RIMS Build: Some Questions

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

reuliss

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2012
Messages
461
Reaction score
40
First off, I want to thank everyone for their help so far. I take none of you for granted and this community continues to amaze me about how helpful everyone is to people like me who are still searching for a clue. I know it takes time to read and respond to posts like this, and I promise to pay it forward (mostly with brewing advice which I'm good with--I don't see myself dispensing electric advice any time soon! :D)

Now, with that introduction, there are some lingering questions about the RIMS controller I'm currently working on. The major concepts and such I have down, but as I continue to drill down deeper into finer detail, I find myself coming up with some additional questions. First off, this is the build that I'm planning on

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/help-rims-controller-412746/

Here are my questions:

1. The notes say that the element must be a low density 2000W. I want to use a 1500W low density element instead. I can't tell if the wording of the notation on the wiring diagram is saying the element needs to be low density or that it needs to be 2000W. A bit ambiguous. So, am I okay with the lower wattage element? I'm no expert, but intuition tells me that I should be okay going with a lower wattage element than called for in the design rather than vice versa.

2. I'm confused how the wiring diagram is telling me to wire the E-Stop button. The terminals on the switch don't seem to match the diagram, and the diagram does not label the terminals the way the actual switch does. At the very bottom of this post is a picture of the back of the E-Stop switch.
Can someone provide some additional guidance about which wires go where on this switch?

3. I purchased all 14 gauge wire. Are there any places on the diagram (again, assuming I'm using a 1500W element) where I should go with something like 12 or 10?

4. My enclosure doesn't have a grounding post. Is that a problem? I'd think that it should and perhaps it would suffice is a drilled a hole and added a bolt to which I can add some ground wires. And, on a related front, the wiring diagram itself doesn't seem to indicate precisely how to ground the enclosure. Is that typical?

Thanks again in advance for everyone's insight.

20130607_212458-1.jpg
 
Here are my questions:

1. The notes say that the element must be a low density 2000W. I want to use a 1500W low density element instead. I can't tell if the wording of the notation on the wiring diagram is saying the element needs to be low density or that it needs to be 2000W. A bit ambiguous. So, am I okay with the lower wattage element? I'm no expert, but intuition tells me that I should be okay going with a lower wattage element than called for in the design rather than vice versa.

The text says to use an LWD (low watt density) 2000w-120v and should be made of Incoloy. Available from Boston Heating Supply at http://bostonheatingsupply.com/SP10868GL.aspx

Note to P-J: You need to update the URL for the element in your schematics.

You can use a lower watt density element, but the amount of heat you'll be putting into your system is less than it was designed for. It will hold temps for 5 and 10 gallon batches, but don't expect to be able to do step mashes.

Search in this forum for a spreadsheet fill called "electricheat". It does calculations on how long it takes a specified volume of water from one temp to another temp. You can use that to see the effect of your decision before you buy.

Why would you want to go lower? I don't recall seeing how big a batch you're planning on making, etc?

2. I'm confused how the wiring diagram is telling me to wire the E-Stop button. The terminals on the switch don't seem to match the diagram, and the diagram does not label the terminals the way the actual switch does. At the very bottom of this post is a picture of the back of the E-Stop switch.
Can someone provide some additional guidance about which wires go where on this switch?
The e-stop switch is designed to trip your GFCI breaker by leaking a very small amount of current (I think 0.06 amps). This leakage will cause the GFCI breaker to trip an thus cut power to the panel, elements, pumps, etc.

The switch you chose to perform this function must have a normally open contact set - review the diagram and you'll see the switch drawing is open. The switch in your photo has both a normally open ("NO") and normally closed ("NC") contact set. Wire it up using the NO contact set.

From the hot terminal, run a wire through a fuse block (or inline fuse holder) rated for 1 amp (choose a 1 amp fast blow fuse) then to another piece of wire, then solder in the two resisters in series with each other to another piece of wire to one side of your EPO switch. Then take another piece of wire from the other side of the EPO switch and run it to ground.


3. I purchased all 14 gauge wire. Are there any places on the diagram (again, assuming I'm using a 1500W element) where I should go with something like 12 or 10?

