Simcoe/Amarillo IPA critique

Putting together a Simcoe Amarillo IPA recipe and wanted some feedback about any aspect of the recipe

I'm aiming for a dry and clean IPA with enough malt character to support the hops but by no means interfere with their expression. Hoping to get a smooth mild to medium hop bitterness and a very pungent aromatic profile.

Grain Bill:
10.5 lb 2 Row
.75 lb Vienna
.50 lb White Wheat

Mash @ 150-152F to promote fermentability. 1.3 qt:1 lb water to grain ratio, 3.82 gal mash water and 4.04 gal sparge water.

Hop Schedule: (Not sure of the AA% of the hops I'll be using yet)
~25 AAU Simcoe @ 20 min
~12 AAU Amarillo @ 10 min
~10 AAU Simcoe @ 10 min
~7 AAU Amarillo @ 5 min
~6 AAU Simcoe @ 5 min
1 oz of Simcoe and Amarillo at KO

Shooting for about 60 IBU

Will be splitting this batch in two and fermenting equal volumes with separate yeasts (WLP 001 vs. WLP 008) to compare the results. Hoping to ferment at 65-68. Dry hopping at 1:1 ratio Simcoe and Amarillo with probably .5 oz of each per 3 gal carboy or 10 days. What size starter should I shoot for with two 2.5 gal batches?

Any input appeciated

No 60 minute addition? Are you sure you'll be getting enough IBU's from your late additions?

It seems like with a 2.5 gallon batch this size you could get away with pitching 1 vial directly into each with no starter.

I'd mash a little higher because there is no crystal malt in the grain bill.

One vial will work if it's fresh and healthy. I don't ever get liquid yeast in very good condition so I'd recommend a small starter.

strat_thru_marshall said:

No 60 minute addition? Are you sure you'll be getting enough IBU's from your late additions?

It seems like with a 2.5 gallon batch this size you could get away with pitching 1 vial directly into each with no starter.

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Beersmith has me quoted at 60 IBU's using this method. In any case I"d rather hit low than high and adjust the next go around.

I like the project. Subscribed.

My Simcoe Smash had alot of late additions and only 1 oz dry hop for 5 gal. The finish was grassy. There are some good comments in that thread on how that might be remedied.

I like a dry finish also so some of the things I plan on changing with my next attempt would be what I would offer here:

I think the proper bittering hops at 60 min, like Magnum, might help with the dry finish. Since the Magnum is high AA, a little goes a long way and it is fairly neutral in flavor. A touch of Amber malt is frequently suggested to help add to the dryness of the finish.

Conroe said:

I'd mash a little higher because there is no crystal malt in the grain bill.

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The very first AG I did was a very simple recipe using just 2-row base and some Crystal 40. I mashed around 149 and it was VERY dry and thin. The hop bitterness was very prominent and the malt characteristics failed to balance it. The next time I brewed a PA, I added some Munich (7%) and Victory (5%) to increase body and mouthfeel. If you want it that dry, stick w/ your plan. If you want a more balanced beer raise your mash temps as suggested above--maybe even to 152-154 range. This produces more unfermentable dextrins. However, your lack of bittering addition may work well with the lower mash temps.

Personally I would add some 60 min bittering hops and raise my mash temps a little.

Let us know how it goes & Good luck

Should I increase the proportion of my specialty grains a bit to help add some character?

Will probably raise my mash temp two degrees as well

Try it as is, its the only way to figure out what different things such as specialty grains and mash temps will do. Just don't change too many things in one brew or you won't be able to pinpoint what did what. Even if what you get is not ideal, it will still be good...I called mine a High Desert Dry Pale Ale and drank the hell out of it!!!

The Vienna is a character malt like Munich and Victory and in a good proportion. The wheat will help with head retention though it will also increase cloudiness. CaraPils or CaraFoam will do the same thing w/ less haze. If you stick w/ your hops schedule I think 152 will be just fine.

I'd mash a little higher, use a lower attenuating yeast or add in some crystal or other specialty malts if you want to keep some malt character. With all base malt you should end up pretty dry as is, but thats not necessarily a bad thing in an IPA.

I'm a big fan of hopbursting, but I'd still add a pinch of hops at the start of the boil. They do other things besides add bitterness, such as aid in protein seperation during the hot break.

JuanMoore said:

I'm a big fan of hopbursting, but I'd still add a pinch of hops at the start of the boil. They do other things besides add bitterness, such as aid in protein seperation during the hot break.

