A real biere de champagne

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rexbanner

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I was thinking about trying to make a serious biere de champagne. 15% ABV. I still want it to taste good, though. Any ideas of how to go about this? I was thinking of basically a huge Belgian golden strong fermented with an ale yeast and then finished off with champagne yeast. There's a podcast with a wine guy, Shea Comfort, where he talks about how you can use convertase (sp?) to free up some or even all of the sugars in wort that wine yeast can't ferment. I was thinking of using either WLP530 or Brett brux to ferment the first have of the beer, and when they give up, adding the convertase and a champagne yeast to take it the rest of the way. Champagne yeast is neutral so I think a flavorful primary yeast would be necessary to avoid a bland, boozy beer. Any thoughts?
 
Brett isn't good for that kind of primary fermentation.

There's people around here who have pushed some of the common brewing strains up to 15% or higher. Usually you're looking at making multiple sugar additions during fermentation to push it that high.
 
Brett isn't good for that kind of primary fermentation.

There's people around here who have pushed some of the common brewing strains up to 15% or higher. Usually you're looking at making multiple sugar additions during fermentation to push it that high.

Why isn't brett good for that? Also I really want to try the wine yeast thing, bc once I figure out the right amount of convertase to add then it's an easy beer to make again.
 
As far as I know, a Biere de Champagne is made using the methode champanoise to ferment beer. This involves bottling the beer or wine with priming sugar and fresh yeast and a crown cap and placing them slightly tilted, neck-down, in a rack so that the yeast begins to collect in the neck. You then rotate the bottles a few times a day to collect all of the yeast as it ages. When this is complete you freeze the neck of the bottle and remove the cap. The pressure forces out the frozen yeast. You then recap the bottle quickly to maintain the pressure and carbonate.

I would use an ale yeast to ferment a big beer and add champagne yeast with priming sugar and bottle. But without the methode champanois it's not going to be a bier de champagne.
 
What ploppy said is an important consideration. If you're just trying for one of those high end, high ABV blond ales it's not going to be a bier de champagne without the methode. It's just going to be a big blonde ale.

As a primary fermenter, brett doesn't superattenuate. It will ferment exactly like a regular ale strain, if you can even get it to ferment that much sugar at once, and then knock out. It will leave all the complex sugars behind. So you'll end up with the same thing as fermenting with a neutral strain but you'll take on more risk of a stuck fermentation and maybe end up with a hint of brett character.
 
What ploppy said is an important consideration. If you're just trying for one of those high end, high ABV blond ales it's not going to be a bier de champagne without the methode. It's just going to be a big blonde ale.

As a primary fermenter, brett doesn't superattenuate. It will ferment exactly like a regular ale strain, if you can even get it to ferment that much sugar at once, and then knock out. It will leave all the complex sugars behind. So you'll end up with the same thing as fermenting with a neutral strain but you'll take on more risk of a stuck fermentation and maybe end up with a hint of brett character.

Isn't it just a way to remove yeast? I'm not too concerned about that, just with making a high abv highly carbonated effervescent ale.

Also, there's no risk of a stuck fermentation using the method I described. I think some brett brux character could be nice, too.
 
I'm not sure what else it contributes other than being a way to reduce yeast. though this probably has more of an impact in wine making than beer making. But it's not champagne beer unless it's done this way (St Bernardus do a 6% dubbel using this method. It's called Grottenbier and it's nice and dry)
 
Isn't it just a way to remove yeast? I'm not too concerned about that, just with making a high abv highly carbonated effervescent ale.

Also, there's no risk of a stuck fermentation using the method I described. I think some brett brux character could be nice, too.

Have you ever done an all brett beer?
 
Have you ever done an all brett beer?

Yes. I have some washed brett b ready to roll in my fridge. I think it's a good flavor and I think this might be a way to add some complexity to the beer, but I think a Belgian strain would work as well. I just don't think that a 100% wine yeast fermented beer would be interesting enough, having read about others that have tried that. The supposed fruitiness that wine yeast contributes was not enough to be all that interesting of beer, from what I read.
 
Going into a potentially 15% beer you're going to need a huge starter to get that brett going. Even with a huge starter I would be concerned about it giving you the finger and taking a nap during fermentation. I also wonder how long it would take to get stable. Even in a single digit ABV beer it takes a couple months to stabilize.

