Secondaries are for sucks! (eh?)

Okay, I have decided. As an ale brewer I am forgoing the "secondary" or clearing vessel from now on! Lately most of my best beers have only been in one vessel and in for about 3 weeks at that. Which really is great on many levels... No more being bogged down in having to wait for a sceondary to free up (which lead to this revelation).

I think the results are excellent. I still get crystal clear beers (okay so the stout does not count), they taste much better, and one even one an award. Less time cleaning/ sanitizing/racking. I think I really can stand behind the theory that the yeast requires time to "clean-up" after the initial fermentation.

No more 1-2-3 for me. Just thought I would share my thoughts. Your results may vary...

I use 1-2-3 just because I haven't been doing this long enough to try another way. Although for my hefe's I do 2 weeks primary and then into the bottle.

I also like to pitch onto previous yeast cakes and I don't want to wait weeks for the primary to free up.

To each his/her own. I've got 11 vessels in all, so it's rare that I worry about carboy space. I like to rack to secondary for a few reasons:

• I don't have to be as careful when racking to the bottling bucket, because the trub is minimal.
• I dryhop and add oak periodically, and if I want to harvest the yeast from the primary, that screws that up.
• I often age my high-grav beers in carboy for months before bottling; I don't want my beer sitting on the yeast for that long.
• I ferment in large vessels; with extended aging, I would worry about the headspace.

I voted for the 1-2-3 method because that's the closest to what I use. I don't use any set method. I monitor the beer during its primary and when I see the kreusen fall and the airock activity slows way, way down I rack to a secondary. I leave it in the secondary for...um..."a while" and then bottle. If it's a big beer or a stout, longer in the secondary, if it's a pale ale or a brown ale, shorter in the secondary. Oh, and my hefe never sees a secondary.

I voted long primary (2 weeks max). I also crash cool it to 39 degrees for a couple days before kegging. My beers are clear without using any finings or scottish moss.

My Stone IPA Clone is on the right. The real Stone on the Left.

I started using gelatin in my secondary and my beers are completely cleared (depending on the yeast strain) within 5-7 days.

You'll get yeast cleared out in a primary alone, but think of it like this:

A 20x20 room with 50 people crammed inside. Now, ask everyone to clear the room as fast as possible through the two exits. Pretty slow going...

Now, instantly remove about 40 of those people and then ask the remaining 10 to clear the room as fast as possible...takes no time at all.

Moving your beer into a secondary speeds up the clarifying process by leaving behind about 90% of the yeast and creating a much less concentrated (or crowded) environment, making it easier for the yeast to fall out. IMHO.

EDWORT - When we gonna see this recipe???

I keg after 3-4 weeks in the fermenter. I rack the occasional barleywine and once in a while filter keg to keg.

BierMuncher said:

A 20x20 room with 50 people crammed inside. Now, ask everyone to clear the room as fast as possible through the two exits. Pretty slow going...

Now, instantly remove about 40 of those people and then ask the remaining 10 to clear the room as fast as possible...takes no time at all.

Moving your beer into a secondary speeds up the clarifying process by leaving behind about 90% of the yeast and creating a much less concentrated (or crowded) environment, making it easier for the yeast to fall out. IMHO.

Click to expand...

Hey Munch, just curious whether you've seen any science behind this, or whether it's truly "IMHO"? I've searched and can't find anything. I always kinda figured that the yeast get tired, and then gravity gets them, and that wouldn't depend on how many other yeasties were around but I really don't know.

EDWORT - When we gonna see this recipe???

Click to expand...

I though he said in another thread it was an AHS kit, maybe?

I am going to be using 1-2-3 method until I get the hang of how things go. The exception will be SWMBO's hefe as I have heard of others having great results with primary only on hefes.

I'm not a big fan of secondaries myself. In my experience, the beer is just as clear after 3 weeks in the primary as 1 week in the primary and 2 in the secondary.

BierMuncher said:

EDWORT - When we gonna see this recipe???

Click to expand...

I posted it back on the 3rd of July. Here it is.

