how much sparge water?

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gkeusch

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Here is something I don't understand about sparge water quantity. I am using a picnic cooler approach to mashing. Is it possible to use too much sparge water (except for the obvious constraint of getting too much wort into the boiler)? Maybe another way of asking my question is, will too much sparge water have some negative effect like causing astringency or something? My follow up question is, once I use some maximum amount of sparge water per pound of grain (or whatever measurement is used), is that the best yield I can get to the boiler or can I add water (hot liquor) so that after boiling I still get a 5 gallon yield to the fermenter?

I very much appreciate somebody helping me with this.

Thanks,
Greg
 
If you sparge too much, it's possible to get some undesired tannin extraction. The general rule is to sparge until you get your desired boil volume or until your runnings are really thin (1.010-ish), whichever happens first. You can certainly top up your boil with more water, but you'll lower the gravity a bit, so make sure the wort is well over the target OG before topping up.
 
If you're not getting 5 gals into the fermenter, you're probably under-sparging and not getting all the sugars out that you could.

I use Beersmith (get the trial version!!!), but here's how it calculates how much water you need. I'll use lots of ~ and round to the nearest 1/2 qt - that's close enough for me. I'll also ignore MLT dead space and cooling losses, but these could add another 1-2 qts to your sparge water needed.

Your final volume will be ~ 85% of your volume into the boiler.
Your volume into the boiler will be your strike water - 0.12 gal/lb of grain + sparge water.

So say you're using 10 lbs of grain. You strike with 1.25 qts/lb = 12.5 qts. You lose ~ 1.2 gal to grain absorbtion. You've got ~ 7.5 qts left.

Suppose you want 5.5 gals into the fermenter. Then you need to have 6.5 gals (26 qts) into the boil kettle, because you'll lose ~ 1 gal in evaporation.

Now you're ready to figure your sparge water.
Sparge water = volume into kettle - volume out of mash = 26 qts - 7.5 qts = 18.5 qts =~ 4.5 gals
 
Onescalerguy said:
Try 1/2 gal per Lb of grain for sparge.That puts you roughly there.
Cheers
Click to expand...
That's crazy. Your saying that on my brew yesterday I would have had to sparge with 13 gallons for a 10 gallon batch. :drunk:
 
Did a 12g batch today and sparged with 9 gals for 19lbs of grain.Mashed with 6.5 gals. and ended up boiling near 14 gals to net 12.5gal in the fermenters.So the .5 g per lb. works.I got 84% effic. today.BTW.i AM crazy:p .
Cheers:mug:
 
Onescalerguy said:
Did a 12g batch today and sparged with 9 gals for 19lbs of grain.Mashed with 6.5 gals. and ended up boiling near 14 gals to net 12.5gal in the fermenters.So the .5 g per lb. works.I got 84% effic. today.BTW.i AM crazy:p .
Cheers:mug:
Click to expand...
My 12 gallons into the fermenter Friday was this.
Strike with 7.2 gallons, mashout with 4.3 gallons and sparge with 5.6 gallons giving me 14 gallons in the boil. That's with 25.7# of grain. So had I gone with your way and not what Beersmith says I would have had 21.25 gallos in a 15 gallon pot. :confused:

you striked with 6.5 for 19#? That's only .7qt/pound. That's way on the low side. So my "quess" is that your high effic is do to a lot of unfermentables produced with the large sparge (while the grain temp is coming up). Let us know where it finishes out at. I see it now... "Help, I can't get my FG under 1.022"

By the way. I hit 89.9%, not that it means much.
 
FSR402 said:
So my "quess" is that your high effic is do to a lot of unfermentables produced with the large sparge (while the grain temp is coming up).
Click to expand...

not to change the subject, but what is it that happens here? I'm an AG n00b.
 
Will too much sparge water have some negative effect like causing astringency or something? Yes, it will tend to extract more astringent compounds than a lower volume sparge. I do it by taste: when the extract starts to taste like unsweetened tea, it is time to stop.

Once I use some maximum amount of sparge water per pound of grain (or whatever measurement is used), is that the best yield I can get to the boiler or can I add water (hot liquor) so that after boiling I still get a 5 gallon yield to the fermenter? OK to add water during or after fermentation (boiled and cooled)
 
The Drizzle said:
not to change the subject, but what is it that happens here? I'm an AG n00b.
Click to expand...
It has mostly to do with temp and Ph of the mash.

What I was stating is this.
Because his mash was so light (dry) I don't think he as able to get a good extraction from the mash and most of it came from the sparge (rinse). Thus giving more unfermentables due to the higher temps. As you sparge (without a mash out) you are not only rinsing the grains but you are also raising the grain temp. During this time your conversion changes. And you start getting nonfermentable sugars and proteins. Which will give you a high OG (just like it has sugars) but the yeast wont be able to do anything with it, this gives you a high FG. Also a sweeter, maltier beer.
 
FSR402
I think you're awful full of it.Give it a rest.My techniques work plenty fine,after all it's just beer.RDWHAHB
Cheers:mug:
 
FSR402 said:
It has mostly to do with temp and Ph of the mash.

What I was stating is this.
Because his mash was so light (dry) I don't think he as able to get a good extraction from the mash and most of it came from the sparge (rinse). Thus giving more unfermentables due to the higher temps. As you sparge (without a mash out) you are not only rinsing the grains but you are also raising the grain temp. During this time your conversion changes. And you start getting nonfermentable sugars and proteins. Which will give you a high OG (just like it has sugars) but the yeast wont be able to do anything with it, this gives you a high FG. Also a sweeter, maltier beer.
Click to expand...


