First AG with terrible mash efficiency

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freeflydude

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I brewed a potentially big beer a couple days ago with estimated pre-boil gravity at about 1.080 from 14.77 lbs grain. After draining the pre-boil gravity was a dismal 1.040 at about 140 degrees. With temperature correction I think that gets me to about 1.055. I've read several posts since about efficiency and have a few ideas about what went wrong but would like any suggestions for improvement. My process and equipment:

MLT - 10 gal round cooler w/ FB
1. 170 strike water in MLT.
2. Added grains to water (I've seen posts that say add water to grain so would like comments on this on whether to add grain to water or water to grain, and why...)
3. Mash at 157-152 for 75 minutes stirring every 15 minutes (75 minute mash for Pilsen based malt)
4. Vorlauf and fly sparge with 170 degree water. Probably only took 15-20 minutes to drain which I now know was too fast.

From what I've seen posted here's where I think I messed up, I should have slowed down on the sparge and used water at a higher temp closer to 200. I also think my grain crush was not good which might have been the biggest contributor. The HBS did the crush and my initial runnings were really clear so seems to be a likely cause. Overall when I look back I think a better crush and slower sparge at 200 would have yielded much better results. Any suggestions for next batch would be greatly appreciated. I would like to improve my efficiency to be in the 75 range or better.
 
Oh yeah, strike 4.5 gal, sparge 4.5 gal, pre-boil volume 6.5 gal, post-boil 5.5 gal
 
Sparge for at least an hour, get a better crush for your grain, add half of your mash water to the cooler then your grains and the remaining water, mash out at lower temps at the 148-150 range to get more fermentables and less dextrins, try a mash out before sparging, and buy a brewing software like beersmith to help with your calculations.
 
ATXbrew just used an orbital strike on this post and wiped out the local populations. Sparge for an hour? In general I have always done it for about 20 minutes so maybe I'm missing something. I have also had some efficiency issues recently so I'll look into these tips.
 
ATXbrew just used an orbital strike on this post and wiped out the local populations. Sparge for an hour? In general I have always done it for about 20 minutes so maybe I'm missing something. I have also had some efficiency issues recently so I'll look into these tips.

For typical AG batches of 5 gallons it is necessary to have a sparge time of at least an hour no matter how much sparge water you are using. This time is essential for the sparge water to properly rinse the grains of all sugars. I use these methods and never hit any lower then 0.003 from the target OG. PM me if you want some more advice on your practices for getting better extractions.
 
1.080 Pre-boil looks like a pretty high expectation. Are you sure that's not post boil?

I entered 14.75lbs of US 2 row into Beer Smith and it shows 1.054 est pre-boil. Which is right where you are.
21.75 lbs of US 2 row gets it to 1.080. It even takes 20 lbs of German Wheat to get to 1.080. For a 5 gallon batch @ 72% efficiency

Don't go higher temperature on sparge.

What grains did you use?

Add grains to water. This allows the water to heat the mash tun and stabilize temperature and you can control dough balls.

Buy Beer Smith 21 day free trial
 
I only batch sparge but from what I have read it is necessary to drain the sparge very slowly when fly sparging. An hour is typically stated.

The crush of the grain is also very important.

I was a little low on my previous batch so on the last I tightened my Corona style mill just a tiny bit and hit my numbers right on with the last batch!
 
Mash temp looks high. Remember M=More A=Alcohol L=Lower T= Temperature

Very very true, just dont go too low on the temps or youll sacrifice some of the body and mouthfeel of the beer which wont be balanced with the increased alcohol. If you venture to lower temps for medium to heavy bodied beers then look into adding malto-dextrins, carapils, or other dextrinous/proteinous (if thats a word) adjuncts. Welcome to the cause and effect world of brewing where true logic doesnt count and messing with recipes is a fun but rocky road. :confused:
 
Get your crush right, if it's not. That is the most important factor here.
 
If you want to increase eff try batch sparging..save some time also. Hell with sparging for 1 hour. Also next time your in lhbs see what mill is set at. You might want to double crush.

Don't worry about clear runnings that much. If you have finings and s good chill and time your beer well be clear as hell.

