explosivebeer
Well-Known Member
wortmonger said:
That would definitely be appreciated. Good luck with your other projects!
Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!
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That would definitely be appreciated. Good luck with your other projects!
explosivebeer
Well-Known Member
Kaiser said:
Yeah I was curious to find more info so I could be responsive to what the pressure the yeast needs at different points in the fermentation. If you took gravity samples and let them sit for awhile to depressurize/decarbonate, would you be able to get accurate readings?
OP
OP
Yep, all you need is to degas the sample. I have found that a foodsaver works great for degassing my hydro samples. I put the jar adapter on and vacuum away, shake, then vacuum again. When I finally take my reading, the wort is at room temperature or close enough to take the reading and adjust. I really like the pressure ferment, but will be experimenting with lessor pressure in future batches. 2-5 psi is supposed to be good for yeast growth and from Poindexter's experiment I would say it holds the kraeusen down the same. Can't wait for my next batch on my revamped HLT and MT. I get them back tomorrow, yeah!!!!!!! You will have to check out My HLT Project and see the finished product.
karbinator
Well-Known Member
Wortmonger,
This is very interesting. I'm a newbie with only 4 extract batches to account for, so pardon my ignorance.
---Will a 7.5 sanke (I could) work for this on 5 gallon batches?
-- I'm confused about the illustration of two kegs connected together. When I read your original post, it reads like it's just one sanke with a modded bleed off valve that has incremental settings. The illustration is something different?
--Other than cutting 3/4" off the spear, the internals are the same, yes?
--When you rack/pump from your primary into a sanke...have you removed the
the internal spear/spring/ball , or are you doing this some other way?
Thanks for any clarity, it's much appreciated.
Karb
This is very interesting. I'm a newbie with only 4 extract batches to account for, so pardon my ignorance.
---Will a 7.5 sanke (I could) work for this on 5 gallon batches?
-- I'm confused about the illustration of two kegs connected together. When I read your original post, it reads like it's just one sanke with a modded bleed off valve that has incremental settings. The illustration is something different?
--Other than cutting 3/4" off the spear, the internals are the same, yes?
--When you rack/pump from your primary into a sanke...have you removed the
the internal spear/spring/ball , or are you doing this some other way?
Thanks for any clarity, it's much appreciated.
Karb
OP
OP
Yes, a 7.5 gallons Sanke should work just great for a 5 gallon batch.
The illustration shows how you can purge another keg during fermentation. The primary fermenter is the only keg that has 3/4" cut off to avoid trub. When I first started I didn't have the ability to do what I do know and it grew from that. Nothing is removed from either keg, they are rigged up as normal and the tap is the only thing that changes up.
You could if you wanted to take the dip tube spear assembly out and ferment without it in the keg, but then you would have to put something in to get your beer out. You really need to take a Sanke apart and look at it then you will understand better how/why it works the way I talked about and illustrated. I would be happy to answer any more of your questions though.
edit: Sorry, when I transfer from kettle to primary I have the keg hooked up just like any normal keg only the tap has the gas-in check valve removed so air can escape as the beer goes in. When I rack from primary to secondary/serving keg I hook it up just like a normal keg with a normal tap. The target keg gets the same treatment as the primary did when filling from the kettle, only this time a adjustable pressure relief valve is on the gas-in port to slowly relieve pressure and allow for a counter pressure filling of the target keg.
The illustration shows how you can purge another keg during fermentation. The primary fermenter is the only keg that has 3/4" cut off to avoid trub. When I first started I didn't have the ability to do what I do know and it grew from that. Nothing is removed from either keg, they are rigged up as normal and the tap is the only thing that changes up.
You could if you wanted to take the dip tube spear assembly out and ferment without it in the keg, but then you would have to put something in to get your beer out. You really need to take a Sanke apart and look at it then you will understand better how/why it works the way I talked about and illustrated. I would be happy to answer any more of your questions though.
edit: Sorry, when I transfer from kettle to primary I have the keg hooked up just like any normal keg only the tap has the gas-in check valve removed so air can escape as the beer goes in. When I rack from primary to secondary/serving keg I hook it up just like a normal keg with a normal tap. The target keg gets the same treatment as the primary did when filling from the kettle, only this time a adjustable pressure relief valve is on the gas-in port to slowly relieve pressure and allow for a counter pressure filling of the target keg.
