Using welded stainless steal tubing as beer line

I've been lurking around this forum for a while and it's a great resource. This is my first post, so be gentle.

I'm moving my keg fridge to the basement and running a line up to a tap on the first floor. I'm doing my best to use all stainless fittings, so part of that is that I'm planning to use stainless steel tubing as beer line. After calculating the size and length of tubing I need to balance the system it turns out I need 5/16" for stainless. The only 5/16" SS tubing I can find in decent lengths is welded. Should I have any concerns about using welded instead of seamless tubing? I'll be using flare joints but I can smooth out any rough spots after flaring. Would the weld contribute to buildup in the line or is the weld typically pretty smooth? And is the welding material just stainless steel or is there something else in it?

Here's what I'm looking at...304 Stainless 5/16"

Thanks!

Waste of money, What you need is Bev-Seal Ultra 235 tube.

FWIW those line balancing calculators and equations are relatively flawed, and I'd hate to see you spend all of the time, money, and effort on installing SS lines only to find out that they don't work for you.

Every line balancing calculator or equation I've seen is designed to result in a 1 gal/min flow rate. This works relatively well for most commercial systems, where the beer temps are always between 34° and 38°, and the carb level is usually ~2.7 vol. If you try to serve beer that's warmer or more highly carbed at that speed, you'll get a glass of foam. And as soon as you change the fluid velocity, the resistance figures that those calculators and equations rely on are no longer apply (and they're not very accurate to begin with), and the equations become useless.

The terminology used is often misleading as well. They claim to be able to calculate the "ideal" line length, but what it should say is that it calculates the line length that provides the fastest possible pour without excessive foam for systems kept very cold and pouring beer with moderate carbonation levels. The only side effect of lines that are longer than what those calculators and formulas provide is a slightly slower pour. For me, the IDEAL line length is the one that allows me to pour beer at a wide variety of temperatures and carbonation levels. I'm not running a busy bar where the number of pints I cal fill in a minute matters. If I have time to drink a beer, then I also have a couple extra seconds to wait for it to pour.

I also second the suggestion to look at accuflex bev-seal ultra lines. I have them and couldn't be happier. None of the off flavor that I got from vinyl lines, easy to clean, and they also have much lower resistance than standard vinyl lines, which would be helpful for your situation with the large vertical rise.

Thanks for both of the responses. I'm sure the bev-seal lines work great, but I'm one of those people who stays away from plastic and plastic-ish as much as possible. You're probably rolling your eyes, right? I just don't trust anything. We were told for so long that all the plastic we ate out of was safe and then it came out that BPA had some really terrible health effects. I'm pretty set on using all stainless from the keg to the tap because the beer sits in it for days at a time. So let's pretend you don't disagree with using stainless lines...any foreseeable problems with using welded tubing instead of seamless?

For me, the IDEAL line length is the one that allows me to pour beer at a wide variety of temperatures and carbonation levels.

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JuanMoore, I'm interested in hearing more about this. I don't disagree with what you're saying, but how did you figure out what YOUR ideal line length was? Trial and error or what?

That line will be fine. 5/16 stainless tubing is about 1/4" inside diameter. Not sure if you figured that. It also has less resistance than vinyl line. Good luck it's a bit hard to work with the stainless without kinking. Also have you priced out all stainless ball lock disconnects? I think they are $25 each compared to 5 for plastic. It's going to be roughy not to have any plastic. The flare connectors need plastic washers in them to seal a metal to metal connection.

a1lawng said:

Thanks for both of the responses. I'm sure the bev-seal lines work great, but I'm one of those people who stays away from plastic and plastic-ish as much as possible. You're probably rolling your eyes, right? I just don't trust anything. We were told for so long that all the plastic we ate out of was safe and then it came out that BPA had some really terrible health effects. I'm pretty set on using all stainless from the keg to the tap because the beer sits in it for days at a time. So let's pretend you don't disagree with using stainless lines...any foreseeable problems with using welded tubing instead of seamless?

JuanMoore, I'm interested in hearing more about this. I don't disagree with what you're saying, but how did you figure out what YOUR ideal line length was? Trial and error or what?

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I'm not rolling my eyes. I'm sensitive to many of the toxins from outgassing plastics, and vinyl is one of the worst, which is why I did a ton of research and ended up using the accuflex bev-seal. If it were more practical and less costly I might have gone with SS myself.

The welded SS should work fine. SS lines of any type will be a PITA to install, and you'll constantly be trying to avoid kinking them every time you change a keg out, but you probably already knew that.

And I just used really long lines, not really much trial and error. Like I said, the only downside to longer lines is a slightly slower pour, so by making the lines longer that I thought I'd ever need for any beer, they're the "ideal" length for me. Could I shorten them and still get a good pour? Sure, but what if I decide to bump the temp of my keezer up a few degrees, or try serving a belgian or saison at 4.0 vol? And since line resistance can vary substantially between manufacturers or even between production runs, what if the estimate you used for your calculations wasn't accurate? What if the 1 gal/min pour speed the calculators give you is too fast? My suggestion is to make your lines much longer than you think they need to be. There's no downside other than cost, and even if there was, cutting a couple feet off is way easier than trying to stretch the lines.

