Theoretically, say a brewery wants to brew my beer

CornyKegs 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
imaguitargod

imaguitargod

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2008
Messages
1,002
Reaction score
10
Location
Local Mind Expander of Cleveland, OH
Now, theoretically, say one of my brewmaster friends of one of the brewery’s I visit really likes one of my beers in particular. Likes it so much that he thinks it will win awards. Theoretically, lets say that he wants to have me and him brew up that recipe using the companies large scale equipment from start to finish.

He then wants to enter it into one of the major competitions in hopes of winning an award and would pay for everything (including an extra medal for me), and give me fair credit. Now, theoretically, let’s say that I agree. What would I have to do to both protect myself and my beer. Should I ask for money if it becomes one of the brew house’s beers? Do I need stuff in writing, is there a form for that?

Help, I’m theoretically thinking this would be a huge step for me and I’m slightly in awestruck. Sorry if this is the wrong spot for this theoretical question.
 
Home brewers brew with commercial brewers all the time. It is not typical, in fact it may have never happened, to get royalties or other monetary compensation.

I doubt they will give you money, under any circumstances. If you want to be able to drink the beer for free every Tuesday or have the brewery put your name in their newsletter, I would think a verbal agreement is appropriate.

If you are going to have hurt feelings based on what might happen, I would recommend not participating.
 
remilard said:
If you are going to have hurt feelings based on what might happen, I would recommend not participating.
Click to expand...

In all honesty, I would be glad with either my name on the beer or a mention that it was my beer or my recipe or something. I trust the theoretical guy and don't think feelings will be hurt. If I did, I would theoretically do it. ;)
 
I'm not sure you have any way to protect the recipe (by a patent for example) other than keeping it a secret. Patents require that the item in question (in your case your recipe) be "nonobvious" meaning that the recipe, when followed, leads to an unexpected result.

So when someone follows your recipe they get beer = non-patentable
If someone followed your recipe and got a drug that cured cancer = patentable.

That is why many brewers keep their recipes/processes secret.

You could probably get the brewer to sign a confidentiality agreement to keep the recipe between the two of you. However, there probably isn't anything you can do if the brewer, once he knows your recipe, decides he want to make the beer as part of the brewery's lineup. In addition to not having patent protection, it would be hard to prove that the beer they ultimately end up making at the brewery was really from your recipe in the first place.

That doesn't mean your recipe isn't worth anything, but what exactly it IS worth is the question. If you are serious about getting something out of this deal, you should probably hire some sort of lawyer to negotiate a deal.

Me, I'd probably just be excited to see one of my recipes be brewed at that level and be stoked to actually see it on tap at the bar!

What do you want to get out of this deal exactly???

Disclaimer: I'm no lawyer and don't pretend to be....
 
If it were up to me I'd just ask for some recognition on the bottle if it gets to production and hope that it really does do well. Fair credit would seem to cover that, but you might want to ask about it beforehand.
 
None of the local breweries that do collaborative brewing pay for the recipes, although Widmer gives people a nice jacket and when the beer is on tap, the homebrewer gets credit. It is unlikely that the final recipe for volume brewing will be exactly the same as yours anyway and that makes it the brewery's recipe.
 
If he's a real friend I'd be comfortable with a verbal agreement that you'll get mention or your name on all swag associating with the beer (bottles, tap handles, tshirt ect). Then just write the recipe in % when you take it with you for brew day and bring it home with you afterwards if you want to keep the recipe yours. But at that point I'd take the recognition agreement and give them the recipe.
 
Please also keep in mind that any deal you make with the brewer might be void if the owners have a deal to own any recipes produced. The brewer
may not legally be allowed to promise you anything.

Photographers have this issue a lot at newspapers. You shoot a photo while using the company gear and on thr company time: who owns the photo...? Often it requires an agreed upon contract beforehand.
 
Good point Donner.

Let us knwo when it theoretically gets brewed. I have some friends in cleveland. They may be nice enough to grab me some bottles to ship down.
 
imaguitargod said:
I have no clue what I should expect to get if anything, hence this thread. Seems like everyone says to be stoked that this theoredically could happen and should try to get recognition.

