that she had left hers in primary for about 3 or 4 months. It was the wierdest thing.

roadymi said:

Yooper is right......there is no way EC1118 should finish over 1.00 on it's own with an OG of 1.081.

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Richelle said:

Keep in mind that this is apple juice from freshly squeezed/picked apples. Perhaps that batch was sweeter than it should.

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Richelle,

From my experience, Yooper is almost always right. I only say almost because I haven't read every post she has ever put up, but everything I have read has been bang on.

Your OG of 1.081 tells us how sweet this juice was and as such tells us that you are currently looking at about 11% ABV in your cider. Since you have such a high percentage of alcohol in your cider, that means that you should have a lower FG reading when you are done.

The specific gravity of water is 1.000, and the sugars in your cider boost this number up to 1.081. As the sugars ferment you lose the SG boost the sugar gave your cider, and it drops closer to the 1.000 mark. However you are also creating alcohol, which has a much lower SG than water. So with about 11-12% alcohol in your cider, your SG will drop even further.

Now since you have EC1118 yeast in you cider, this means that your yeast has a high alcohol tolerance. You can expect EC1118 to keep going to about 18% ABV if they are provided with enough sugar.

Your cider has about 11% ABV in it and SGs of 1.00 and 1.004, this tells us that you still have fermentable sugars in your cider and not enough alcohol to stop the EC1118 yeast from fermenting your cider further. THIS is why Yooper is right and you should be careful about bottle bombs.

I hope this post helps; I don’t want you to get yourself hurt.


P.S. – It is nice to see another Canadian on here! I hope you keep up the brewing, it is a lot of fun.

Devo9 said:

Your cider has about 11% ABV in it and SGs of 1.00 and 1.004, this tells us that you still have fermentable sugars in your cider and not enough alcohol to stop the EC1118 yeast from fermenting your cider further. THIS is why Yooper is right and you should be careful about bottle bombs.

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Thank you for your post. Since I used Potassium Sorbate (1tsp/23L) & Metabisulphite (1/4tsp /23L), shouldn't that have done the trick and killed off the rest of the yeast?

Richelle said:

Thank you for your post. Since I used Potassium Sorbate (1tsp/23L) & Metabisulphite (1/4tsp /23L), shouldn't that have done the trick and killed off the rest of the yeast?

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No. Neither kill yeast.

Wine yeast is tolerant of sulfites- that's why winemakers use it all the time.

Sorbate inhibits yeast reproduction. What that means is, when a cider is completely clear and no longer throwing lees and fermentation is finished, the cider is racked onto the sorbate (1/2 teaspoon per gallon, so much more than you used). This doesn't kill the yeast, but keeps it from reproduction so fermentation can't restart.

Adding sorbate to an active fermentation won't do a thing, as the yeast doesn't have to reproduce as there are literally hundreds of billions of them already.

You didn't use enough sorbate, plus fermentation wasn't done. That's two huge errors.

Your cider, with that yeast, should ferment to .990. That means bottle bombs.

Yooper, great info.

I've got a similar question. I'm using Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast. I started with SGs around 1.060 in 3 1-gallon batches. The specs tell me it's tolerant up to 13-15%. I have a potential alc% of 7.8% - when do I bottle my cider?? I wanted to pull it at 1.002-1.008, so it wasn't too dry. Is this too early? Can't I just bottle, let it carbonate then cold crash?