My suggestion is to make your lines much longer than you think they need to be. There's no downside other than cost, and even if there was, cutting a couple feet off is way easier than trying to stretch the lines.

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Thanks, JuanMoore, I'll try that. I'll have extra from the coil I'm buying anyway, so it couldn't hurt. I can just keep the extra coiled inside the fridge and trim it if I need to. I know SS will be a pain to work with but I've picked a relatively simple locating for running the lines and I don't mind the extra work involved...as long as it all comes together in the end. And I'm sure the accuflex stuff is just fine...I just like going as natural as possible in pretty much any situation. I wish I could use wooden lines.

Also have you priced out all stainless ball lock disconnects? I think they are $25 each compared to 5 for plastic. It's going to be roughy not to have any plastic. The flare connectors need plastic washers in them to seal a metal to metal connection.

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JRems, yes I've priced out the stainless ball lock disconnects. I'm sticking with the plastic one I have for the gas but planning on using this one for the OUT disconnect. And yes, I realize I'll have to use nylon flare fitting washers and I'm okay enough with that. Just trying to go stainless as much as possible...99%.

Heading to my local shop today and will be online-ordering anything they don't have very soon. I'll do my best to take pictures and post details for anyone interested.

I think paying $30 per disconnect just to avoid incidental contact with plastic is a little overboard. Sure, there's a lot more surface area in a long run of line so I kind of agree with you there.

a1lawng said:

I'm one of those people who stays away from plastic and plastic-ish as much as possible.

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Couldn't agree more, the only thing coming in contact with my brew that isn't stainless, silicone or glass are the beer lines. Getting stainless tubing to not kink and move/flex enough to hook up kegs, especially when cold, sounds like a nightmare though. I could see having a few feet for bev tubing on the keg end to work as a flex connection and then having the hard lines to the tap. Seems like a lot of work though.

As far as the welded tubing there will likely be some not so smooth spots that could collect some gunk.

Ok, well here's an idea. Use stainless for the long runs and add a short piece of braided silicone at the keg end.

I think paying $30 per disconnect just to avoid incidental contact with plastic is a little overboard.

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Bobby_M, I don't disagree that it's a little overboard, but that's the way it is for me. I don't use any plastic or teflon or anything synthetic in my kitchen at home, and I'm trying to do the same with my beer. I actually found the disconnect I was looking at for $19 so that's not too bad, but I hear you. It's just worth it to me. I do realize I'll have to use nylon flare washers, but I can live with that because there's no alternative. Of course, if someone told me I could use tree bark instead of nylon, I'd try that instead.

Ok, well here's an idea. Use stainless for the long runs and add a short piece of braided silicone at the keg end.

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Not a bad idea, but I'm really trying to stick with stainless. I'm not crazy enough, though, to think I'll be able to run a single continuous line from my keg, through my fridge, up through the wall, and up to my tap. That would be way to hard to work with if I ever need to pull anything apart or make adjustments to the line. My plan is to run a continuous line from the tap down to just above the fridge in the basement, then have a stainless flare union above the fridge for an easy way to disconnect. Then I can coil up any extra tubing inside the fridge and that should allow at least slight flexibility when working with the ball lock disconnect or anything else with the keg.

Couldn't agree more, the only thing coming in contact with my brew that isn't stainless, silicone or glass are the beer lines.

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Right on, brewingmeister. I'm working on making my entire brewing process stainless & glass only. Someday we'll be the only ones who don't lose all our teeth or grow ears on our necks because of all the plastic everyone comes in contact with all day every day. As far as the difficulties of working with rigid line, read the response I just posted in the paragraph above. I'm hoping the way I'm setting it up will allow for at least a tiny bit of flexibility. The line I'm running from the keg to the tap is a pretty straight run, so it should hopefully only need 2 or 3 bends when all is said and done.

How do you plan on keeping the line that runs in the wall cold???

I'm planning to start with a small pump in a bucket of water in my fridge. A 1/2" ID poly line will be tightly wrapped with my beer line and then the beer & glycol lines will be wrapped in insulation. I anticipate this not working well enough and having to try something more substantial (expensive) like a glycol pump with a separate cooling source. I'm just trying this first to know that it doesn't work before moving to another solution. Running low on build money at this point.

This guy has a pretty nice setup.

The more I think about this the more I like the idea of stainless lines. 1/4'' tube seems more on par with bev lines though and it's smaller so it should be easier to shape. Seems like bending without kinking and finding fittings is where the frustration is going to come from...

Rigid Tube Bender http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/400-Series-Lever-Benders/EN/index.htm will be your best friend if you decide to go with stainless lines.