Have you read the "Electrical Primer for Brewers"? You should be well aware of the ratings for various sized wiring and how to determine the load (amps) you're going to be using. Wire is cheap. You can use wire larger than required, but do not use wiring that is too small for the load.

You mentioned you were going to use a 1500w element on a 120v circuit. watts/volts=amps 1500w/120v = 12.5 amps if your 120v is really 110v then the amperage is 13.6. If you used a 2000v element at 120v (well, you can do the math now).

14ga wire is good for 15 amps, however, you're at 83% of the wire rating for the 1500w/120v (12.5amps/15amps=.83 or 83%). It might get a little bit warm. I would use 12ga wire for any wiring runs carrying the load of the elements. Wire is cheap. Buying the next size up is easier then melting something.

4. My enclosure doesn't have a grounding post. Is that a problem? I'd think that it should and perhaps it would suffice is a drilled a hole and added a bolt to which I can add some ground wires. And, on a related front, the wiring diagram itself doesn't seem to indicate precisely how to ground the enclosure. Is that typical?

What is your enclosure made of? If it's plastic or fiberglass you need a grounding terminal strip for the components, but not for the enclosure. If your enclosure is metal then yes, you can put a screw and nut or bolt a piece of wire from your ground terminal strip to your enclosure.

Good luck with your build. Load pictures of it when you can and keep asking questions.

Paul
 
stlbeer said:
The text says to use an LWD (low watt density) 2000w-120v and should be made of Incoloy. Available from Boston Heating Supply at http://bostonheatingsupply.com/SP10868GL.aspx

Note to P-J: You need to update the URL for the element in your schematics.

You can use a lower watt density element, but the amount of heat you'll be putting into your system is less than it was designed for. It will hold temps for 5 and 10 gallon batches, but don't expect to be able to do step mashes.

Search in this forum for a spreadsheet fill called "electricheat". It does calculations on how long it takes a specified volume of water from one temp to another temp. You can use that to see the effect of your decision before you buy.

Why would you want to go lower? I don't recall seeing how big a batch you're planning on making, etc?

The e-stop switch is designed to trip your GFCI breaker by leaking a very small amount of current (I think 0.06 amps). This leakage will cause the GFCI breaker to trip an thus cut power to the panel, elements, pumps, etc.

The switch you chose to perform this function must have a normally open contact set - review the diagram and you'll see the switch drawing is open. The switch in your photo has both a normally open ("NO") and normally closed ("NC") contact set. Wire it up using the NO contact set.

From the hot terminal, run a wire through a fuse block (or inline fuse holder) rated for 1 amp (choose a 1 amp fast blow fuse) then to another piece of wire, then solder in the two resisters in series with each other to another piece of wire to one side of your EPO switch. Then take another piece of wire from the other side of the EPO switch and run it to ground.

Have you read the "Electrical Primer for Brewers"? You should be well aware of the ratings for various sized wiring and how to determine the load (amps) you're going to be using. Wire is cheap. You can use wire larger than required, but do not use wiring that is too small for the load.

You mentioned you were going to use a 1500w element on a 120v circuit. watts/volts=amps 1500w/120v = 12.5 amps if your 120v is really 110v then the amperage is 13.6. If you used a 2000v element at 120v (well, you can do the math now).

14ga wire is good for 15 amps, however, you're at 83% of the wire rating for the 1500w/120v (12.5amps/15amps=.83 or 83%). It might get a little bit warm. I would use 12ga wire for any wiring runs carrying the load of the elements. Wire is cheap. Buying the next size up is easier then melting something.

What is your enclosure made of? If it's plastic or fiberglass you need a grounding terminal strip for the components, but not for the enclosure. If your enclosure is metal then yes, you can put a screw and nut or bolt a piece of wire from your ground terminal strip to your enclosure.

Good luck with your build. Load pictures of it when you can and keep asking questions.