I'd also think if there's some sugars or starches left behind by the convertase and champagne yeast might kick off an extended brett tertiary fermentation. Although aging is probably something you'll want to do anyway but something else to consider.
 
Going into a potentially 15% beer you're going to need a huge starter to get that brett going. Even with a huge starter I would be concerned about it giving you the finger and taking a nap during fermentation. I also wonder how long it would take to get stable. Even in a single digit ABV beer it takes a couple months to stabilize.

I'd also think if there's some sugars or starches left behind by the convertase and champagne yeast might kick off an extended brett tertiary fermentation. Although aging is probably something you'll want to do anyway but something else to consider.

I'm not sure I was clear enough. The wine yeast finishes the fermentation. Whatever primary yeast you use can quit whenever. Convertase + wine yeast finishes it. Ain't nothin gonna stop that.

I'll try this soon enough and post some results.
 
This caught my eye http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/mikkeller-nelson-sauvignon/115037/

According to Mikkeller it's a Belgian ale finished with Brett and enzymes(?) to make it really dry. Nelson sauvin hops provide the wine character along with white wine barrel aging. Seems like their making something champagne-like from beer, rather than making beer like champagne. Still no wine yeast though...I did a search, it seems that champagne yeast works really slowly in beer, over months, and contributes a nice head with small bubbles.
 
I think the way to go about this would be a nice pale strong ale of belgian influence with base malt up to 9-10% abv. Then I'd add sugar and champnagne yeast from that point to raise the abv to the point you want. I wouldn't go much higher than 13% if it were me. Most champagnes don't push much past 12%. I think it'll be harder to get something that tastes good if you're trying for 15%. I think it would take multiple attempts to nail a good beer at that level of alcohol just for the sake of hitting 15%.

Doing it that way will get your beer characteristics. Also if you want to use brett I'd ferment it with a sacch strain and brett strain for 4 months or so. Then start adding the sugar and champagne yeast. If you still feel it needs convertase then you can add it at this point as well. I suspect that between the brett and sugar additions you'll end up plenty dry. In place of sugar you can always use grape juice concentrate meant for white wine/champagne. I don't know how much you want it to be like a champagne though.

So you're not planning on riddling the beer?
 
This caught my eye http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/mikkeller-nelson-sauvignon/115037/

According to Mikkeller it's a Belgian ale finished with Brett and enzymes(?) to make it really dry. Nelson sauvin hops provide the wine character along with white wine barrel aging. Seems like their making something champagne-like from beer, rather than making beer like champagne. Still no wine yeast though...I did a search, it seems that champagne yeast works really slowly in beer, over months, and contributes a nice head with small bubbles.

Nelson sauvin sounds like a good choice. Haven't had a chance to use it yet, but I've loved the beers that use it.

I think the way to go about this would be a nice pale strong ale of belgian influence with base malt up to 9-10% abv. Then I'd add sugar and champnagne yeast from that point to raise the abv to the point you want. I wouldn't go much higher than 13% if it were me. Most champagnes don't push much past 12%. I think it'll be harder to get something that tastes good if you're trying for 15%. I think it would take multiple attempts to nail a good beer at that level of alcohol just for the sake of hitting 15%.

Doing it that way will get your beer characteristics. Also if you want to use brett I'd ferment it with a sacch strain and brett strain for 4 months or so. Then start adding the sugar and champagne yeast. If you still feel it needs convertase then you can add it at this point as well. I suspect that between the brett and sugar additions you'll end up plenty dry. In place of sugar you can always use grape juice concentrate meant for white wine/champagne. I don't know how much you want it to be like a champagne though.

So you're not planning on riddling the beer?

Yeah, I think pitching both is a good idea because brett is so slow. Also I agree about lowering the alcohol to 12%. Plenty high.
 
Interesting post. I can give you some contributions.

- I suggest to take care of the freezing point. I tried once to rotate and to clear the beer without freezing it but the yeast is too viscous and you can take only a portion of it away.