The more I think about this the more I like the idea of stainless lines. 1/4'' tube seems more on par with bev lines though and it's smaller so it should be easier to shape.

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You're coming around, brewingmeister.

Keep in mind that the stainless lines are measured in OD. So the ID a 5/16" SS line is really 5/16 minus the wall width. The one I'm looking at is thin wall (.020"), so the ID is .3125" - .040", so .2725"...pretty close to the .265" ID of the Bev-Seal Ultra 235 line that was suggested in the first reply in this thread.

DakotaPrerunner said:

Rigid Tube Bender http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/400-Series-Lever-Benders/EN/index.htm will be your best friend if you decide to go with stainless lines.

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Thanks. I'm probably going to have to find a decent flare tool, too. I have a bender and a flaring tool, but they're both pretty cheap and I wouldn't mind having better ones anyway (saying that allows me to exclude the cost from my build budget ).

5/16" O.D Stainless has a resistance of .30 psi/ft. Exactly the same as 1/4" Bev-Seal ultra 235.

Brewerforlife said:

5/16" O.D Stainless has a resistance of .30 psi/ft. Exactly the same as 1/4" Bev-Seal ultra 235.

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It seems like these numbers are all over the place. I've found several different resistance values and I've been calculating based on the numbers listed here.

Shouldn't the resistance be calculated based on the ID instead of OD since there are different wall thicknesses on different products?

Normally a trunk-line is wrapped first with a moisture barrier wrap (like saran wrap) in apperance. Then wrapped with foil tape to conduct cold transfer, then finally, a good tube insulation, preferably 3/4 inch thick!!!!!

Good info. Any idea where I can get the moisture barrier wrap? And would I really need the foil tape for cold transfer if I'm using stainless lines?

Oh, you mean the whole trunk line is wrapped with moisture barrier, then foil tape? I guess I'm confused about what the foil tape does in that case.

a1lawng said:

It seems like these numbers are all over the place. I've found several different resistance values and I've been calculating based on the numbers listed here.

Shouldn't the resistance be calculated based on the ID instead of OD since there are different wall thicknesses on different products?

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Both my Foxx and Micro-Matic catalogs list 5/16" O.D stainless at .30/ft. They both don't show the I.D measurment. But it should be close to 1/4", depending on the wall thickness.

a1lawng said:

It seems like these numbers are all over the place. I've found several different resistance values and I've been calculating based on the numbers listed here.

Shouldn't the resistance be calculated based on the ID instead of OD since there are different wall thicknesses on different products?

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I touched on this in an earlier reply, but there are a couple reasons the resistance figures are all over the place. One is that the actual resistance of a line will vary quite a bit between different brands/manufacturers, and sometimes even between different production runs at the same factory. Many of those charts just list a rough average, and some actually show a range for each type of line.

The second reason is that line resistance is not a fixed figure like those charts, calculators, and line balancing articles would lead you to believe. It's actually highly variable based on the fluid velocity. The slower the fluid velocity, the lower the resistance will be. That's why doubling the line length will only add a couple seconds to the pour rather than result in a tiny trickle from the faucet.

The problem with using those resistance figures, calculators, and equations is that they all figure a pour speed of ~1 gal/min. That works ok for commercial systems where the beer is kept extremely cold and the carb levels under ~2.9 vol, but many of us homebrewers like to serve our beer warmer, and some like to use higher carb levels for some beers. If you try to serve 45° beer or a beer carbed to 3+ vol that fast you'll end with a glass of foam. If you need to slow the flow down below 1 gal/min for any reason, all of those figures and equations become useless.

And the line resistance is absolutely calculated using the ID of the line, but they list the stainless lines by OD since that's how they're commonly referenced.

a1lawng said:

Oh, you mean the whole trunk line is wrapped with moisture barrier, then foil tape? I guess I'm confused about what the foil tape does in that case.

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The foil tape blocks radiant heat transfer to keep the trunk cooler.

How many line's are we running????

Planning to run two beer lines. Only one will be used at first but I'm planning ahead.

@a1lawng Any update on this? I'm now interested in doing stainless lines inside my keezer as my "upgraded" Ultra Barrier Silver lines tastes like plastic.

AirJordan said:

@a1lawng Any update on this? I'm now interested in doing stainless lines inside my keezer as my "upgraded" Ultra Barrier Silver lines tastes like plastic.

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Hey @AirJordan, I was able to get this all set up using stainless and it was awesome I went inside the wall, and that was difficult with such a rigid trunk line. If I were to do it again I'd definitely use SS again but I think I'd run the lines up the other side of the wall rather than inside it. I'd maybe pick a wall that has a closet or something on the other side, run the lines up the wall inside the closet, then through the wall to the taps. That would be much easier and I would provide easy access for insulating and whatever else.

Let me know if you have any specific questions. I sold the house I installed these taps in a few years ago and the taps went with it. Maybe reviving this thread will motivate me to finally put some taps in my new house!