possible control panel enclosure?

I am designing my system, which is going to be relatively simple. It is going to be based on the second wiring diagram from this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/simple-eherms-following-pjs-diagram-w-only-1-pid-221403/ although I am going to add an E-Stop circuit similar to Ohio-Ed's.

I also think I would like to have the pumps mounted in the case if possible.

Would this tool box contain everything?
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003XVMHAE/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I just think it would look sweet to have a briefcase style toolbox control panel for my new brew rig, because I would like rig to be semi-portable.

To be honest with you, just look on ebay for metal enclosures. You can find them really cheap. I purchased a 12x12x6 that already had a back plate in it. The only problem was there already was a 2" hole cut in the top and I needed to cover it. I got a metal electrical outlet cover and jb welded it to the opening. Then it did have scratched in it so i bought some paint and it looks brand new..

Tool boxes are not water safe. If you get a enclosure make sure it has a splash rating or a gasket.

I've got a metal enclosure at home I'll sell you. I think it is 12*12*6. It has some cut outs though. They would fit a PID & switches depending on what size you use.

I would rather have a plastic briefcase like this if it will work...

The amazon page says its watertight, and how water tight can anything with holes cut in it, and components mounted be anyways?

Should work. Components can be watertight. Look for NEMA ratings on components. NEMA 4 will get you there. NEMA 12 is more of a drip rating.
The plastic might be kinda thick; that might make mounting some things tough. Heat build-up might be worse as well, but not likely a huge problem.

I'm sure P-J will be in the thread as well, but if you need help with anything on the diagram or questions feel free to PM me. My panel is completed and housed with my March pump. This was somewhat of a concern with liquid so close, but with pump head mounted vertically and ball valve on output, the chance of wort entering the tool box is very slim. Still thinking of a way to ensure no liquid enters, but I guess thats why we use GFCI.

RDWHAHB said:

Should work. Components can be watertight. Look for NEMA ratings on components. NEMA 4 will get you there. NEMA 12 is more of a drip rating.
The plastic might be kinda thick; that might make mounting some things tough. Heat build-up might be worse as well, but not likely a huge problem.

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Or you can easily solve both problems by crafting an interior panel (you can make it out of aluminum, for example), and mounting the controls to it. That way, there'd be no holes to the case, and it'd be watertight as long as you keep it closed.

I'll also add:
I don't claim you need a NEMA rating; I was just saying that it is possible (in response to your question).

Squeeky said:

I'm sure P-J will be in the thread as well, but if you need help with anything on the diagram or questions feel free to PM me. My panel is completed and housed with my March pump. This was somewhat of a concern with liquid so close, but with pump head mounted vertically and ball valve on output, the chance of wort entering the tool box is very slim. Still thinking of a way to ensure no liquid enters, but I guess thats why we use GFCI.

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Ha.! I've been watching it since HHP started it. I'll jump in when the concerns turn to the wiring and/or the process function.

Just to weigh in a little, I often recommend the Auberin Instruments - Project Box for this wiring setup. (Squeeky - you know that as I recommended it to you as well.) It's not a water proof box. I have my reasons and recommend it without reservation. It's about the process. Safety is built in with a properly wired & managed rig.

P-J

P-J said:

Ha.! I've been watching it since HHP started it. I'll jump in when the concerns turn to the wiring and/or the process function.

Just to weigh in a little, I often recommend the Auberin Instruments - Project Box for this wiring setup. (Squeeky - you know that as I recommended it to you as well.) It's not a water proof box. I have my reasons and recommend it without reservation. It's about the process. Safety is built in with a properly wired & managed rig.

P-J

Click to expand...

Good to know P-J, I'll bite.

So I would like to have one pump mounted right away, and possibly later add another pump (just going with one right now for cost reasons).

Now for some basic wiring questions: When I see other peoples rigs they seem to have a raised piece of something, be it plastic or metal that all of their components are mounted to. If this were your project, how exactly would you go about wiring this up?

Here is my 12x12x6 metal inclosure. With all the lights and switches I have, 12x12x6 was the worst mistake i made in this build. Everything is very tight, hard to run wires, and i can't expand. I have a SSR which heats up and I wouldn't put it in a plastic box.

Anyone know anything about the auber 2362 PID, I'm having problems with it.

I did the auberins box for my build. I was just able to squeeze in the parts for mine with two contactors and two element outlets in the back (one PID and one SSR) and a pump outlet. If you want a box to expand in, the auberins one isn't really the best choice. If you are going one PID and one element it is perfect.

