When to use US-05 vs. S-04?

After brewing several batches with both US-05 and S-04, one distinct thing that I've noticed about the 04 vs. the 05 is that the 04 compacts incredibly well and practically paints itself to the bottom of bottles. So I'm wondering, has anyone found any styles of beer where they really feel the US-05 is a much better choice? Otherwise I might just stick with the S-04 from now on.

Edit: Sorry, wrong forum section.

StophJS said:

After brewing several batches with both US-05 and S-04, one distinct thing that I've noticed about the 04 vs. the 05 is that the 04 compacts incredibly well and practically paints itself to the bottom of bottles. So I'm wondering, has anyone found any styles of beer where they really feel the US-05 is a much better choice? Otherwise I might just stick with the S-04 from now on.

Edit: Sorry, wrong forum section.

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I use 04 for British Ales and 05 for American Ales. Never got more technical than that.

You'll get more bready yeast flavor with the S-04 where the US-05 is more clean. You might try Nottingham as well. It floccs well but still fairly clean but maybe not quite as crisp.

C-Rider said:

I use 04 for British Ales and 05 for American Ales. Never got more technical than that.

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04 attenuates lower and will leave more residual sweetness. Also produces esters typical of English yeast.
05 is pretty clean, attenuates very well, thus drying out the beer.
Both floc pretty well, given enough time, but being English, the 04 will drop like a brick when it's done (or sometimes not quite done).
Hope that helps.

I've never noticed a bready flavor from S-04. I haven't really paid much attention. I like darker beers and it fits my palette. Now on the other hand, I use a lot of S-05 for my american style beers.

I tend to stick with what I like and the Fermentis S-04 and S-05 have worked well for me.

HomebrewMTB mentioned Nottingham. Never tried it in beer, but it makes a kickass cider! I make gallons of it each year. SWMBO and I love the way it always turns out.

I previously thought S04 attenuates less than US05. But looking back I get close to 80% attenuation on beers mashed close to 150 with both strains.

I use SO4 if I want a little contribution to the malt/ester profile. But, for some styles like bitters, SO4 is too highly attenuating for me.

Thanks for the responses. I do really love the flocculation of S-04 but I could see how US-05 would be more appropriate for some styles.

I'm thinking about switching from us05 to using Nottingham st 59f or so for American ales where I don't want any esters... I'm running into a peachy estery thing once in a while with us05 and id like to take that out of the equation.

Us-05 tastes much better above 68 degrees than s-04 if thats an issue.

Diver165 said:

I've never noticed a bready flavor from S-04. I haven't really paid much attention. I like darker beers and it fits my palette. Now on the other hand, I use a lot of S-05 for my american style beers.

I tend to stick with what I like and the Fermentis S-04 and S-05 have worked well for me.

HomebrewMTB mentioned Nottingham. Never tried it in beer, but it makes a kickass cider! I make gallons of it each year. SWMBO and I love the way it always turns out.

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Bready probably isn't the best description but it's generally a little more noticeable flavor than US-05. S-04 is supposed to be a bit less attenuating but that can vary. As always it depends on the fermentation temp on exactly what you get out of the yeasties. I've mostly used S-04 in stouts where the flavor is less noticeable, than say a pale ale. It's not a huge night and day difference though. If doing all grain, you could adjust mash temps a bit to get whatever attenuation range you want but with extract, you get what you get.

Notty can demolish a beer, so if you are trying to shy away from dry, be wary. Like others have said US-05 for American styles, and for that matter Notty is versatile, but fairly clean at lower temps and can attenuate well. US-04 is an English strain that will finish sweeter, and add some esters especially at the higher end of the temperature range. I just pitched a 10 gallon split batch of lower gravity IPA with Notty in 5 gallons, and US-05 in the other 5 gallons.

Since no one has mentioned it yet these yeasts are from very iconic breweries, S-04 is Fullers strain and US-05 is from Sierra Nevada.

The formulation of SNPA vs ESB is not far off (in terms of hopping rate, gravity, grist) either so that really showcases the difference between these yeasts.