I had some extract brewers from the neighborhood over yesterday and they put a good dent in the keg. I need to get some bottled for entering into some competitions before it blows. 10 gallons next time! :cross:

My current batch I decided to leave in the primary for a extended time (2 to 3 weeks) then do like Edwort and crash cool to 39 degrees before I bottle. Just not sure how long I should leave at 39 degrees... was thinking about a 1 week. Then bottle condition for 2 or 3 weeks, depending on how long I kept it in primary... to end up with 6 weeks total...

I think it is also worth remembering that the use of a secondary can be for different purposes, and that influences the decision of whether or not one is required:

1. Bright (clearing) vessel -- if you are concerned about making very clear beer, and secondary is very useful. However, if you are careful racking from the primary, and especially if you keg or store your bottles for extended periods, then using a secondary vessel probably isn't required to fulfill this purpose. (Note: alternatively, one could also use finings to clear beer, too.)

2. Bulk conditioning -- many higher gravity beers and/or dark beers (like porters and stouts) benefit from extended aging. Many people have noticed that leaving the beer on a yeast cake in the secondary is beneficial. If you are bottling, there is less yeast per unit volume of beer, which may slow down the process or fundamentally change the conditioning process, so a secondary vessel (could also be a keg) could be desirable.

3. Storage -- if you need to store your beer prior to kegging or bottling (say none are free), secondaries are useful places to store your beer. The risk of contamination when racking to a secondary may often outweigh the risk of off flavours from spoiled yeast/trub (autolysis and related concerns).

4. Beer style -- some beer styles (e.g., wits or hefes) require yeast in suspension to add to the flavour profile. In these cases, it would not be beneficial to do any of the above, and a secondary should be avoided.

There are probably some other considerations I have missed, but those are the main ones I could come up with.

(EDIT) 5. Post-ferment additions -- Monster Mash points out below that secondaries are a convenient place to dry hop, add oak chips, fruit additions, etc. Missed that one in my original list.

Since I have made serious turn in this hobby (all grain, buying carboys, etc.), I have been doing secondary for two weeks or so. Recently though I have been considering not doing it because it is such a pain in the ass.

I hear a lot of people say they make great beers without secondary, no doubt you can make great award winning beer without a secondary (even lagers!). But, how many of you here that skip secondary bottle? It seems to me that most keg. Which, honestly, is like a secondary...let it sit for a couple weeks then suck the crud right of the bottom.

You left out an option in the poll. There are many people that only secondary beers that require dry hopping, oak chips or other additions.

Since I brew 25 gallon batches and my fermenters take up an entire fridge I secondary in kegs and transfer into clean kegs as I need them so I do secondary my beer but just not in a secondary fermenter unless Im dry hopping.

The only beer I don't use a clearing tank on is, my wit. I like to age the beer for a few weeks off the yeast cake.

I only secondary if I'm using brett. Otherwise 3ish weeks in the primary is good enough for award winning beer.

I generally do two weeks and two weeks before kegging. However, I have found that when I have a back up of beers in the secondary and they end up aging for 6 weeks or more, they come out extra good for some reason. Usually the beer bodies up really well and sometimes starts to lightly carbonate on its own in the secondary...

1 - I never secondary, 21 days minimum in the primary unless the particular batch needs more. Crystal clear in keg after a week, bottles after 30 days or so.

2 - Do wits really need yeast in suspension? I think that is a misnomer.

3 - I dry hop and put oak chips into the primary at whatever point I desire.

Some believe the beer needs pulled off the yeast at the earliest possible minute. I don't believe it and don't do it and the proof is in the good beer!

For most normal ales, I like the 2 - 2 - keg option. Two weeks in the primary gives the yeast enough time to clean up the mess and start flocculating. It can be faster if you are on top of things but a week in the primary after you hit FG really cleans up the flavor profile. Many anxious brewers (pro & am) make the mistake of racking as soon as fermentation stops and end up with the classic off flavors. The next two weeks off the yeast is good for dry hopping and it pretty much clears it up for bottling or kegging. If you are not dry hopping, the bright tank can be skipped but you end up with more sediment in the bottle/keg. Big beers get several weeks or months in the secondary to condition.

knipknup said:

2 - Do wits really need yeast in suspension? I think that is a misnomer.

Click to expand...