I'd be happy with that. :mug:
Click to expand...

Do this theoretical brewpub have a mug club or anything along those lines? I know most do. You might be able to get a few years free or something.

Donner said:
Photographers have this issue a lot at newspapers. You shoot a photo while using the company gear and on thr company time: who owns the photo...? Often it requires an agreed upon contract beforehand.
Click to expand...

Actually, unless explitially noted otherwise in writing, whoever clicks that shutter owns the rights to the pictures.
 
dataz722 said:
Actually, unless explitially noted otherwise in writing, whoever clicks that shutter owns the rights to the pictures.
Click to expand...

Really? I've always known it to be the opposite. If you're being paid to take pictures for them, then they own the pictures you take. Intellectual property that is produced within the scope of a job is generally the property of the employer unless they've made legal arrangement in advance.

Don't think this applies to the OP's situation though.
 
ChshreCat said:
Really? I've always known it to be the opposite. If you're being paid to take pictures for them, then they own the pictures you take. Intellectual property that is produced within the scope of a job is generally the property of the employer unless they've made legal arrangement in advance.

Don't think this applies to the OP's situation though.
Click to expand...

Yeah, we are getting a little off topic but I know for a fact thats how it works with photography. Granted most people do probably have a contract and that is in it somewhere but by default it is yours. Hell say you get your camera set up, framed, exposure set but just turn your back for one second and somebody else presses the shutter release. That person now owns the rights to it.
 
As far as "protecting your property", I'm going to say that you don't own jack ****. Take the great opportunity to have a commercial brewery produce your recipe. Enter some comps, maybe have him sponsor you for a Pro/Am comp if you have won any awards with the beer in question.

Recipes are a dime a dozen. If its something unique, then yea maybe you have a point. The brewer doesn't owe you any money for the resulting sales from you recipe. Maybe he will pay you for the work you put in if you are lucky. Like I said before, take the opportunity to brew on a commercial scale. You said you were looking to get into the business. If you work hard and show your dedication, maybe this could translate into a job.
 
dataz722 said:
Yeah, we are getting a little off topic but I know for a fact thats how it works with photography. Granted most people do probably have a contract and that is in it somewhere but by default it is yours. Hell say you get your camera set up, framed, exposure set but just turn your back for one second and somebody else presses the shutter release. That person now owns the rights to it.
Click to expand...

I know this is a bit off topic, but my general point is that if the OP wants a deal in place he has to make sure it's with someone who is in a position to make the deal. The brewer might not be that person.

Second, pushing the button doesn't mean you own the frame. In general, it does, but there are court cases that have awarded the copyright to the company the person worked for, not the photographer, simply because the photo was shot on a company camera. The best case that jumps to mind right away is the image of the baby and the firefighter during the OKC bombing. Lester LaRue (who was one of two photographers to take a similar photo) shot his copy of the famous image on a camera owned by Oklahoma Natural Gas. After being fired for refusing to turn over the copyright and the money he earned from selling the photos the company took him to court and was awarded ownership of the copyright.

Again, know where you stand before you move forward. Just because the brewer says one thing, make sure he or she is in a position to make these sorts of promises.

This brings up another question i have had along the same lines. What do professional brewers do when they create a recipe for a brew-pub? If the brewer leaves do they take the recipe with them or does the brewery still have the right to produce the beer without them? I know on Can you Brew It, the brewer isn't always authorized to give away the recipe to the listeners. What happens if that brewer goes to work for another brewery? There has to be some sort of standard practice for all this.
 
Donner said:
The best case that jumps to mind right away is the image of the baby and the firefighter during the OKC bombing. Lester LaRue (who was one of two photographers to take a similar photo) shot his copy of the famous image on a camera owned by Oklahoma Natural Gas. After being fired for refusing to turn over the copyright and the money he earned from selling the photos the company took him to court and was awarded ownership of the copyright.
Click to expand...