I don't even volourf , sp, any more. Just open her up. I am more intrested in having a quick hot beak and a quick cold break.
 
very very true, just dont go too low on the temps or youll sacrifice some of the body and mouthfeel of the beer which wont be balanced with the increased alcohol. If you venture to lower temps for medium to heavy bodied beers then look into adding malto-dextrins, carapils, or other dextrinous/proteinous (if thats a word) adjuncts. Welcome to the cause and effect world of brewing where true logic doesnt count and messing with recipes is a fun but rocky road. :confused:

+1
 
Guys, look at his information. I don't think he can get 1.080 from 14.75lbs of grain. I think everything is okay, I think he read something wrong.
 
Guys, look at his information. I don't think he can get 1.080 from 14.75lbs of grain. I think everything is okay, I think he read something wrong.

I was going to point that out as well, however if he's going to fly sparge he should get the process down. A 20 min fly sparge is way too fast, it should be taking him at least an hour to gently rinse the sugars from the grain.

Or do what I do, be lazy and batch sparge, and counter the lower efficiency with an extra pound of base grain. :drunk:
 
If you want to increase eff try batch sparging..save some time also. Hell with sparging for 1 hour. Also next time your in lhbs see what mill is set at. You might want to double crush.

Don't worry about clear runnings that much. If you have finings and s good chill and time your beer well be clear as hell.

I don't even volourf , sp, any more. Just open her up. I am more intrested in having a quick hot beak and a quick cold break.

Wouldnt double crushing make too much of a fine powder leading to stuck sparges no matter whether you batch sparged or did a continuous sparge. Also, I would never slack on the mash or sparge let alone any step of the brewing process. It will disappoint you in the end and your laziness will show in the final product.
 
jetmac said:
Guys, look at his information. I don't think he can get 1.080 from 14.75lbs of grain. I think everything is okay, I think he read something wrong.

This. He first should get his numbers rigth. 1.080 pre boil its too much. Then we can discuss techniques.
 
ATXbrew said:
Wouldnt double crushing make too much of a fine powder leading to stuck sparges no matter whether you batch sparged or did a continuous sparge. Also, I would never slack on the mash or sparge let alone any step of the brewing process. It will disappoint you in the end and your laziness will show in the final product.

Dont know. I have my system dialed in but allot of guys at lhbs double crush.
I set at .033 on dial. Have no clue what that means but it works and I know my system.

His numbers are off though. 1080 for what he has is off ...way off
 
I set at .033 on dial. Have no clue what that means but it works and I know my system.

That is the width of the gap between your rollers in inches.

0.033"

1 inch would be 1.000" , 1/2" would be .500", quarter inch is 0.250", 1/8th inch is 0.125", 16th" is .062", 32nd" is 0.031.

So your gap is a little bigger than a 32nd of an inch
 
Funny how occasionally brewers ask for advice then never read the reply's. Or acknowledge that the advice was/wasn't helpful.
 
Actually, I have gained a lot of useful information from this post and the replies. I haven't had a chance to brew another batch yet but I have a lot of great information to improve my process. I'll post again when I have done another batch. BTW, I got my pre-boil numbers from the brew pal app on my iPhone. If it is off I'll have to check the recipe against a different program. Think I'll give beer smith a try.
 
So I checked the pre-boil gravity against two different software programs and both came out the same at 1.077. Then I took off the 3 lbs of candi sugar and the pre-boil gravity dropped to 1.056. WTH, shouldn't the pre-boil gravity be measured without the candi sugar since that is added during the boil? Am I reading it wrong or are the programs incorrectly calculating the pre-boil gravity? Are the programs suggesting that the candi sugar should be dissolved before the boil? I don't even know if that would be possible.
 
Also, if I read correctly your measured your preboil at 140*F? You should cool it down, I haven't had those temperature calculators be very accurate at all, much less above 90*
 
My OG ended up at about 1.082 so not too bad. I plan to get a refractometer to make it easier. Until then I'll cool it down more before taking the gravity readings.
 
So I checked the pre-boil gravity against two different software programs and both came out the same at 1.077. Then I took off the 3 lbs of candi sugar and the pre-boil gravity dropped to 1.056. WTH, shouldn't the pre-boil gravity be measured without the candi sugar since that is added during the boil? Am I reading it wrong or are the programs incorrectly calculating the pre-boil gravity? Are the programs suggesting that the candi sugar should be dissolved before the boil? I don't even know if that would be possible.

Okay, in your first post you said you had a pre-boil gravity of 1.055 corrected.
Was the candied sugar already dissolved and mixed in with the wort?
If not, you can't expect a 1.080.

