Buttery/Cabbage'y

I realize that buttered popcorn and cooked vegetables (cabbage) is a common off flavor in homebrewing. Everything I've read on it basically says it's due to yeast issues or sanitation.

After spending months getting my tannin issues under control (I think I finally figured it out), I'm now having issues with a buttery/slick/cabbage'y aftertaste in my brews.

I just opened my pumpkin ale which I brewed back in early August. It's actually REALLY good, save for the aftertaste of cabbage/butter that I'm getting.

I'm really quite OCD when it comes to sanitation, so I'm wondering what else I could be doing wrong?

I brew 1 gallon batches, I don't use starters, and I usually pitch a little more yeast than Mr. Malty calls for (to be safe). I also primary only for 3 weeks minimum. I do not cold crash, and I bottle condition for 3 weeks minimum for medium gravity beers.

I have loads of details about my Pumpkin ale, so I'd be happy to share them and of course, offer any info on the processes I used, so please, help a brother out.

I should note that I experienced this same off flavor on one of the Bell's Two Hearted ale clones that I did back in July.

I feel like I've yet to make a beer that I've said "wow" too...and I've been brewing since January. I'm really starting to get discouraged, as for awhile it was overcarbonation, and then it was tannin extracting from too thin a mash, and now it's off flavors of cabbage and butter.

Please help

Well, the cabbage taste is DMS. If you ruled out infection, it is likely a boil/cooling issue. You want to have a good rolling boil going with the lid off. If you are having issues, a 90 minute boil can often help vs a 60. You also need to cool as quickly as possible as DMS keeps forming in hot wort.

Butter = Diacetyl. All yeast produce it, but some more than others. Diacetyl is produced early in fermentation. If you are getting a lot of it with strains that aren't known issues, then it usually because of a slow fermentation start from under-pitching or under-aerating or generally unhealthy yeast.

Cooked vegetables in your beer is a fault called DMS. How fast are you cooling your wort? What's your yeast pitch rate and what temp are you fermenting at?

billl said:

Well, the cabbage taste is DMS. If you ruled out infection, it is likely a boil/cooling issue. You want to have a good rolling boil going with the lid off. If you are having issues, a 90 minute boil can often help vs a 60. You also need to cool as quickly as possible as DMS keeps forming in hot wort.

Butter = Diacetyl. All yeast produce it, but some more than others. Diacetyl is produced early in fermentation. If you are getting a lot of it with strains that aren't known issues, then it usually because of a slow fermentation start from under-pitching or under-aerating or generally unhealthy yeast.

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To touch on your points:

I really don't think it's infection. My boil (roughly 1.75 gallons of wort) is achieved pretty quickly and definitely is a rolling boil. I always boil for 60 minutes. My cooling process takes at MOST, 15 minutes in an ice bath.

For this pumpkin ale recipe I used the following:
Wyeast London ESB Ale 1968- Per Mr. Malty- Pitch 1.3 packets. Only used 1.

And for the two hearted ale clone i made:
Wyeast American Ale II 1272- Per MrMalty, pitch 0.6 packets. Pitched about 3/4 of the packet.

These 2 beers are really the only beers I have noticed this off flavor in so far. If it's not the boil or the cooling process, could the pumpkin ale off flavor (1.079 SG) be coming from the fact that I under pitched?

Why would the two hearted ale produce this off flavor if I basically pitched MORE than Mr. Malty called for?

While "buttery" is a word I hear in conjunction with diacetyl (a byproduct of stressed/underpitched yeast), I think your issue is probably dimethyl sulfide or DMS, usually said to lend a "cooked cabbage" or "cooked corn" off-flavor.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/DMS

DMS usually comes from using a lot of underkilned malt like Pilsner malt and not boiling long enough.

Are you brewing with all grain? If so, any wort you make with a lot of Pilsner malt should be boiled for at least 90 minutes to eliminate DMS precursors and then chilled as quickly as possible. If you're brewing with extract, it should already be pre-boiled, so we may have to look elsewhere for your solution.

manoaction said:

Cooked vegetables in your beer is a fault called DMS. How fast are you cooling your wort? What's your yeast pitch rate and what temp are you fermenting at?

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I boil my wort for 60 minutes.
I cool within 15 minutes (I do 1 gallon batches)
I use Mr Malty to determine my pitch rate, and round up (example, 0.2 packets of US-05 for a 1-gallon batch, I use 0.5 packets).
I have a fermentation chamber and keep my ales at/around 64-65 degrees.

shawnbou said:

While "buttery" is a word I hear in conjunction with diacetyl (a byproduct of stressed/underpitched yeast), I think your issue is probably dimethyl sulfide or DMS, usually said to lend a "cooked cabbage" or "cooked corn" off-flavor.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/DMS

DMS usually comes from using a lot of underkilned malt like Pilsner malt and not boiling long enough.

Are you brewing with all grain? If so, any wort you make with a lot of Pilsner malt should be boiled for at least 90 minutes to eliminate DMS precursors and then chilled as quickly as possible. If you're brewing with extract, it should already be pre-boiled, so we may have to look elsewhere for your solution.