Cellarbrau said:

Since no one has mentioned it yet these yeasts are from very iconic breweries, S-04 is Fullers strain and US-05 is from Sierra Nevada.

The formulation of SNPA vs ESB is not far off (in terms of hopping rate, gravity, grist) either so that really showcases the difference between these yeasts.

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Citations please.

Although these yeasts may have come from the same original source, is there any information to indicate that these are indeed the exact same strain?

Um... you got me. A brewer in the UK told me so.

I think the US-05 being from chico is pretty well established.

Cellarbrau said:

Um... you got me. A brewer in the UK told me so.

I think the US-05 being from chico is pretty well established.

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I have heard over and over that the strain is of the same origin, but at this point for them to be identical would be a stretch. WLP001 for instance probably wouldn't do too well at 60°F. However, I am unfamiliar with the Wyeast 1056 version which is supposed to be the same exact strain (over a dollar more in my area, so I opt for the WLP version [having said that, I used dry yeast fro my last brew day because I did not have time to make a starter before brewing].)

I have a split batch in the ferm chamber now with US-05 in one, and Notty in the other.

I could make a 3 gallon batch and split it using WLP001, Wyeast 1056, and US-05. I would end up with a very slightly, yet close variation, but not exactly the same. Although a very sensitive palette would be necessary to distinguish the nuances; the three beers would be different in their own.

I'm not trying to get into an argument, I am simply stating that each yeast brand is different (ever so slightly) which allows brewers even more diversity and options on brew day.

Many yeast strains may derive from a similar source, yet they have mutated into their own opposed to their origin. It can be easy to say that they are the "same" while indeed they may be "similar," but they are different.

Just sayin'

Cheers!

S-04 is not from Fullers. The Fullers strain is WLP002 or 1968. S-04 is the Whitbread strain which is why many find it oddly estery.

Personally I only use S-04 in my dark beers. Stouts, porters, and browns.

For pales ales, IPAs, and my red ale I stick with US-05.

SO4 is the equivalent of WLP007

ayoungrad said:

SO4 is the equivalent of WLP007

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I have read that somewhere as well, but I think it's much closer to the regular Whitbread yeast. Dry English has a more neutral flavor profile and attenuates more.

sudsmcgee said:

Us-05 tastes much better above 68 degrees than s-04 if thats an issue.

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That's a big deal to me!

I will often use S04 if my fermentation temperatures will be under 64 degrees, as I find that it's pretty "clean" at cool temperatures but if it gets the least bit above 65, it does get the typical English esters. Ironically, S05 can throw a few esters UNDER 64 degrees! But stays really clean over 65 degrees.

I do love the way S04 clears a beer so that I get crystal clear beer in a week using it.

I use S04 in several American IPAs, I just really have to control the fermentation temperature.

ArcaneXor said:

I have read that somewhere as well, but I think it's much closer to the regular Whitbread yeast. Dry English has a more neutral flavor profile and attenuates more.

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If you look on Mr. Malty's strain guide (Yeast Strains), he lists WLP007 as whitbread dry = dry english ale yeast. And from my experience, I get up to 80% AA.

Cellarbrau said:

Since no one has mentioned it yet these yeasts are from very iconic breweries, S-04 is Fullers strain and US-05 is from Sierra Nevada.

The formulation of SNPA vs ESB is not far off (in terms of hopping rate, gravity, grist) either so that really showcases the difference between these yeasts.

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Huh? Really?! Everyone knows us-05 is the Chico strain, but did you make the rest up as you typed it? And c'mon, have you ever drank SNPA or fuller's ESB? There's more than just a difference in yeast there.

Cellarbrau said:

Um... you got me. A brewer in the UK told me so..

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Riiiiiight! Inside info noone else knows.

dannypo said:

S-04 is not from Fullers. The Fullers strain is WLP002 or 1968. S-04 is the Whitbread strain which is why many find it oddly estery.

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^this is more accurate. Wyeast 1968 is practically named after fuller's and nothing like s-04 or 1098/99.

ayoungrad said:

If you look on Mr. Malty's strain guide (Yeast Strains), he lists WLP007 as whitbread dry = dry english ale yeast. And from my experience, I get up to 80% AA.