Paul

Thank you for those thorough responses. As far as my decision to use the 1500w element, I'm planning to use it to hold temps only. Any step mashes I'll do with second infusions. I know this is debatable, but I'm my mind I don't like the idea of a RIMS tube for step mashes for two reasons: first, I think it would take too long to reach the target and would affect the wort's fermentability; second, and more importantly, I'm not convinced that step mashing with a heating element wouldn't denature the enzymes. The lower element allows me to have comfort that the system won't overheat my wort. I want to be as gentle about it as possible.
 
That's fine. I was asking so we'd have all of the information on your system.
 
stlbeer said:
That's fine. I was asking so we'd have all of the information on your system.

Thank you stlbeer. Your help is much appreciated. Also, I realized that I never answered your question regarding batch size-- I'm sticking with 5 gal.
 
Okay, started wiring tonight. I put a heat sink below the SSR. This made me wonder how hot that heat sink will get. Any chance it could melt neighboring wires? It seems almost impossible to keep any wires from touch the heat sink.
 
Typically the heat sink is mounted outside of the enclosure, where fresh, cool air can move across the fins and remove the heat. If you chose to mount it inside the box (perfectly acceptable) you should provide some form of air movement through the box (IE a fan and a vent) to get the hot air out of the box. Doubtful that it will get hot enough to melt wires, but I've never actually performed any stress-tests on an SSR to see how hot they get. Suffice it to say they get hot enough that without air movement and a well-seated heat sink, you can expect a short life for the SSR.
 
Typically the heat sink is mounted outside of the enclosure, where fresh, cool air can move across the fins and remove the heat. If you chose to mount it inside the box (perfectly acceptable) you should provide some form of air movement through the box (IE a fan and a vent) to get the hot air out of the box. Doubtful that it will get hot enough to melt wires, but I've never actually performed any stress-tests on an SSR to see how hot they get. Suffice it to say they get hot enough that without air movement and a well-seated heat sink, you can expect a short life for the SSR.

How hard would it be to incorporate a fan into my wiring diagram.
 
If you find a small, 120v fan - very easy. If you can only use a 12v computer fan, then you'd need to install a transformer of some sort (a wall wart works well) and then install the fan. All in all, it'd be simple enough. Just more holes to cut in the box.
 
So far, no good. Thought I was all ready to go and plugged her in and . . . Nothing. Anyone see anything obvious that I've messed up?

image-229850957.jpg



image-116502093.jpg
 
ok ,so my guess would be your terminal strips need to be jumped across the hot terminal side. these terminals are separate, you need to feed each one power.
by that I mean each term. needs its own power source.
here's what i'm talkin' about. the jumper wires on each terminal.

DSCN2738.jpg


DSCN2737.jpg
 
riverbeer said:
ok ,so my guess would be your terminal strips need to be jumped across the hot terminal side. these terminals are separate, you need to feed each one power.
by that I mean each term. needs its own power source.
here's what i'm talkin' about. the jumper wires on each terminal.

Yes. Nice catch.
 
riverbeer said:
ok ,so my guess would be your terminal strips need to be jumped across the hot terminal side. these terminals are separate, you need to feed each one power.
by that I mean each term. needs its own power source.
here's what i'm talkin' about. the jumper wires on each terminal.

Ok, so if I include a jumper from each terminal in the bus bar, I might be good?
 
Okay, started wiring tonight. I put a heat sink below the SSR. This made me wonder how hot that heat sink will get. Any chance it could melt neighboring wires? It seems almost impossible to keep any wires from touch the heat sink.

Really only skipped through the posts, but you did use thermal paste between the heatsink and the SSR right?

Just making sure... ;-)
 
atreid said:
Really only skipped through the posts, but you did use thermal paste between the heatsink and the SSR right?

Just making sure... ;-)

Nope, I didn't. Thought that would only help heat transfer. Might that actually be the source of my problem?
 
This pic might help explain the jumpers:
At the bottom right of the pic, you can see my neutral (white) feeding the terminal strip where I have the label "1a". Without jumpers, the only other wire that "1a" is connected to is "1b". By using a short length of wire to conenct "1a" to "2a", I have now have a connection to "2b". You need as many jumpers on the right side as you have wires on the left.