Here is a view into my project box for reference:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/electric-burners-any-builders-out-there-228720/index25.html

Man, it looks really cool but I can't read anything. Is there a way to blow it up. That might help with my build. Are you doing a RIMS?

pola0502ds said:

Man, it looks really cool but I can't read anything. Is there a way to blow it up. That might help with my build. Are you doing a RIMS?

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Oh you mean the wiring diagram? I am building a herms down the road, with one PID that will support two elements (not at the same time of course).

Trying ot figure out how to get a higher resolution pic posted. I could also email it to you if you PM me.

When I post the file it lowers the resolution, I can send you a JPG or visio file of the end diagram - let me know. Or let me know how to post the higher res file and I will do it.

At the end of the day I put together my final wiring diagram with an alarm, and a power indicator light into the box (but the indicator didn't fit and I have decided to wait on the alarm). I also added a fan with a switch on the right side that blows into the box on my SSR heat sink. Since the auberins box has a vented back, it works great. Blows in to cool the heat sink and vents out the back.

P-J

Is it possible to get the afore mentioned schematic drawn up with a relay controlling which element? I really dont like the idea of my hand touching a switch that has 30A 240v running through it...

pola0502ds said:

Here is my 12x12x6 metal inclosure. With all the lights and switches I have, 12x12x6 was the worst mistake i made in this build. Everything is very tight, hard to run wires, and i can't expand. I have a SSR which heats up and I wouldn't put it in a plastic box.

Anyone know anything about the auber 2362 PID, I'm having problems with it.

Click to expand...

I know whatcha mean. I'll be pretty much completely filling up the front of the enclosure, definitely completely filling up the right side of it, and using about a third of the left side. I will have it much worse than you did, but I know it's do-able.

If you could please post a pic of the interior. I'd like to see how bad it is.

HHP said:

P-J

Is it possible to get the afore mentioned schematic drawn up with a relay controlling which element? I really dont like the idea of my hand touching a switch that has 30A 240v running through it...

Click to expand...

HHP,

Ok - here is a diagram that uses a DPDT - Center Off switch to control the contactors. The switch has a plastic handle so that it should eliminate the concern. Additionally, I added an EPO switch that is designed to trip the GFCI breaker in the mains panel in the event of an emergency.
(Click on the image to see a ful scale diagram.)



Hope this helps you.

EarthBound said:

I know whatcha mean. I'll be pretty much completely filling up the front of the enclosure, definitely completely filling up the right side of it, and using about a third of the left side. I will have it much worse than you did, but I know it's do-able.

If you could please post a pic of the interior. I'd like to see how bad it is.

Click to expand...

I can do that, I just read your post today and I'm at work now. I will take a pick this weekend and try to post if before monday. But, it will most likely be monday when I post it.

P-J, much better. My system is different than yours. I am having problems with mine and some of what you show in that diagram may help me out.

P-J

Thanks a bunch. I am going to build it just like this, although I may use Ohio-Ed's E-Stop circuit for the sheer bling factor of the on button and the satisfying clunk as the contactor throws...

HHP said:

P-J

Thanks a bunch. I am going to build it just like this, although I may use Ohio-Ed's E-Stop circuit for the sheer bling factor of the on button and the satisfying clunk as the contactor throws...

Click to expand...

Whats the E-stop?

EarthBound said:

I know whatcha mean. I'll be pretty much completely filling up the front of the enclosure, definitely completely filling up the right side of it, and using about a third of the left side. I will have it much worse than you did, but I know it's do-able.

If you could please post a pic of the interior. I'd like to see how bad it is.

Click to expand...

Here are the pics.

It doesn't look that bad but trust me, it is. Because it's only 6" deep, the components on the panel make it impossible to add anything else when the door is shut. It makes things really hard to work with as well. Go 8" deep or deeper.

pola0502ds said:

It doesn't look that bad but trust me, it is. Because it's only 6" deep, the components on the panel make it impossible to add anything else when the door is shut. It makes things really hard to work with as well. Go 8" deep or deeper.

Click to expand...

I was going to say - looks freakin' spacious compared to mine!

Trust me, because it's only 6" deep when you shut the door, the components on the door fill up the empty space you see on the inside of the box. There is absolutely no room what-so-ever to add anything else.

pola and Cidah, I feel your pain!

Check out my current control panel and imagine fitting in what I'm about to fit in: I'll be installing 3 PIDs (SYL-2352), 3 SSRs, 4 DPST relays, a 120VAC to 24VAC xfmr, 3 TCs (for the PIDs), a timer (ASL-51), a timer reset button, an alarm indication light, an alarm buzzer, 4 alarms switches, another bus (the 120VAC Hot B Bus), a 4-position switch, and element indication lights (HLT, MLT, and BK), and a brewery label. The PIDs and timer will have to be mounted on the sides!