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Still think it's closer to 1098 than 007. It normally attenuates around 75%, but does go higher on occasion. But who knows...

ArcaneXor said:

Still think it's closer to 1098 than 007. It normally attenuates around 75%, but does go higher on occasion. But who knows...

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The funny thing is that if you scroll down on that link, WLP007 is listed as equivalent to WYeast 1098.

US-05 = American Styles
Us-04 = British Styles

As usual Revvy provides a good concise answer while everyone else squabbles over the details.

The details are the difference between good beer and great beer. Some of us strive to achieve a level above mediocrity. Please squabble away......

sudsmcgee said:

The details are the difference between good beer and great beer. Some of us strive to achieve a level above mediocrity. Please squabble away......

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Agreed. No harm in discussing these issues..

StophJS said:

Thanks for the responses. I do really love the flocculation of S-04 but I could see how US-05 would be more appropriate for some styles.

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I like the flavors I get with s-04 and I want it to floc out fast. If I finish high, that's okay by me. I also bumped up the grain bill. This is just my test run anyways, until my yg01 arrives and I can order Pearl and Apollo.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I can't get apollo at either of my LHBS's. Looks like I'll just swap it with more Columbus. I am pretty sure I'll make damn good beer, even with my substitutes. Very much looking forward to having everything on hand to do the 4.0 clone to the tee, though.

Edit: Ooops. Replied to wrong thread. Couldn't figure out how to delete it.

I've used us-05 twice, first little rye irish red ale, second american wheat hop bomb. Spent a couple of weeks in primary, a couple of weeks in secondary and dropped out ok in both but it is easily roused in bottle I've found. I'm fermenting a s-04 best bitter now and it seems done in 2 days. Temp is easily 69-76f though so let you know how terrible the beer is. Actually I bet I'll like it, after about 3 months in bottle and a good chill (usually store cool, then fridge 3-7 days before serving) it'll be cleaner.

Beer was pretty much done within a day but left in primary for a week. Racked to secondary today and hit with gelatin just because, but don't feel it needed it. Beer is clear, dry as anything, tastes crisp and clean and formed a hard, compact cake. Weather has risen as high as 88F over the last week, but I'm sure it was long done by then.

I'm pretty sure s-04 is the Whitbread strain, I only use it for English styles. I use us-05 for everything else except Belgian (t-58) and non-American wheat beers (wb-06 or Dansatar Munich). And even though Scotland is on the same land-mass as England, I think us-05 is a better choice for Scottish ales, it lets the malt really shine and doesnt really throw yeasty flavors. Occasionally I'll make a hybrid German style with S-23 lager yeast but us-05 is good for that too.

Yooper said:

That's a big deal to me!

I will often use S04 if my fermentation temperatures will be under 64 degrees, as I find that it's pretty "clean" at cool temperatures but if it gets the least bit above 65, it does get the typical English esters. Ironically, S05 can throw a few esters UNDER 64 degrees! But stays really clean over 65 degrees.

I do love the way S04 clears a beer so that I get crystal clear beer in a week using it.

I use S04 in several American IPAs, I just really have to control the fermentation temperature.

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Thanks for the info concerning fermentation temp comparisons.
It validates my recent 6 gal batch outcome. I had to loan one of my refrigerators to my daughter. This resulted in me having to hijack my ferm chamber/chest freezer for food. I brewed a version of the incredible Zombie Dust Clone and used S-05 with inside the house temperatures of 70 degrees. Got a dryer beer with more grapefruit than the S-04 from previous batches. Of course this was a preliminary taste from the gravity measurement jar. We will see after the second fermentation and four oz of C dryhops. My all time favorite clone recipe and just getting better or at least enjoyably variable as I tweak this great and well proven recipe.
Gratitudes!

Sevenal said:

Thanks for the info concerning fermentation temp comparisons.
It validates my recent 5 gal batch outcome. I had to loan one of my refrigerators to my daughter. This resulted in me having to hijack my ferm chamber/chest freezer for food. I brewed a version of the incredible Zombie Dust Clone and used S-05 with inside the house temperatures of 70 degrees. Got a dryer beer with more grapefruit than the S-04 from previous batches. Of course this was a preliminary taste from the gravity measurement jar. We will see after the second fermentation and four oz of C dryhops. My all time favorite clone recipe and just getting better or at least enjoyably variable as I tweak this great and well proven recipe.
Gratitudes!