OP
OP
I'm working on a way to not have to cut the spear. I am thinking of an extra large racking cane end-piece type of thing you can just put on the end and it will keep the sediment out of the transfer/rack.
Poindexter
Well-Known Member
explosivebeer said:
I think the key to drawing B wrt post 69 this thread is incorrect. Based in my experience with Safale S-05 and Nottingham Yellow, the key should probably read "0.1" instead of gauge pressure X "10" bar.
I found both S-05 and Notti Yellow were very happy yeastie beasties at 5psig, but pretty lazy at 25 psig.
The definition of a bar is at this wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_(unit)
the difference between 15psi (absolute) and 15 psig (gauge) is explained at this wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Difference_between_gauge_and_absolute_pressure
What I found with both yeasts is they live at 25psig, but they don't work very hard. At 5 psig they work harder than they do under just an airlock. At 15psig they are bad dudes who get a lot of work done in a hurry.
My third spunded batch is running now. I pitched Chico (White WLP001) and spunded, with the spunding valve set at 15psig. Looking at picture B as referenced, 15psig fits with gauge pressure expressed as x0.1 bar but doesn't make sense at gauge pressure x10bar.
YMMV with other strains, maybe a little.
Basically, pitch your yeast, spund, and let the yeast run up the pressure inside the fermenter to the spunding set point. Once you are closing in on FG, put the fermenter in the cooler and move the spund set point pressure north. A the beer cools, the pressure will drop and the yeast will clean up the diacetyl. Once the beer is cold (hopefully) the yeast will finish the ferment, running the beer up to carb pressure as they finish, and (hopefully) the amount of generated diacetyl will be below the taste threshold.
Poindexter
Well-Known Member
karbinator said:
I am doing this with plain stock un-modified Corny's. I take enough gravity samples that I don't feel the need to cut any spears.
If the beer is really really good and I have a hunch that Jessica Simpson is just going to knock on my door in a greasy T-shirt needing help changing a tire, I'll tap the fermenting keg and run it to clear, and then hook up a transfer line so only clear beer goes to the serving keg. Doesn't happen very often.
OP
OP
Poindexter said:
I don't agree with this at all. You should do the entire fermentation at fermentation temperature at whatever pressure you are wanting to (5-15 fermenting and then upwards of 30psi for carbonation). Then a few gravity points from completion you simply let the keg build up as much pressure as it wants (Sankes will hold 60 psi Cornys will hold 130 psi so you don't have to worry about blowing one up because you shouldn't get much over 30 psi) and this is where you are getting your carbonation from. After fermentation is completed, (I wait 1 week total from pitch) then turn down the temperature or move your brew to a lower temperature place where you can crash cool to clarify your beer and lower the pressure. Pressure decreases with temperature so this is where you dial in the carbonation level wanted and let it rest cold (like 33-35*F) and crash the yeast to the bottom of the fermenter for 1 week. Then transfer under counter pressure to your serving keg and VIOLA!!!! The diacetyl is taken back in by the yeast the couple of days after fermentation has ceased but is still at fermentation temperature. Fermentation is usually over in 3-4 days so you have 3-4 days after that to clean up the diacetyl. The pressure doesn't matter for diacetyl removal only the yeast, and the yeast are still working at 30 psi just not as fast. They are also not working on producing alcohol as they are to removing the diacetyl and will continue to work once the beer goes through crash cooling. Diacetyl rests are usually done a little warmer than fermentation temperature, but then again this is not your normal way to brew, so it is different. I have not had a single problem with any batches with the exception of the very first one and that was my fault for using a bad recipe and other brewing mishaps during the mash.
OP
OP
Ok, thought I would document my last batch since it is already done fermenting and is carbonated waiting to be crash cooled and transfered.