Typically sugar is added near the end of the boil which would only figure into the post boil gravity not the pre-boil gravity. (it's typically added at the end of the boil to avoid a seperate sterilization if added to the fermenter and to help mix it with the wort since the boil is causing lots of disturbance)
 
I'm thinking that my 1.055 estimation may be off since I took the 1.040 reading while the wort was quite hot at 140F. Should have cooled it down for a more accurate reading. Still, maybe I'm not off as much as I thought. I still left sugar that I could have gotten out of the grain if I had slowed things down. The programs I used were setup at 70% efficiency so those were the numbers I was shooting for. I'm going to brew this same batch again soon so I can compare the results with a better process and more accurate measurements. I will also need to adjust the efficiency calculation in the program once I get my numbers from the mash. I didn't realize the pre-boil gravity was taking the candi sugar into account. That throws off the pre-boil estimation so it is an error in the software in my opinion. Either that or I'm not using it correctly which is entirely possible too. I add the candi sugar during the boil so it has no place in the calculation for pre-boil gravity.
 
One more thing,

When it's finished, if it's a good beer and you like it.......The numbers don't matter.
 
Belgian:
12.5 lbs Pilsen
1 lb caramunich
0.5 lbs biscuit
0.33 lbs aromatic
0.25 lbs special B
0.19 lbs chocolate
3 lbs candi sugar amber

Hops:
1 oz northern brewer 90 min
1 oz styrian golding 15 min
1 oz hallertauer 15 min

Yeast:
WLP530 two vials with starter

Mash 4.5 gallons 75 minutes at 155F (170F initial infusion temp, 80F grain temp). Stirred approximately every 15 minutes. Final temp at 75 minutes was approximately 152F. Sparged 4.5 gallons at 170F for maybe 20 minutes (I know it should have been longer like an hour). Final volume pre boil was 6.5 gallons. Boiled 90 minutes and final volume after boil was 5.5 gallons. 5 gallons into 6.5 gal glass carboy fermenter (I need a hop strainer!). OG 1.082 at 80F. Pitched yeast at 68F. I had active fermentation after only 5 hours and good Kraussen. Taking final readings and bottling tonight so I'll post the results.
 
Bottling done with final gravity at 1.014! ABV about 8.9%. Not too shabby. With a few tweaks on the next batch I should be able to hit close to the estimated efficiency numbers. Thanks to everyone for the great input.
 
Okay, Plugging your numbers into BeerSmith I get 1.066 pre-boil. Link to recipe I through together So you were pretty close but something was off and I agree you may need to change something like a longer sparge. But most importantly, a 90 min boil is going to require more wort than a 60 min boil. In this case BS suggests almost 8.5 gallons in your boil kettle. I typically boil off 1.5-2 gallons in a 60 min boil. You only boiled off 1 gallon in 90 min which should have been closer to 3 gallons. So, your boil could not have been very vigorous. Also, BS puts this at 1.099 into the fermenter. Which you were way off of. If you had 8.5 gallons pre-boil, at a gravity of 1.055 it would have helped you to get to the 1.099 having the extra 2 gallons to boil off. Even @1.055, you could have boiled down to 5 gallons and made it into the 1.090's.

Also, I think you have a few numbers wrong or your hydrometer is off but 6.5 gallons @ 1.055 equals 357.5 gravity units. If you boil off 1 gallon and divide that into the 5 gallons left it's only a gravity of 1.071 not 1.082 post boil as you have stated. so something is not right.

Does this make sense?
 
Bottling done with final gravity at 1.014! ABV about 8.9%. Not too shabby. With a few tweaks on the next batch I should be able to hit close to the estimated efficiency numbers. Thanks to everyone for the great input.

Hmmm....12 days from brewing to bottling. That's not very much time.
 
I only have a 7 gallon brew pot so 6.5 gallons is about as much as I can boil right now. The boil may not have been very vigorous but is that important for anything other than boil off. It was a constant boil but I think if I were to get much more heat it would boil over. It will be awhile before I can get a larger brew pot so maybe I'll stick with smaller brews for now.
On the gravity, did you have the candi sugar added in your calculations? I always double check my hydrometer readings so I'm sure they are correct.
 
jetmac said:
Hmmm....12 days from brewing to bottling. That's not very much time.