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Ahhh, good point. I may do a little just for those reasons

Your recipe looks fine and at this point you're just going to get comments from people on how to turn your beer into their beer.

However, I do heartily agree with the comments about 60min addition. I was really excited about hop bursting for awhile, so I did a bunch of reading about it. Over and over I saw people saying 1) The beer tasted way less bitter than the software predicted and 2) Even when they added another 50-100% MORE, they still couldn't get the beer bitter enough.

I still haven't done any beers with only late additions, but if I ever do, it won't be anything that's supposed to be more bitter than an APA.

So just toss 14-28g of hops in the beginning and you'll be right on track.

I'd mash a little higher because there is no crystal malt in the grain bill.

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^^ Ignore that, no crystal malts needed (this forum seems to have a love affair with crystal malt)

emacgee - I put your recipe into Promash and got an OG of 10.67 @ 75 % eff. Is that what you are going for? If so I would boost the Vienna malt and maybe the 2-row to get more like 1.070 (slight diff, but will help with the malt backbone). Use ~2lbs Vienna regardless to increase the malt perception.

You could also try FWH, where you added a portion of the flavor hops to the kettle as you collect your runnings. It adds a nice smooth bitterness that works great in IPAs, and then you won't have to do the 60 min addition.

Hop bursting - I have had "great success" with it, but with a 1.070ish OG, you may need to do a 60 min or FWH to get the bitterness at the front of each sip. I know you want your bitterness to be somewhat mellow, but you have to at least balance the malt.

I still haven't done any beers with only late additions, but if I ever do, it won't be anything that's supposed to be more bitter than an APA.

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I think that APA is the style you can get away with 100% hop busting. IPA needs a little 60 min/FWH booster.

funkswing said:

(this forum seems to have a love affair with crystal malt)

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I have found the exact opposite... HBT users are terrified of too much crystal malt. Once you start putting more than a pound in ANY recipe, peoples' heads start exploding.

Personally I love crystal - I love the extra sweetness it can provide, and I love candy and caramel flavors in my beers. But like I said above, I'm not going to tell someone how to turn their beer into my beer, so don't think I'm telling you that this recipe must have crystal.

(Also, I started out this post by typing "hopposite"... brewing on the brain too much?)

Once you start putting more than a pound in ANY recipe, peoples' heads start exploding.

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Because that is ridiculous!

Do you think I could substitute Maris Otter for the 2 Row and keep the proportions the same in order to improve the malt character? I'm trying to keep this on the light side (color wise) and would like to go with the route that gives me the best balance with the lightest profile.

emacgee said:

Do you think I could substitute Maris Otter for the 2 Row and keep the proportions the same in order to improve the malt character? I'm trying to keep this on the light side (color wise) and would like to go with the route that gives me the best balance with the lightest profile.

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I brew an ipa (more of a fan of centennial/cascade than simcoe/amarillo though) with a similar grain bill/mash profile to yours with Maris Otter and it doesn't last long in the keg. I think that MO is a better way to go. One thing that you might want to try is following the historic approach of a thicker mash. Ray Daniels talks about it in Designing Great Beers.

I look forward to hearing how your brews turn out.

I agree that a small 60min addition is a good idea. It'll help with protein coagulation, but it'll also make your boil more stable. IIRC, this is what Firestone Walker does with their Pale 31.

I'd personally also add a small amount of a light Crystal, maybe 4-8oz of C20 or Cara Vienne. I've found that if an IPA gets too dry, the bitterness can get too sharp or harsh. A touch of sweetness would help to balance that out.

0110x011 said:

I'd personally also add a small amount of a light Crystal, maybe 4-8oz of C20 or Cara Vienne. I've found that if an IPA gets too dry, the bitterness can get too sharp or harsh. A touch of sweetness would help to balance that out.

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Not disagreeing but wouldn't the MO take care of that? I have never brewed with it as my sole base grain but I thought it provided more body and sweetness than 2-row pale.

funkswing said:

^^ Ignore that, no crystal malts needed (this forum seems to have a love affair with crystal malt).

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What are you talking about? I simply told him another way to get dextrins to balance the recipe not to add any crystal.
I don't think a hoppy beer under 1.010 is a good thing. 1.013-1.015 is good.

keep it with no crystal, or just add a few ounces of crystal 10. I like the non-malty IPA idea.

i would add a tiny 60 min addition, i find it helps with a "hop backbone."