Ahh I got ya, i've been attempting a mashout but i never seem to get enough volume of boiling water infused to denature the enzymes. I'm curious to see how my brew yesterday finishes in the fermenter.
 
FSR, you're calcs are wrong. 6.5 gallons in 19lbs is 1.3qt/lb so his mash is fine. My ESB today was very similar. 19.25lbs grist, 6 gallons strike (1.25qt/lb), runoff about 4 gallons, 4.5 g sparge, 4.5 gallon sparge for a total of 13 gals in the kettle = 91.5% efficiency.

Why would you assume he had a poor conversion with no additional info?
 
Lil' Sparky said:
If you're not getting 5 gals into the fermenter, you're probably under-sparging and not getting all the sugars out that you could.

I use Beersmith (get the trial version!!!), but here's how it calculates how much water you need. I'll use lots of ~ and round to the nearest 1/2 qt - that's close enough for me. I'll also ignore MLT dead space and cooling losses, but these could add another 1-2 qts to your sparge water needed.

Your final volume will be ~ 85% of your volume into the boiler.
Your volume into the boiler will be your strike water - 0.12 gal/lb of grain + sparge water.

So say you're using 10 lbs of grain. You strike with 1.25 qts/lb = 12.5 qts. You lose ~ 1.2 gal to grain absorbtion. You've got ~ 7.5 qts left.

Suppose you want 5.5 gals into the fermenter. Then you need to have 6.5 gals (26 qts) into the boil kettle, because you'll lose ~ 1 gal in evaporation.

Now you're ready to figure your sparge water.
Sparge water = volume into kettle - volume out of mash = 26 qts - 7.5 qts = 18.5 qts =~ 4.5 gals
Click to expand...

Pretty much exactly what I do, I have all this in an excel spreadsheet, I enter in my # of grain, desired mash ratio and temp, it tells me how much water at what temperature to dough in with, then how much sparge water to use for what size batch I need....idiotproof, which is good, since I am an idiot!:mug:
 
Thanks for the support Bobby M.I knew his #'s were bad.I make damn ggod beer and was told i was way off....bullspit.
Cheers:mug:
 
ColoradoXJ13 said:
Pretty much exactly what I do, I have all this in an excel spreadsheet, I enter in my # of grain, desired mash ratio and temp, it tells me how much water at what temperature to dough in with, then how much sparge water to use for what size batch I need....idiotproof, which is good, since I am an idiot!:mug:
Click to expand...
Yeah, I use Beersmith now and love it. It took very little tinkering to get my volumes right. Now I'm within a qt every batch.

I was just showing how I used to do it in the old days. ;)
 
Bobby_M said:
FSR, you're calcs are wrong. 6.5 gallons in 19lbs is 1.3qt/lb so his mash is fine. My ESB today was very similar. 19.25lbs grist, 6 gallons strike (1.25qt/lb), runoff about 4 gallons, 4.5 g sparge, 4.5 gallon sparge for a total of 13 gals in the kettle = 91.5% efficiency.

Why would you assume he had a poor conversion with no additional info?
Click to expand...
Damn, you are right. I have no idea how I efed that up. But either way I feel that his golden rule of a half gallon per pound to be BS and overkill.

To the OP, just get some brewing software and do what it says.
 
FSR402 said:
Damn, you are right. I have no idea how I efed that up. But either way I feel that his golden rule of a half gallon per pound to be BS and overkill.
Click to expand...
A half-gallon per pound is a fairly general rule of thumb and advocated by a lot of good brewers here.

For example, I pulled this from the Hall of Fame threads -- a well-respected post by RichBrewer (read his #1 piece of advice):
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=30466

Can you sparge with less and make good beer? Sure. But I think calling this suggestion BS is going a bit far.
 
FlyGuy said:
A half-gallon per pound is a fairly general rule of thumb and advocated by a lot of good brewers here.

For example, I pulled this from the Hall of Fame threads -- a well-respected post by RichBrewer (read his #1 piece of advice):
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=30466

Can you sparge with less and make good beer? Sure. But I think calling this suggestion BS is going a bit far.
Click to expand...
I guess it comes down to if you mashout or not. If you do a mashout then the .5gal/pound is way to much (unless you're the one with the 160 qt brew pot). If no mash out (and you do the 1-1.37/pound mash) then it would not be a problem.
 
Thank you very much for taking the time to respond. It helps a lot!
 
Thank you very much for your response. I can go forward more confidently now!
 
Okay to so I feel really stupid for posting this but I am still learning from my mistakes and I have made a big one :) First grain and I didn't know what sparging was, well I thought it was just letting the gain bag drain of all liquid, I didn't know you had to add the water and the directions just said to "sparge", not with how much water to use.

So anyway, I did my boil with the rest of my hops and such and then cooled and dumped into my primary and added water till I got 5 gallons and pitched the yeast.

So I guess my question is what can I expect to get out of this batch? Should I just dump it?

It had a very rapid fermentation for the first 24 hours. The kit was Mr. Plow Milk Stout.

Thanks for the advice, I guess I can say at least I learned what sparging was! haha
 
you'll be ok. your opening gravity will be low and it may affect a few other things like color, etc. but in the end you will still have beer. chalk it up to experience and you can do it better next time.:mug:
 

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