THe lack of thermal paste would not prevent the panel from powering up, but it will make your SSR run hotter and probably shorten it's lifetime.

jumpers.jpg
 
THe lack of thermal paste would not prevent the panel from powering up, but it will make your SSR run hotter and probably shorten it's lifetime.

Exactly... Definitely unrelated to your problem but you might eventually fry your SSRs without thermal paste... Any brand of paste will do. You can find some at any computer store. They use it for CPUs....
 
Noidios said:
This pic might help explain the jumpers:
At the bottom right of the pic, you can see my neutral (white) feeding the terminal strip where I have the label "1a". Without jumpers, the only other wire that "1a" is connected to is "1b". By using a short length of wire to conenct "1a" to "2a", I have now have a connection to "2b". You need as many jumpers on the right side as you have wires on the left.

THe lack of thermal paste would not prevent the panel from powering up, but it will make your SSR run hotter and probably shorten it's lifetime.

That worked, everyone. Thanks!
 
Okay, so, as I indicated above, the common suggestion fixed my problem of no power. All switches light up, indicator lights, etc. E-Stop switch works like a charm. I confirmed that the pump receptacle gets power when I hit the pump switch. In short, passes with flying colors for all tests with one very important exception.

When I hit the heat switch, the switch illuminates, as does the indicator light. But, there is no power to the receptacle. I checked everything I could think of, including replacing the receptacle. So, I can come to only two alternative conclusions. One, that there is a wiring error. Two, and more likely, I have somehow overlooked how to use the PID to send power to the element's receptacle. After all, the PID is supposed to turn that sucker on and off, and so far there seems to be no power there.

Let's start with a very low level question. I'm assuming that I need to actually hit the heat switch in order for the element to fire. But, I'm also assuming, that hitting the switch is not enough, and that the PID itself must play a part. So that, even while the PID is turning the element on and off, the heat switch on my panel will always be "on." Is that right? What about the indicator light? I figured that should only illuminate when the PID sends power to the element. Yet, when I hit the heat button, that indicator light illuminates.

Okay, I'm starting to ramble. Sorry. Just a little dizzy from unwiring and rewiring trying to isolate the issue.

Any thoughts?
 
Play around with a your RTD and a glass of ice water and a cig lighter. See if the temperature changes turn your receptacle on and off. I don't know enough about the PID to know what your settings are supposed to be.

P.S. It's my understanding that there is some current leakage in this panel and the indicator light may light up slightly even when the circuit isn't fully powered.
 
reuliss said:
Okay, so, as I indicated above, the common suggestion fixed my problem of no power. All switches light up, indicator lights, etc. E-Stop switch works like a charm. I confirmed that the pump receptacle gets power when I hit the pump switch. In short, passes with flying colors for all tests with one very important exception.

When I hit the heat switch, the switch illuminates, as does the indicator light. But, there is no power to the receptacle. I checked everything I could think of, including replacing the receptacle. So, I can come to only two alternative conclusions. One, that there is a wiring error. Two, and more likely, I have somehow overlooked how to use the PID to send power to the element's receptacle. After all, the PID is supposed to turn that sucker on and off, and so far there seems to be no power there.

Let's start with a very low level question. I'm assuming that I need to actually hit the heat switch in order for the element to fire. But, I'm also assuming, that hitting the switch is not enough, and that the PID itself must play a part. So that, even while the PID is turning the element on and off, the heat switch on my panel will always be "on." Is that right? What about the indicator light? I figured that should only illuminate when the PID sends power to the element. Yet, when I hit the heat button, that indicator light illuminates.

Okay, I'm starting to ramble. Sorry. Just a little dizzy from unwiring and rewiring trying to isolate the issue.

Any thoughts?

Ok, so here's something weird. I had everything fired up and turned on all switches. I plugged in a hand mixer into the element receptacle. Whenever I pressed the switch on the mixer, the indicator light turned off but the mixer didnt turn on. When I relates the button on the mixer, the indicator light turned back on. Might this give a hint about a problem?
 