I think it's a starch haze with wit beers, a yeast haze is for wiesse beers.

knipknup said:

Do wits really need yeast in suspension? I think that is a misnomer.

Click to expand...

I have always thought so. If you read the back label of Hoegaarden it actually tells you to swirl the bottle to re-suspend the yeast and pour it into your glass.

Monster Mash said:

You left out an option in the poll. There are many people that only secondary beers that require dry hopping, oak chips or other additions.

Since I brew 25 gallon batches and my fermenters take up an entire fridge I secondary in kegs and transfer into clean kegs as I need them so I do secondary my beer but just not in a secondary fermenter unless Im dry hopping.

Click to expand...

Actually I am thinking I will even dry hop in primary after the initial fermentation subsides. Say, after 10 days I will add the hops than wait for those to settle out (I use pellets and no bag) before bottling. I figure once the co2 activity is minimal there will be less chance of scrubbing away the hop flavor aroma with the co2 emmision.


Wow, guess I hit a hot topic! Yeah, I am not saying this method is the best or only way, just came to a conclusion that it works for me. Intially when I started I only used a primary and my beers were great despite not using way too short of a total ferment (10 days max!) Somewhere along the way I started having some bad beers and one of the things I tried was switching to the 1-2-3 method. It was okay for a while but in the end it did not turn out to be th solution but possible a new problem spot.

Great discussion though folks. Lot's to think about. Thanks!

I used to secondary every beer, then I stopped for the following reasons:

1) I read some posts, here at HBT, about how some folks had decided to do an extended primary and forgo the secondary
2) I heard Jamil Z. indicate that he does not secondary
3) It was an extra step and another piece of equipment to clean

I now secondary only for the following:

1) When adding special ingredients, such as oak or peppers
2) On high grav beers that require extended conditioning.

I currently let the brew sit in primary for 3 weeks (longer on high grav beers), then bottle or keg and let condition for 3 weeks (again, longer for high grav beers).

I am actually happier with my beer now, than I was when I was using secondary fermenters. Maybe it is an an actual improvement in my beer or maybe it is just in my head, but I think the flavors I get are more rounded and developed.

Stumbling on this thread has been enlightening to say the least. I was doing a search for "how long in secondary" and found this.

I am an extract brewer for now and have made some good beers but nothing really exceptional. Most of my beers have a slight "off" flavor that is hard to describe (which I think all flavors and smells are hard to do so). It is an aftertaste that lingers a bit. Tastes a bit "yeasty" or "skunky". It does tend to get better with age but never goes away per se.

It appears that maybe I am removing the beer too soon from the primary. I generally brew on a weekend and then check it the following weekend. If the gravity is where it should be, I rack it to a secondary and leave it there for 2 weeks. I have just gotten into kegging so generally I keg it, carb it, drink it.

When you all say bigger beers, are you referring to OG around 1.060 and higher and would you recommend 2 weeks in primary?

I know "to each his own" but would like to make better beers (yes, I know, I have to switch to AG soon)

I let my beer sit in the primary until I'm good and ready to put it in the secondary. Just today I racked a brown ale that's been in the primary for a month. In a couple of weeks or so I'll rack to the keg. The reason I use the secondary is because there is always some sludge left in my secondary that I don't want in my keg.

I always enjoy the opportunity to vote for Ralph here, without having to worry about the "spoiler candidate" stigma, but "Ralph Nader is my fermentation vessel?"

That ain't right.

One of the best beers I ever brewed was an IPA that I put in the secondary and.....well, forgot about. After about six months, SWMBO had it sittin' by the front door when I got home from work with that "If you don't throw this out I will" look in her eye. I tasted it, and Hot Damn!

In general though, I think this thread calls for some experimentation. I do like to ba able to suck as much beer as possible out of my Primary without worrying about slurpin' a little Trub.

Bike N Brew said:

Hey Munch, just curious whether you've seen any science behind this, or whether it's truly "IMHO"? I've searched and can't find anything. I always kinda figured that the yeast get tired, and then gravity gets them, and that wouldn't depend on how many other yeasties were around but I really don't know.

Click to expand...

My only evidence is anecdotal. My primary can sit for 10 days and never really begin to "separate". Once I rack to a secondary...within hours, I begin to see that 1-2 inches of clear wort at the top of the carboy.