Click to expand...

Yes, I'm doing AG. Here is my recipe for the pumpkin ale I brewed and the two hearted ale:

Pumpkin Ale
Malts and Fermentables (based off of 70% efficiency)
Pale 2-Row- 3.15 lb
Caramel/Crystal 60L- 0.32 lb
Special B- 0.08 lb
Dark Wheat- 0.15 lb
*Organic Pumpkin Roasted 1 hr @ 350 and cooled- 0.24 lb

*Add roasted pumpkin as mash water is nearing strike temp. When strike temp is achieved, add grains and mash in.

Hops:
Northern Brewer- 0.26 oz @ FWH
Fuggles- 0.12 oz @ 20 min.
Fuggles- 0.12 oz @ 10 min.

Misc:
1.88 oz Canned Pumpkin Pie Mix @ 30 min.
1/5 Whirlfloc tablet @ 15 min.
0.19 tablespoons of Pumpkin Pie Spice @ 5 min.
0.12 tablespoons of Pumpkin Pie Spice @ 1 min.
2 dashes of ground Nutmeg @ 1 min.
*0.25 lb Brown Sugar @ throughout the boil
Add 1/2 teaspoon of Vanilla extract after FG is reached
Add 1 teaspoon of Pumpkin Pie spice to a little water and boil. After cooled, slowly add a little at a time to primary and stir in gently until desired spice is reached (after FG is reached)
Add 1 oz of lactose to a bit of water and boil. After cooled, slowly to the primary and stir gently (after FG is reached).

*Brown sugar to be added throughout the 60 min. boil.

Yeast:
Wyeast London ESB Ale 1968- Per Mr. Malty- Pitch 1.3 packets. Only used 1.

Target SG (not including the points for roasted pumpkin and brown sugar): 1.064
My SG: 72 * 1.078 = 1.079
Target FG: 1.020
My FG: 1.022

Strike temp met at 158
Mash temp at 152
Mashed with kettle wrapped in sleeping bag for 60 min.
Checked after 60 minutes and temp was 150/151
Removed after 60 minutes and increased to 165 and covered and let sit for 10 min.
Removed bag after 10 min and squeezed out all remaining wort and dunk sparged.
Boiled 60 min adding hops/misc per above

Pitched yeast at 11:45 AM.

Put in swamp cooler to ferment at 67 for 3 weeks.

Two Hearted
Malts and Fermentables: (Based on 70% efficiency)
2.00 lb Pale 2-Row
0.36 lb Vienna Malt
0.09 lb Carapils
0.09 lb Caramel/Crystal 20L

Hops (used whole hop leaves didn't have pellets):
Centennial- 0.15 oz (used 4.2 grams) @ 60 min.
Centennial- 0.15 oz @ 15 min.
Centennial- 0.15 oz @ 5 min.
Centennial- 0.15 oz @ 1 min.

Dry Hop:
Centennial- 0.2 oz for 7 days

Misc:
1/5 Whirlfloc tablet @ 15 min.

Yeast:
Wyeast American Ale II 1272- Per MrMalty, pitch 0.6 packets

Target OG: 1.065
My OG: 69* @ 1.060 = 1.061 (achieved 66% efficiency)
Target FG: 1.017
My FG: 1.013

Strike temp met at 155
Mash temp at 150
Mashed in pre-warmed oven for 60 min.
Removed after 60 min and increased to 170 and covered and let sit for 10 min.
Removed bag after 10 min. and squeezed out all wort and brought to boil.

Added hops/misc per above.

Pitched yeast at 1:15 PM. Put in fermentation chamber to ferment 2 weeks at 65 degrees until FG is met. Then dry hop for 7 days per above.

How do you do your cooling process. If you have the lid cover on all the way while while cooling it can trap the DMS in the brew and cause off flavors. Try cracking it and letting the steam escape... also when taking the lid off try not to let the condensation drip in the brew.

The buttery is diacetyl most likely as people have said. Since you ferment in the mid 60's you might want to try a diacetyl rest and take your fermenters out of the fridge for a few days and let them warm up a little. This will help them absorb the diacetly.

Hopper5000 said:

How do you do your cooling process. If you have the lid cover on all the way while while cooling it can trap the DMS in the brew and cause off flavors. Try cracking it and letting the steam escape... also when taking the lid off try not to let the condensation drip in the brew.

The buttery is diacetyl most likely as people have said. Since you ferment in the mid 60's you might want to try a diacetyl rest and take your fermenters out of the fridge for a few days and let them warm up a little. This will help them absorb the diacetly.

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I cool my kettle uncovered in an ice bath. since it's only 1 gallon, it cools within 15 minutes.

since i brew almost every weekend, i usually pull one of my fermenters out of my fermentation chamber with a week or so to go (into the 3 week process) and let it hang out at room temperature (70ish) for the last week. i'm assuming this would be considered as a "diacetyl rest?"

Yeah that would be similar to a rest then. Not sure why you would be getting that problem then... hopefully others can chime in...

I noticed your recipes said a couple of times that you "stirred the cold wort gently" while adding a spice to it. Are you oxygenate your wort otherwise?