So, this last Thursday I decided it was about time to try out my newly updated brewery and then write-up the fermentation technique the way I did it this time. After chilling the crystal clear wort to 60*F by recirculating the kettle through a Therminator CFC and then back into the hopsack inside the kettle, I transfered the pitched wort into my sealed and purged keg fermenter. I did this by hooking my hose to my pump and then Sanke tap leaving the gas-side open for air to escape as the wort came in. Then I rig up my spunding valve and set it to 5 psi. I set my lagerator to 65*F and figured the next day I would be there from 60*F. Only got up to 62*F and the whole freezer was full of CO2 so bad it hurt your nose. Wow, fermentation really took off with a stir plate starter (my first time) and so I agreed to take a sample the next day. The beer warmed up to 65*F that night and I left it for the morning. Saturday morning comes and I take my reading easily through the spigot on the tap, and low-and-behold I am down to 1.012 from my OG of 1.045 (after redoing my math and figuring out why I thought I had missed my numbers). That is 2 points from estimated FG. Time to untap and let her charge up full of carbonation to about 27.8 psi @65*F. Now, I just wait until the complete 7 days is up and drop the temperature down to 35*F for another week. After that it is transfer to serving and another week at room temperature before the kegerator.
So, this last Thursday I decided it was about time to try out my newly updated brewery and then write-up the fermentation technique the way I did it this time. After chilling the crystal clear wort to 60*F by recirculating the kettle through a Therminator CFC and then back into the hopsack inside the kettle, I transfered the pitched wort into my sealed and purged keg fermenter. I did this by hooking my hose to my pump and then Sanke tap leaving the gas-side open for air to escape as the wort came in. Then I rig up my spunding valve and set it to 5 psi. I set my lagerator to 65*F and figured the next day I would be there from 60*F. Only got up to 62*F and the whole freezer was full of CO2 so bad it hurt your nose. Wow, fermentation really took off with a stir plate starter (my first time) and so I agreed to take a sample the next day. The beer warmed up to 65*F that night and I left it for the morning. Saturday morning comes and I take my reading easily through the spigot on the tap, and low-and-behold I am down to 1.012 from my OG of 1.045 (after redoing my math and figuring out why I thought I had missed my numbers). That is 2 points from estimated FG. Time to untap and let her charge up full of carbonation to about 27.8 psi @65*F. Now, I just wait until the complete 7 days is up and drop the temperature down to 35*F for another week. After that it is transfer to serving and another week at room temperature before the kegerator.
Poindexter
Well-Known Member
WortMonger said:
I am taking a spunded batch to a car show in San Antonio this weekend. You and I know how amazing this is. I am going to set a video camera on top of the keg...
OP
OP
I don't know how to do videos very well or I would. The process is pretty easy though and the equipment is even easier to buy and build to allow for this technique.
By the way Poindexter, I finally got my cheapo adjustable relief valve to work accurately but I am still swapping it all to what I told you to buy. I can finally hold right on 5 psi now
. This cheapo brass one seems to work more accurate on higher psi. So, you are taking your keg of finished home brew to the car show huh, lol. Bet you are popular there. I am so loving this technique after researching it, and am glad I sparked enough interest to get you involved as well. Maybe more will start doing it and we can truly start to get some more information on a broader spectrum. I will be doing my lager trial next brew. I want to see how it tastes after just a week. I am thinking a lot of sulphur that early on, but I am also thinking the diacetyl will be non-existent at that weeks end. Maybe not, but I am giving my lager 2 week primary (checking gravity for the start of carbonation), one week of crash cooling, and finally transfer and store them somewhere tasting every now and then to see when they are ready. We will all see I guess when I brew it, not this Friday but the next. I think I will have this beer in a serving keg and my fermenter clean and ready for a lager. Can't wait, can't wait!!!!!!!!!
By the way Poindexter, I finally got my cheapo adjustable relief valve to work accurately but I am still swapping it all to what I told you to buy. I can finally hold right on 5 psi now
. This cheapo brass one seems to work more accurate on higher psi. So, you are taking your keg of finished home brew to the car show huh, lol. Bet you are popular there. I am so loving this technique after researching it, and am glad I sparked enough interest to get you involved as well. Maybe more will start doing it and we can truly start to get some more information on a broader spectrum. I will be doing my lager trial next brew. I want to see how it tastes after just a week. I am thinking a lot of sulphur that early on, but I am also thinking the diacetyl will be non-existent at that weeks end. Maybe not, but I am giving my lager 2 week primary (checking gravity for the start of carbonation), one week of crash cooling, and finally transfer and store them somewhere tasting every now and then to see when they are ready. We will all see I guess when I brew it, not this Friday but the next. I think I will have this beer in a serving keg and my fermenter clean and ready for a lager. Can't wait, can't wait!!!!!!!!!