Ok, so here's something weird. I had everything fired up and turned on all switches. I plugged in a hand mixer into the element receptacle. Whenever I pressed the switch on the mixer, the indicator light turned off but the mixer didnt turn on. When I relates the button on the mixer, the indicator light turned back on. Might this give a hint about a problem?

Actually, weird but common. SSRs leak some voltage. If you don't have a load on the output providing some resistance, the leakage can be enough to fire the indicator light. That's not really a problem.

Leave the hand mixer plugged in and turned on, and set your PID so that it should be sending a signal (either with manual mode or with your setpoint). If the mixer starts spinning, then it's working. Then set the PID so it should not be sending a signal, and see if the mixer stops.
 
I'd recommend using a light bulb or something other than a mixer - while it should be OK, the PID may cycle on and off very quickly, which could cause some difficulties in more complicated electronics. A light will handle the pulses much better than an expensive mixer or a motor, though they'd probably be fine... but why risk it?

jeffmeh is spot on with the LED diagnosis (I had the same issue when I first started testing) and it's likely that you just haven't set the PID correctly to have it actually turn the receptacle on / off.

-Kevin
 
I agree that a light bulb would be a better testing device than a mixer. :)
 
So....

After two "wet runs" that went perfectly smoothly, I proceeded today with my first real brew using this controller. Turned on the board, the PID fired up smoothly. Fired the pump to transfer water from HLT to Mash Tun, no problemo. Got ready to recirculate. Fired the pump again, and again no problem. Hit my "element" button, and . . . nada. Suddenly not working. I tried to trouble shoot the problem. I plugged another device into the receptacle for the element, and there was just no electricity.

Then, I went to fire the pump again to drain the lines so that I could mash the "old fashion" way, and suddenly that stopped working too. PID was still on, but that's it.

So, how do I go about troubleshooting this issue? Any help much appreciated. To say that I feel "frustrated" after all these months of building the stand and the controller only to have it poop out on the first brew is a serious understatement.
 
reuliss said:
So....

After two "wet runs" that went perfectly smoothly, I proceeded today with my first real brew using this controller. Turned on the board, the PID fired up smoothly. Fired the pump to transfer water from HLT to Mash Tun, no problemo. Got ready to recirculate. Fired the pump again, and again no problem. Hit my "element" button, and . . . nada. Suddenly not working. I tried to trouble shoot the problem. I plugged another device into the receptacle for the element, and there was just no electricity.

Then, I went to fire the pump again to drain the lines so that I could mash the "old fashion" way, and suddenly that stopped working too. PID was still on, but that's it.

So, how do I go about troubleshooting this issue? Any help much appreciated. To say that I feel "frustrated" after all these months of building the stand and the controller only to have it poop out on the first brew is a serious understatement.

I also checked to see if I perhaps blew a fuse or two. From what I can tell, I didn't. Any insight greatly appreciated.
 
Did you trip any of your breakers? Inside the panel, at the GFCI, or at the main panel? Blow any fuses that you put in? Check the inside of your panel for any soot or burnt area. Smell around from the distinct smell of burnt insulation or that acrid smell of ozone and arc-welded wiring. If you find something that looks out of place, post us a picture.

-Kevin
 
Did you trip any of your breakers? Inside the panel, at the GFCI, or at the main panel? Blow any fuses that you put in? Check the inside of your panel for any soot or burnt area. Smell around from the distinct smell of burnt insulation or that acrid smell of ozone and arc-welded wiring. If you find something that looks out of place, post us a picture.

-Kevin

All breakers are fine and there is no soot or burnt smell. I pulled the fuses, and they look the same as they did when I first installed them (I'm guessing there'd be some visual evidence of a "blown" fuse). I checked all connections, and they're tight. Again, the panel powers up and the PID works just fine. Just the switches and attached receptacles for the element and (later) the pump.
 
Start chasing power then... Start at the main feed, if you have power there, keep going down stream checking on each side of switches, connections, fuses, breakers, contatcors - whatever. You'll find some point where you have power on one side of a device, and nothing on the other side. Then you can figure out if it's a wiring issue or a bad device.

I should mention that you need a multi-meter for this.
 
Back
Top