You should give your fermenters a vigorous shaking before or right after pitching. I splash and swish the cooled wort when it's going into the fermenter. This will give you a healthier fermentation and hopefully fight off those flavors.

You can get fancy with oxygen stones if you want, but it's important to oxygenate the wort, and it's easy to make sure the wort well shaken after it's cooled.

manoaction said:

I noticed your recipes said a couple of times that you "stirred the cold wort gently" while adding a spice to it. Are you oxygenate your wort otherwise?

You should give your fermenters a vigorous shaking before or right after pitching. I splash and swish the cooled wort when it's going into the fermenter. This will give you a healthier fermentation and hopefully fight off those flavors.

You can get fancy with oxygen stones if you want, but it's important to oxygenate the wort, and it's easy to make sure the wort well shaken after it's cooled.

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Yea, I definitely shake my carboy for about 25 seconds or so (since it's only a 1-gallon jug) to oxidize my wort, and then I pitch my yeast.
I think the stirring you're referring to is when I added my spice tincture to my pumpkin ale after FG was reached. I then let it sit for another week

Bump

So that's it? Nobody's got anything else on this?

Look, this may sound stupid, but I'm going to say it anyways, because most mistakes we make on here are stupid ones. So here goes....

I have never used WYeast, but you said you pitched "Wyeast London ESB Ale 1968- Per Mr. Malty- Pitch 1.3 packets. Only used 1."

- First, most people say that for an OG larger than 1.050, you should make a starter. Not that it's necessarily your problem, I'm just saying that's what I have heard.
- As I have never used Wyeast, I looked up an image of that yeast on google to see what it looked like and came up with this....



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Is this, or something like this, the yeast you used? Because that package says "100 billion yeast cells", according to Mr.Malty an O.G. of 1.078 (or even less 1.064), with a volume of 1 gallon, requires only 53 billion yeast cells. Therefore, if you pitched 1 package, you pitched nearly twice as much yeast as you needed, probably resulting in some serious off flavors.

Like, I said, I doubt that you made a mistake that silly, but you never know. So I thought I'd post it anyways.

Maybe a pic of the yeast you used would help?

jwalk4 said:

Look, this may sound stupid, but I'm going to say it anyways, because most mistakes we make on here are stupid ones. So here goes....

I have never used WYeast, but you said you pitched "Wyeast London ESB Ale 1968- Per Mr. Malty- Pitch 1.3 packets. Only used 1."

- First, most people say that for an OG larger than 1.050, you should make a starter. Not that it's necessarily your problem, I'm just saying that's what I have heard.
- As I have never used Wyeast, I looked up an image of that yeast on google to see what it looked like and came up with this....



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Is this, or something like this, the yeast you used? Because that package says "100 billion yeast cells", according to Mr.Malty an O.G. of 1.078 (or even less 1.064), with a volume of 1 gallon, requires only 53 billion yeast cells. Therefore, if you pitched 1 package, you pitched nearly twice as much yeast as you needed, probably resulting in some serious off flavors.

Like, I said, I doubt that you made a mistake that silly, but you never know. So I thought I'd post it anyways.

Maybe a pic of the yeast you used would help?

Click to expand...

Here's a picture of the yeast I used:



Your point about 100 billion yeast cells in the package makes sense. However, why did Mr Malty tell me that I needed 1.3 packets (without a starter)? If I pitched 1, how would that be overpitching? I realize from a "yeast cell" standpoint it may have been, but are you saying that the information that Mr Malty spits out may not be always accurate?

Just so I know we are on the same page, http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html <- this is the website you used right?

When I plug in: 1.078 OG; 1.0 Volume U.S. Gallon; 97% viability; I get 53 Billion Yeast cells, or .6 of a vial or package needed without starter. If we are talking dry yeast, which WYeast is not (I don't think), I still get 53 billion yeast cells which is 3 grams of dry yeast.

I like mr. malty, but for your next brew, try and go by yeast cell count. I'm not saying it'll fix your problem,but at the very least, it'll give you something to look forward to so you won't be discouraged!

Maybe because of the pumpkin you could or should maybe have done a longer mash or boil possibly. And what kind of pumpkin spiced premix did you add,did it have preservative/additive junk in it? I know only 2 oz is not much though. I think the buttery/diacytal would be from the london yeast(I dont know though I never used that but alot of those stains are known for diayctal.
PUmpkin can add a slickness to body also that is common.
Do you check your mash ph, I have those strips which come in handy,it gives me control of if I need to add salts to my water.You use filtered water?Spring?
Is it possible the vegetale taste may just be from the pumpkin taste?
HOw cool are you getting your wort before pitching and are you aerating/adding oxygen once it cools before pitching?

jonmohno said:

I think the buttery/diacytal would be from the london yeast(I dont know though I never used that but alot of those stains are known for diayctal.

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This is also true, Yooper mentioned this in another Diacytel related thread. "Some English strains have notable diacetyl production, and I've had issues with it in some lager strains and even a hybrid lager strain (San Francisco lager yeast)." (Yooper, post #13 https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/buttery-bad-taste-320784/index2.html)