OP
OP
Ok, beer is chilling down to my crash temperature of 35*F. Took a sample yesterday and wow, finished at 1.010 for now. I will take my true FG once I am ready to drink it. It is completely sediment free and only has a cloud of yeast to be dropped out. So far, very tasty and no diacetyl to speak of. I think I am going to love Warrior as a bittering hop for my APA's. It is only a 33 IBU but very rounded going over the tongue. Can't wait till the yeast drop and I taste again. Now, I have a couple of potential future investors curious as to my product and skills so I am hoping I can get them on board for a brewery. This little college town needs one badly, along with cheap but good pizza. I am plotting
WBC
Well-Known Member
Ok guys, I am trying this too and already have a keg cleaned up and find that very easy to do. I found that the OEM oring is really squashed and has taken a set and wonder if it will seal properly (need a new one). I plan on a 12 gallon batch of pale lager and was thinking of making a yeast starter to krausen the beer after the primary and 1 week of conditioning at 65 F. Then lager it for 6 weeks. Then I am going to add enough wort to bring up the gravity 3 points. This is supposed to do away with diacetyl acording to what I have read. Then I would let that work to bring up pressure at the end of the krausening. Any comments?
Krausining beer: http://www.picobrewery.com/askarchive/krausen.htm
Krausining beer: http://www.picobrewery.com/askarchive/krausen.htm
Kaiser
Well-Known Member
WBC,
I add the kraeusen after primary. This is when I rack the beer to a keg. Then I wait for the pressure to build up. It goes faster at higher temperatures (60+F) but can also be done at primary fermentation temp (50F). I do cold crash it to lagering once the beer is close enough to it's final gravity.
The traditional method would slowly lower the temp to lagering after you added the Kraeusen. I tried this many times, but the fermentation always slowed down to much and I was left with to much residual sugar at the end. That's why I now wait until only enough sugar is left that I know will be consumed during lagering.
You don't have to measure precisely when kegging if you can bleed off pressure in a controlled manner. For bottling I have a spreadsheet to calculate the amount needed. I'll have to post this once I'm at home.
Kai
I add the kraeusen after primary. This is when I rack the beer to a keg. Then I wait for the pressure to build up. It goes faster at higher temperatures (60+F) but can also be done at primary fermentation temp (50F). I do cold crash it to lagering once the beer is close enough to it's final gravity.
The traditional method would slowly lower the temp to lagering after you added the Kraeusen. I tried this many times, but the fermentation always slowed down to much and I was left with to much residual sugar at the end. That's why I now wait until only enough sugar is left that I know will be consumed during lagering.
You don't have to measure precisely when kegging if you can bleed off pressure in a controlled manner. For bottling I have a spreadsheet to calculate the amount needed. I'll have to post this once I'm at home.
Kai
OP
OP
I would love to see that spreadsheet. I am too lazy to do the math when messing with a recipe, and so rely on beersmith. They don't have this function yet. They only show dried malt extract and corn sugar addition for carbonation. Guess I should pull out the ol' Brewing Lager Beer book and thumb through kraeusening again. I would really like to kraeusen my lagers. It would be too easy on my system. I could just fill a small keg with my kraeusen wort and pitch in some fermenting beer to get her going. Then, transfer the kraeusen in when it is ready and the initial fermentation is done or close. I would still not let the beer see air until the glass and I could get the natural assured cleanup of the kraeusen on my primary ferment. This would allow me to not worry about setting anything. I could have a 5 psi constant pressure release on my primary and do as I just said, leaving my carbonation phase in the dust (except for my ales, cause I like the way they are tasting). It would be too easy to just add the kraeusen and set the relief for equivalent psi at that temperature for carbonation and be done. Crash, and then transfer once ready to a lagering keg.