I actually hadn't heard that but then again I guess anything is possible in court. I had spoken to a copyright attorney and that is just what they told me.

Donner said:
Again, know where you stand before you move forward. Just because the brewer says one thing, make sure he or she is in a position to make these sorts of promises.
Click to expand...

I wasn't trying to say that ANYTHING that I was saying about the photography had anything to do with your rights to the recipe. They were unrelated and just got off topic. I just wanted to make that clear :mug:
 
Edcculus said:
Whats with all the secrecy lately?
Click to expand...
Well, I don't want to come out and say, "Hey guys! Such and such at such and such brewery wants to do this", and then a week later he says, "Nevermind". That would just make me look like an a$$ me thinks. I'll come out with it when it happens ;)
Edcculus said:
As far as "protecting your property", I'm going to say that you don't own jack ****. Take the great opportunity to have a commercial brewery produce your recipe. Enter some comps, maybe have him sponsor you for a Pro/Am comp if you have won any awards with the beer in question.

Recipes are a dime a dozen. If its something unique, then yea maybe you have a point. The brewer doesn't owe you any money for the resulting sales from you recipe. Maybe he will pay you for the work you put in if you are lucky. Like I said before, take the opportunity to brew on a commercial scale. You said you were looking to get into the business. If you work hard and show your dedication, maybe this could translate into a job.
Click to expand...

Yep, I'm going to take the oppertunity as a major bit of leraning experience and slap it on the old resume. I've never had expeince in this area for someone wanting to use my recipe so I posed the question on how to go about it and what I should expect from the deal. Everyone did a great job in filing me on on what to expect. Thanks guys!
 
Good luck. Let us know how it goes. I think it will be a great learning experience for you. Especially since you have said you want to start brewing. If it happens before April (I'll be moving), I'd love to try it.

Also, I had a great conversation with one of the brewers from Hoppin Frog SNOBS Christmas Party last night on how to go about getting a job at a brewery. I can share any insight if you would like.
 
Edcculus said:
Good luck. Let us know how it goes. I think it will be a great learning experience for you. Especially since you have said you want to start brewing. If it happens before April (I'll be moving), I'd love to try it.
Click to expand...
Getting out of Cleveland, eh? Lucky bastard. :mug: I'll let you all know if it goes through!

Edcculus said:
Also, I had a great conversation with one of the brewers from Hoppin Frog SNOBS Christmas Party last night on how to go about getting a job at a brewery. I can share any insight if you would like.
Click to expand...
I've been actually doing some bottling for Fred down at Hoppin' Frog, good guy and I hope to work for him full time. Would love to hear some insite that they gave you!
 
Yea, I'm taking the BJCP class with Fred, and talked to him for a while last night. If you are working with him, I'm sure you know his story.

OT:
Just had some Bourbon Barrel aged BORIS last night. That stuff is killer!

EDIT: Oops, I'm bad with names, it was Dave, not Fred from Hoppin Frog.
 
imaguitargod said:
Now, theoretically, say one of my brewmaster friends of one of the brewery’s I visit really likes one of my beers in particular. Likes it so much that he thinks it will win awards. Theoretically, lets say that he wants to have me and him brew up that recipe using the companies large scale equipment from start to finish.

He then wants to enter it into one of the major competitions in hopes of winning an award and would pay for everything (including an extra medal for me), and give me fair credit. Now, theoretically, let’s say that I agree. What would I have to do to both protect myself and my beer. Should I ask for money if it becomes one of the brew house’s beers? Do I need stuff in writing, is there a form for that?

Help, I’m theoretically thinking this would be a huge step for me and I’m slightly in awestruck. Sorry if this is the wrong spot for this theoretical question.
Click to expand...

So did this lead to what you have listed in your sig?
 
Revvy said:
Last post on homebrewtalk by the creator of this thread; " 04-21-2011, 09:58 PM."


Doubt you're going to get a response to your inquiry.
Click to expand...

True, but his last activity was 04-20-2012 12:58 PM. He could be in lurker mode or subscribed to that thread.
 