I didn't transfer to secondary. Trying to get this one ready for an event at the end of the month.
 
jetmac said:
Okay, Plugging your numbers into BeerSmith I get 1.066 pre-boil. Link to recipe I through together So you were pretty close but something was off and I agree you may need to change something like a longer sparge. But most importantly, a 90 min boil is going to require more wort than a 60 min boil. In this case BS suggests almost 8.5 gallons in your boil kettle. I typically boil off 1.5-2 gallons in a 60 min boil. You only boiled off 1 gallon in 90 min which should have been closer to 3 gallons. So, your boil could not have been very vigorous. Also, BS puts this at 1.099 into the fermenter. Which you were way off of. If you had 8.5 gallons pre-boil, at a gravity of 1.055 it would have helped you to get to the 1.099 having the extra 2 gallons to boil off. Even @1.055, you could have boiled down to 5 gallons and made it into the 1.090's.

Also, I think you have a few numbers wrong or your hydrometer is off but 6.5 gallons @ 1.055 equals 357.5 gravity units. If you boil off 1 gallon and divide that into the 5 gallons left it's only a gravity of 1.071 not 1.082 post boil as you have stated. so something is not right.

Does this make sense?

I'm going to have to start using Beer Smith. Looking at their numbers it is more like what I was expecting to see and my results are way off in comparison. The color was off at more of an amber than a darker Belgian. It still tastes pretty good but is not what I expected. guess I'll have to wait awhile before I can brew this one again.
 
I only have a 7 gallon brew pot so 6.5 gallons is about as much as I can boil right now. The boil may not have been very vigorous but is that important for anything other than boil off. It was a constant boil but I think if I were to get much more heat it would boil over. It will be awhile before I can get a larger brew pot so maybe I'll stick with smaller brews for now. .

Actually, boiling is very important not just to evaporate the water. One of the reasons you boil this particular recipe for 90min is to get rid of DMS.

There is a pod cast about boiling wort at The Brewing Network somewhere.

Ya, I think 90 min boils are out of the question unless you do a 2.5 gallon batch


On the gravity, did you have the candi sugar added in your calculations? I always double check my hydrometer readings so I'm sure they are correct.

Yes, the sugar was in the recipe creation. So, I'm thinking BeerSmith takes it out of the equation pre-boil because as you can see, OG was up in the 1.090's. That's after boil.
 
I didn't transfer to secondary. Trying to get this one ready for an event at the end of the month.

Good, there is some debate, but a secondary isn't necessary other than for specific reasons like adding fruit.

Typically I let my beer stay in the primary for 1 month
 
Not to beat a dead horse...but who batch sparges for an hour? I've heard people fly sparging slowly and using an hour to drain the mash tun.

If you're going to batch sparge, you don't need to take an hour doing so. Add the sparge water, let it sit for 10 minutes, and then drain. An hour to batch sparge is completely unnecessary in my opinion. I've never had an issue with efficiency or flavors, and my beers have scored well in competition.
 
Not to beat a dead horse...but who batch sparges for an hour? I've heard people fly sparging slowly and using an hour to drain the mash tun.

If you're going to batch sparge, you don't need to take an hour doing so. Add the sparge water, let it sit for 10 minutes, and then drain. An hour to batch sparge is completely unnecessary in my opinion. I've never had an issue with efficiency or flavors, and my beers have scored well in competition.

He must have misspoke surely he meant fly sparge
 
Not to beat a dead horse...but who batch sparges for an hour? I've heard people fly sparging slowly and using an hour to drain the mash tun.

If you're going to batch sparge, you don't need to take an hour doing so. Add the sparge water, let it sit for 10 minutes, and then drain. An hour to batch sparge is completely unnecessary in my opinion. I've never had an issue with efficiency or flavors, and my beers have scored well in competition.

Actually, there is nothing to be gained by letting the sparge water sit for 10 min. I had that in my original batch sparging swritep, but changed it years ago. These days I simply stir in the sparge water, vorlauf and runoff. See dennybrew.com

And yes, an hour to batch sarge is not necessary. It takes me 15 min. total to vorlauf the mash, run it off, stir in the sparge water, vorlauf that, and run off the sparge. I average 85% efficiency.
 
Darwin18 said:
Not to beat a dead horse...but who batch sparges for an hour? I've heard people fly sparging slowly and using an hour to drain the mash tun.

If you're going to batch sparge, you don't need to take an hour doing so. Add the sparge water, let it sit for 10 minutes, and then drain. An hour to batch sparge is completely unnecessary in my opinion. I've never had an issue with efficiency or flavors, and my beers have scored well in competition.

I did fly sparge. Did I say batch sparge? I agree no need to sparge for an hour with batch sparge.
 

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