You know it is kinda weird. When I am thinking about ales, anything that adds even an hours more time makes me irritated. However, when I think of lager, the time scale is so extended that something that takes 3 extra hours of work doesn't even bother my way of thinking. I want my lagers to have zero chance of not being the absolute best. I have purposely waited this long to ever brew one so I wouldn't get down and stick with ales. Now I have the tools necessary (chiller capable, lagerator, plenty of kegs so I don't sacrifice my ale brewing ability) and can get the job done right with lots of people to talk me through it. I am trying to inspire some investors in venturing into a brewery with me. I want a truly great product that turns heads and may even win prizes when it comes to a delicate lager. I have made two lagers in my whole life, and that was at the brewery where I basically watched the creator's dream of their GABF medals. We did a Dunkel and a Schwarzbier and they had done a German Pilsner before I started there. The Dunkel was my favorite, but still blown away by this LHBS guy that did a 5 gallon double decoction Dunkel with the same recipe. Wow, big difference from our single infusion 15 bbl batch. That's where I want to be right there.
You know it is kinda weird. When I am thinking about ales, anything that adds even an hours more time makes me irritated. However, when I think of lager, the time scale is so extended that something that takes 3 extra hours of work doesn't even bother my way of thinking. I want my lagers to have zero chance of not being the absolute best. I have purposely waited this long to ever brew one so I wouldn't get down and stick with ales. Now I have the tools necessary (chiller capable, lagerator, plenty of kegs so I don't sacrifice my ale brewing ability) and can get the job done right with lots of people to talk me through it. I am trying to inspire some investors in venturing into a brewery with me. I want a truly great product that turns heads and may even win prizes when it comes to a delicate lager. I have made two lagers in my whole life, and that was at the brewery where I basically watched the creator's dream of their GABF medals. We did a Dunkel and a Schwarzbier and they had done a German Pilsner before I started there. The Dunkel was my favorite, but still blown away by this LHBS guy that did a 5 gallon double decoction Dunkel with the same recipe. Wow, big difference from our single infusion 15 bbl batch. That's where I want to be right there.
Kaiser
Well-Known Member
You won't find that there. As for Beersmith, I don't think that they would add this anytime soon. I wish they would, but I don't think they want to bother with this.
For my lagers, I don't worry about the precise amount of Kraeusen. There is always more extract left and I will end up bleeding of pressure. I just dump the Kaeusen into the keg when racking. The beauty of this is that the yeast will cosume all the O2 that I may have intoduced while racking. It would be to much work for me to clean and sanitize another keg for this
Most brewers in Germany scoff at the idea of pressure fermentation as it is seen and was developed as a means to speed up the beer production process. With pressure fermentation I mean the primary fermentation under pressure. I recently came across a summary of allowed brewing procedures for a "organic" beer. I put organic into quotes b/c the premis is not so much on organic ingredients as to more of a back-to-the-roots for the brewing process. The guidelines disallow lots of the practices that are legal under the Reinheitsgebot, but condisered short cuts that the brewing industry is taking. Among these practices are warm fermentation ( > 54 F), pressure fermentation, warm maturation (warm diacetyl rest) and other accelerated maturation practices.
But a head pressure if 5 psi during primary fermentation in a Sanke Keg is basically the avarage hydrostatic pressure in a 10 ft conical fermeter and may not really be considered pressure fermentation.
When it comes to making the very best beer, it easily becomes subjective. I don't think that there is one best beer for each style it's all a matter of preference. Some will consider a Pilsner that is slighly darker and a little more rich in esters a superb beer while others may consider them flaws. Just some food for thought.
Kai
WBC
Well-Known Member
Kai,
Refering to your post #96.
Let's say I have a Pale Lager OG 1.050 and now at 1.024 in the primary at 53F. Are you saying that I should transfer to a keg and krausen at this time or wait later until about 1.015 to krausen?
It was my understanding from what I read here that conditioning was finished as well as lagering to raise the existing gravity with a beer that was at high krausen in sufficient quantity to raise the gravity to 3 to 4 points higher in the finished beer. Then you let that work at a higher temperature to carbonate the beer and being that you are adding extremely active yeast it would work on the new beer added with ease.
I have a spunding valve I made up from parts at Grainger.com I can regulate any pressure up to 30 PSI and understand that you never want to go higher than 10 -15 PSI so that you will not rupture yeast walls. Please comment.
Refering to your post #96.