I know it'll be do-able, though, cuz I measured and calculated it all out. I just gotta make sure the wiring is clean and organized (unlike what it is right now!).

good luck with that, seriously. Your heat sinks are going to cause problems unless you mount it on the outside which i recommend.

Haha - very cool build

I would recc installing the heat sinks on the outside or venting your box and putting in a fan or two to keep the SSRs cool. One guy on here had a seal box with sinks inside, and his SSR was toasted, he thought from overheating. I ended up installing a fan on my box to blow across the sink and vent out the back.

pola0502ds said:

good luck with that, seriously.

Click to expand...

Luck is one of my skills.

I will definitely be mounting the heatsinks on the outside (on the top).

BTW, my enclosure size is 14"x12"x6".

pola0502ds said:

good luck with that, seriously. Your heat sinks are going to cause problems unless you mount it on the outside which i recommend.

Click to expand...

CidahMastah said:

One guy on here had a seal box with sinks inside, and his SSR was toasted, he thought from overheating.

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I believe you are talking about me here, Cidah.

This is how I fixed it; one blows in, one blows out:

Walker said:

I believe you are talking about me here, Cidah.

This is how I fixed it; one blows in, one blows out:

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busted! yup I was talking about you. I had thought to go grab a pic of your fan situation, but you beat me to it

Well you saved the premature death of my SSR at least

CidahMastah said:

Haha - very cool build

I would recc installing the heat sinks on the outside or venting your box and putting in a fan or two to keep the SSRs cool. One guy on here had a seal box with sinks inside, and his SSR was toasted, he thought from overheating. I ended up installing a fan on my box to blow across the sink and vent out the back.

Click to expand...

I use a 120v 1500w heating element on my rims system and I have touched the heat sink after running for a few hours and it's not even warm. It may get warm for the 5500w elements, I don't know.

pola0502ds said:

I use a 120v 1500w heating element on my rims system and I have touched the heat sink after running for a few hours and it's not even warm. It may get warm for the 5500w elements, I don't know.

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I shot a laser thermometer at mine and it got to ~190F before I added my fan (at the advice of Walker). That is when he told me he toasted one of his SSR's.

For the record, my system is 240v 5500Welement - so that would be the difference in your personal experience and mine.

My control panel was designed for 10G batches.

Mine is designed for 10 gallons as well. I'm using a rims tube and you might be doing something different? The way my system is designed, I am getting amazing ramp times with this small element.

pola0502ds said:

Mine is designed for 10 gallons as well. I'm using a rims tube and you might be doing something different? The way my system is designed, I am getting amazing ramp times with this small element.

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you are doing 10 gallon boils with a 1500w element? Or are you talking about your mash temps only.

CidahMastah said:

you are doing 10 gallon boils with a 1500w element? Or are you talking about your mash temps only.

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He said RIMS tube, it's for stepping up mash temperature, not heating boil volumes.

O'Haggerty said:

He said RIMS tube, it's for stepping up mash temperature, not heating boil volumes.

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My point was.... you need to either have a ginormous heat sink, or vent it with a fan - or risk burning out your SSR as walker did if you plan on going electric for your boil.

I know what a rims is, but I am wondering how he boils (just checked his thread and looks like he is a gas boil - didn't expect that so my bad).

I just assumed if you have the electrical control box, you would absolutely aim to boil electric as well as mash, etc.

If you go for your boil you would need - 1. a 4500W+ or higher element for 10G 2. a standard heat sink would get very warm. Since he is on gas this is irrelevant.

It looks like earthbound is on gas for the boil - so now I see where poland is coming from.

Yes, currently I'm using a propane RIMS/HERMS systems right now, but I will be upgrading my brewstand to have ERIMS (via a RIMS tube) and EHERMS (which uses two elements, one in the HLT and one in the BK).

When you measured ~190F, did you have any heatsinks installed?

EarthBound said:

Yes, currently I'm using a propane RIMS/HERMS systems right now, but I will be upgrading my brewstand to have ERIMS (via a RIMS tube) and EHERMS (which uses two elements, one in the HLT and one in the BK).

When you measured ~190F, did you have any heatsinks installed?

Click to expand...

yes I had a 40amp rated sink installed. I was getting 190F on the heat sink fins - and my box was vented and it was cool out.

If you are going two smaller elements off two SSRs it might be a different story - mine is set up as 1 5500e 10 system. The HLT is the BK as well.