If you're truly interested in some kind of compensation then the tip about having a lawyer draw up an agreement is your best bet. If they did actually brew it, sell it, and it became a moneymaker for them - maybe you can ask for a tiered percentage of sales/profits? Just brain stormin'.....

Other than that - recognition and free beer at the pub every Tuesday sounds good to me
 
tdigyt said:
If you're truly interested in some kind of compensation then the tip about having a lawyer draw up an agreement is your best bet. If they did actually brew it, sell it, and it became a moneymaker for them - maybe you can ask for a tiered percentage of sales/profits? Just brain stormin'.....

Other than that - recognition and free beer at the pub every Tuesday sounds good to me
Click to expand...

Good advice, now can you go back in time and give it to the guy.
 
Aw, I wanted to jump into the fray and it turns out to be a dead thread? Bah. There goes my weekend.

Since I already did the thinking... why not?

Who owns the copyright to a photo (song, etc) is complicated. Generally, if the work was made for hire then it belongs to the employer. Whether a particular job is for hire or not can be tricky, but it depends on the details of the agreement and how much freedom/control the creator of the work exercised. It's hard to grab a situation and generalize its conclusion, though.

WRT someone trying to protect a recipe, you *could* write a confidentiality agreement, including an agreement not to produce the beer commercially without permission, or specifying the terms under which they can do so, etc.

I can't imagine the brewery signing on to that, though, because it's no longer a friendly agreement, and they don't have much to gain, and a lot to lose.
 
A few years too late to this thread I realize but here's my experience regardless. Just as a data point for others who may be feeling along the same lines as the OP. I've already been asked about this once before by someone in my local club so I thought it would be OK to post up on this, even if I am late to the game.

I am a homebrewer who has been through exactly what the OP is asking about here. I have a successful homebrew recipe that has won many medals, both locally and regionally. It was a big beer for me last year and was even a possible GABF Pro-Am entry that I had to turn down in favor of a different Pro-Am opportunity that I preferred to pursue last year. In retrospect, I'm glad I went with the path I did, even though we did not medal at GABF, as the beer we brewed for Pro-Am was a crowd favorite and the experience I had brewing the beer was incredible.

My experience with this has been that you will not get paid royalties, nor will you get your name on the label. Just be thankful you got to brew on a larger scale and got to develop your skill set further. Enjoy the recognition you get from your fellow homebrewers and enjoy the free beer they will give you in return for your work/recipe/efforts. Don't get a big head about it. Be humble and continue to grow as a brewer because of your experiences.

It's a freaking recipe. Just be stoked that it's out in the world for that many more people to enjoy.
 
Why don't you just sell them the recipe? A one time deal? If he likes it that much, he should fork over some cash.
 
Recipes are protected by copyright laws as long as you have it in a fixed form. IE. Not in your head.

You could put together a contract outlining all of the details of him brewing your beer. Be very clear in the rights you grant to your recipe.

Heck. If he likes it well enough just offer to license him the recipe. He pays you for the license, and is granted permission to brew and sell your beer commercially.

You could either do a flat fee, go for royalties, or perhaps a bit of both. And determine the length that the rights granted last. Which would then free you up after the term to do with it as you please. The whole while your recipe belongs to you.

The other option, is to sell him the recipe outright. Meaning it's no longer yours. In that case ask for more money.

It's like in anything creative. The more rights you grant to someone, the more they have to pay.
 

Similar threads

Stormcrow
Patoka Lake Brewing
Replies
1
Views
637
Sailingeric
Sailingeric
Brushwood Brewing
Help Me Choose My Next Beer Glass
Replies
32
Views
1K
day_trippr
day_trippr
F
So I would like to open a brewery...
Replies
23
Views
1K
madscientist451
madscientist451
R
Beware of the barrelbroker.com, its turned into a scam
Replies
2
Views
468
MaxStout
MaxStout
B
I`m Baaaack
Replies
2
Views
265
HBT_Admin
HBT_Admin
Yakima 300

Latest posts

Back
Top