- Taking it away is crucial because, doing it, you will lose some beer that you have to replace with other beer + sugar. This liquid is called "liqueur d’expedition" and it is different from the first priming (called "liqueur tirage") because it must NOT be fermented again, since it is used to adjust acidity and sweetness. "The actual sugar content will also depend on a wines style:
Extra brut (0-6 grams/litre), Bone dry
Brut (0-15 grams/litre), Dry to very dry
Extra sec or extra dry (12-20 grams/litre) dry to medium dry
Sec or Dry (17-35 grams/litre) more medium to medium sweet
Demi-sec or Rich (35-50 grams/litre) sweet
Doux (50 grams + per litre) very sweet but this style is no longer commercially produced."
( https://www.champagnegallery.com.au/champagne-science/vinification/liqueurs-d-expedition-tirage/ )

- Some examples of Bière de Champagne show how low or high you can go (none over 12%):
http://beeradvocate.com/beer/style/141

- Champagne can stay on yeast for many months, even up to 2 years. You can try using this method on batch of bottles of 3-6-9-12 monts to see the difference. In any case, I would use a recipe not too extreme since if it's too hoppy or too alcoholic, you would notice it many months after your experiment. If possible, I would use an already tested recipe. Test the Nelson Sauvin first, it can give a hint of garlic that is quite peculiar.

- Bottle some beer without the method, to make a comparison.

- Champagne can go up to 6 volumes of CO2 but some lower versions are made at 3. Either way, check your bottles if you plan to get this high.

- If you want a pedant annotation, you are using the "méthode traditionnelle" since, for copyright reasons, you cannot use the "méthode champenoise" other than producing a champagne (in the french region).

Please share the recipe, I'm curious :)
Cheers from Italy! :mug:
Piteko
 
I'd be interested in any update, too. Enlightenment makes a bíere de champagne, too.
 
I'd be interested in any update, too. Enlightenment makes a bíere de champagne, too.

Yeah! I would like to build a golden belgian ale recipes with zesty flavor and little oak soak in chardonnay white wine. Also, combine 2 yeast, golden ale (primary) and champagne (secondary) for the sparkling mouthfeel. I dont want to filter the first yeast beacause i want to keep the bilgian yeast flavor and i don't want to do the champenoise technique (pain in the ...). Do you thing it's gonna work? Golden belgian strong ale or strong saison?
 
Yeah! I would like to build a golden belgian ale recipes with zesty flavor and little oak soak in chardonnay white wine. Also, combine 2 yeast, golden ale (primary) and champagne (secondary) for the sparkling mouthfeel. I dont want to filter the first yeast beacause i want to keep the bilgian yeast flavor and i don't want to do the champenoise technique (pain in the ...). Do you thing it's gonna work? Golden belgian strong ale or strong saison?

A couple things. First, why use the champagne yeast? Either WLP 550 or 570 (or the wyeast equivalents) is capable of fermenting under 1.008 or better. Wine yeasts can't ferment complex sugars, which will be all that is left when the beer yeast gets done. If your goal is to end up with beer that is high ABV, 12% or over, I suggest brewing a standard strong golden ale recipe of around 9-10% with a normal precentage of sugar for the style, and then adding sugar to the beer in secondary a few times until it gets to where you want it. I've never tried it, but it's suggested in the Deus clone recipe from BYO. I would't use saison yeast. I've only had one strong saison I liked and the rest have been disgusting. I don't feel it's a style that lends itself well to beers starting over 1.056 or so. I like saisons to finish under 1.004. Finishing a big beer that low almost always tastes boozy or even sweet from the alcohol and saisons that aren't that dry are usually not good.
 
Ok! The champagne yeast is for the sparkling, bubling lighting mouthfeel you have in champagne or sparkling wine or cider. For the dry finished too i read it can help. It's a good suggestion to add sugar after (candy?). But the major point is... if i don't do the champenoise thing, it doesn't matter? Except for the clarification? Thanx a lot!

Ps: sorry for my english, i'm a french canadian! Lol
 
Ok! The champagne yeast is for the sparkling, bubling lighting mouthfeel you have in champagne or sparkling wine or cider. For the dry finished too i read it can help. It's a good suggestion to add sugar after (candy?). But the major point is... if i don't do the champenoise thing, it doesn't matter? Except for the clarification? Thanx a lot!

Ps: sorry for my english, i'm a french canadian! Lol

Your english is much better than my french. The sparkling bubbles are from being highly carbonated and have nothing to do with the kind of yeast. Skipping the champenoise should have little to no effect on the flavor of the beer.
 
Thank you! But the head and mouthfeel is different (ex:british and trappist)? Its not the same thing with CY?

British beers are usually less carbonated than Trappist beers. Mouthfeel is a combination of things, what grains are used, FG, and the amount of glycerol produced by the yeast. I think there is little variation amongst sacchromyces strains in the amount of glycerol produced.
 
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