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What kind of fermentable will you be adding to get a second fermentation? If you aren't adding a fermentable it is arguably better to dry hop in the primary fermenter.

Expanding my options and exploring the nuances of creative brewing methodology. I had the medium gravity 6 gal batch fermenting for 21 days and have always popped the lid and dry hopped after active fermentation. This time I thought I would dry hop in a clean secondary for 5 days.
A couple things motivated this, wanting to rinse the yeast without the additional hop matter and the hops are over a year old and I wanted to capture a more recent dry hop exposure just prior to kegging. I usually don’t do a second fermentation at all. Make any sense to anyone?

OK so another necro on this old thread. I'm planning an IRA and I've got the grain bill and hops down to what I'd like it to be. The yeast though...

I see a TON of recipes recommending US-05 as the preferred yeast for this beer. It's been pointed out that S-04 might be a better chance, specially because it is supposed to not attenuate that far. However, I've had numerous ales ferment down to 1.006 with S-04. Yes, they were mashed really low for extended times, but I don't want my IRA to end anywhere near there.

I'm hoping for my IRA to stop around 1.012, down from 1.050 in the recipe I'm planning. For that I want to mash a lot higher, but it still doesn't answer my question.

What yeast would be best for this beer? I'm leaning toward S-04, but I'm not sure.

Oh yes, and as another PS, I also haven't experienced this rapid dropping clear with S-04 as explained here. And I've made a ton of beers with S-04 lately.

Toxxyc said:

OK so another necro on this old thread. I'm planning an IRA and I've got the grain bill and hops down to what I'd like it to be. The yeast though...

I see a TON of recipes recommending US-05 as the preferred yeast for this beer. It's been pointed out that S-04 might be a better chance, specially because it is supposed to not attenuate that far. However, I've had numerous ales ferment down to 1.006 with S-04. Yes, they were mashed really low for extended times, but I don't want my IRA to end anywhere near there.

I'm hoping for my IRA to stop around 1.012, down from 1.050 in the recipe I'm planning. For that I want to mash a lot higher, but it still doesn't answer my question.

What yeast would be best for this beer? I'm leaning toward S-04, but I'm not sure.

Oh yes, and as another PS, I also haven't experienced this rapid dropping clear with S-04 as explained here. And I've made a ton of beers with S-04 lately.

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IRA means Irish red ale? If so, don't use s04, it is a great stout yeast if you like it a bit fruitier, but an Irish red should be fairly clean imo. So use something clean, even 3470 warm would be a good choice. Nottingham comes also to mind, but Keep it a bit cooler. 05 should also work. I like 04, but only for stouts. I recently brewed a test ale at 16c with only base malt and bittering hops to really be able to evaluate s04 at the lower end of it's temperature range. I got a tiny bit of sulphur there and the rest also did not impress me much. So in other words, fermenting a stout at room temperature with it is a marvelous idea. For other beers,I got other yeasts.


Just in case you meant Indian red ale, that could work. Depending on your hops and how they play along with the fruity esters when fermented at the upper part of the temperature range (don't go low with it, it's just boring and doesn't bring any positive impact).

I meant Irish Red Ale, yes. I like the idea of US-05 because it's clean, but on the other hand S-04 should leave a bit more residual sweetness, which I think will highlight the malty flavours very nicely. Or am I approaching it wrong here?

I would use the 04 for the Irish Red Ale the 05 will make it more dry and I would prefer it to be more sweet but it's preference you can use either strain they wont ruin your beer.

Toxxyc said:

I meant Irish Red Ale, yes. I like the idea of US-05 because it's clean, but on the other hand S-04 should leave a bit more residual sweetness, which I think will highlight the malty flavours very nicely. Or am I approaching it wrong here?

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I would just mash higher and use 05. I don't think that the esters of 04 are good for an Irish red...