I gotta beleive that the "crowded" conditions in the primary cause the yeast to be so dense that they are in what seems to be an indefinite suspension. True they may be dormant and wanting to settle, but again, racking to the 2nd seems to "thin out" the herd.

I voted Nader because my usual MO wasnt listed.
I typically end up doing a 10-20 for primary-secondary. Usually 10-14 days in primary then secondary until the wife/kid/chores allow me to find the time to bottle (typically 3 weeks)

Isn't there an argument that: lack of secondary=more yeast in suspension=more potential for good bottle conditioning/carbonation?

I just bottled a sweet stout that had been in the primary for a month-it tasted pretty good at bottling (not very 'green' tasting, pretty smooth-just flat). I had wondered if enough yeast was left to carb it. Last night I saw some sediment in a bottle-so I know there's enough.

I used the same timeline (month primary->bottling) for a bigger IPA and it improved a ton once bottled-even though there was a decent amount of sediment. I guess for me one less step/chance for mishap is worth more sediment in the bottle.

I'm still learning and experimenting. My first 3 batches were 3 weeks in primary mainly because I didn't have a secondary vessel. My 4th batch is in a secondary as will be my 5th. I'll probably use both methods as the experimentation continues.

I was a secondary-only guy for a while, and like many of you i will vary my seondary conditioning time. Oak chips, dry hops, etc... secondary. Otherwise, a typical brew can clear pretty nice in the primary, plus the bottles are like mini individual secondaries. I always fill one clear bottle from each batch, and the primary-onlies get just as clear after a month or so in bottles as the secondary ones. Whatever works for you they say, but this to me is a very interesting topic and love to hear everyone's opinions and techniques.

CONICAL - no secondary

Well, fwiw, I can't really vote because I do both. My rule of thumb, for normal gravity (45 to 55) I primary for between 10 to 14 days (depending on when I can get to it) and then bottle. Conditioning is recipe dependent. Wheats, 10 days, bottle, 2 weeks conditioning, drink. High gravity Ales, depends but almost always secondaried after the beer is attenuated sufficiently (and then the time in the secondary is recipe dependent). Additions get done in secondary usually. I have not found a need to secondary everything I make.

BrewDey said:

Isn't there an argument that: lack of secondary=more yeast in suspension=more potential for good bottle conditioning/carbonation?

Click to expand...

Not that I am aware of.

joebou4860 said:

I voted Nader because my usual MO wasnt listed.
I typically end up doing a 10-20 for primary-secondary. Usually 10-14 days in primary then secondary until the wife/kid/chores allow me to find the time to bottle (typically 3 weeks)

Click to expand...

Well, I know I didn't cover every possible method. Sorry lack of imagination on my part

I said I did the 123 but I guess really my method was much more akin to yours. I started stretching primary out to 10, then 14 days due to the same wife/kid/chores reason and that is what got me thinking, hmmm, why not stretch it out more. Then I was doing 21 days and it really did not seem necessary at that point to rack over to another carboy 'cause it was ready. And, low an behold my beers are tasting better.

Anyway, that's my theory and I'm stickin' to it...

until I come up with a new one

i voted "drink as it ferments" cuz i like to take samples and they are what guides me through the fermentation. i use a secondary if i think it suits the beer or if i'm not lazy...or if i need to free up my primary.

i don't agree with the 1-2-3 method because they DO NOT work for big beers

it depends...

lately, with the heat, the ales have been getting two to three weeks in primary, then bottle them.

big beers get put in a five gallon carboy, but in the cellar and i forget about them for a six month spell or so. i've not made any thing bigger than .055 since decemeber of last year. and still have two big big beers in the cellar since about december.

darker, or more complex beers get put in the secondary for a few weeks to a month before they get bottled.

Except for wits/weizens, I always secondary. Mainly b/c I'm at the point now where I only use one or two strains of yeast and I want to either free up that yeast cake to do another batch or harvest it for future use!

I dryhop all my IPAs & APAs and you really need a secondary to do that without screwing up your yeast for future batches. And my high gravity beers will sit for one month minimum and more often, anywhere from three to six months before bottling. I cant wait that long for a primary yeast cake!