Let's say I have a Pale Lager OG 1.050 and now at 1.024 in the primary at 53F. Are you saying that I should transfer to a keg and krausen at this time or wait later until about 1.015 to krausen?
It was my understanding from what I read here that conditioning was finished as well as lagering to raise the existing gravity with a beer that was at high krausen in sufficient quantity to raise the gravity to 3 to 4 points higher in the finished beer. Then you let that work at a higher temperature to carbonate the beer and being that you are adding extremely active yeast it would work on the new beer added with ease.
I have a spunding valve I made up from parts at Grainger.com I can regulate any pressure up to 30 PSI and understand that you never want to go higher than 10 -15 PSI so that you will not rupture yeast walls. Please comment.
OP
OP
Yeah, I have asked for the kraeusening stuff in their forum and hope they put it in, but I am just glad they are updating at all.Kaiser said:
I am basically wanting to use the difference left in my fermenter as kraeusen wort, that way I end up with a full 15 gallons after a 12 gallon ferment.Kaiser said:
I understand the yeast will absorb any O2 present during the transfer, but I like the way I can just tap a keg and transfer one to the other. Also, cleaning and sanitizing a keg isn't that hard for me. Right now I have (5) 1/6 bbls waiting to be filled that were cleaned a while back. I was thinking I could just sanitize and fill with 3 gallons of fresh wort. Then, add a gallon of fermenting beer from my primary and get that going. Finally, adding that all back to my primary after it got started and spunding to my carb level. Would this work Kaiser? I use a scale to measure input into a keg so my measurements are +/- a little bit. I am really just increasing my end batch size and getting the added benefits of adding the kraeusen as a side note. I figure why not brew as much lager as I can store, right? LOL. I am so glad you are here to chime in Kaiser, I learn a lot.
As far as your last response, I am not interested in speeding things up, having higher temperature ferments, or anything remotely like that. I am just happy at the way this works for me. I wondered if the hydrostatic pressure was the same or close, because they always talked about our fermenters being perfect for the sized batches we did and I knew a little about the pressure thing. I just stumbled upon the pressure fermentation yeast growth information and after experimenting, I really liked the system. I am trying to balance everything and make things easier on me if they can be, so that is why I am pressure fermenting (even if 5 psi isn't considered pressure fermenting). I will still use my same method now used on my ales, I just wanted to go further with my lagers. As for making the very best beer, I am a pretty tough critic
. I really just mean a good product tasted and accepted by the people I intend to sale the idea to. I may be over-thinking things, but give me a couple of lagers under my belt and maybe I will slow down a little, lol. In retrospect, maybe I will just dump all the pressure out of the primary and add the kraeusen right into the beer-out port on my Sanke tap.
Kaiser
Well-Known Member
Looks like I cannot attach anything to posts anymore. Might be due to my expired subscription.
I'll have to update the Kraeusen article anyway and will be posting the spreadsheet with that. The spreadsheet needs lots of explaining anyway.
Kai
I'll have to update the Kraeusen article anyway and will be posting the spreadsheet with that. The spreadsheet needs lots of explaining anyway.
Kai
WBC
Well-Known Member
Kaiser said:
Kai,
Rather than lowering right away I would think that you should give the yeast a chance to get used to their new environment and work on the sugars you added and when the pressure is up there (2 to 4 days @ 15 PSI) lower 2-4 F a day until lager temperature is reached. Is this something you tried already?
Kaiser
Well-Known Member
WBC said:
I tried this. But it is really difficult to keep the yeast working well enough. At least the WY2206 that I'm currently using.
Kai
WBC
Well-Known Member
Kaiser said:
What temperature?
Kaiser
Well-Known Member
WBC said:
somewhere between 32 and 36 *C. With the current method, where I come close to the FG before lagering, I noticed that I get expect about 0.05 - 0.1 *P extract reduction per month at 34 *C. But for the classic method you want the yeast to do much more than that.
Kai
WBC
Well-Known Member
I think the yeast strain is really important and so maybe we need to find a strain that works well when krausening is employed. I know some commercial brewers near me and so I will consult them about krausening. They may have done it and maybe not.
Kaiser
Well-Known Member
I recently found that low flocculating yeast strains work well for the classic way of cold fermentation. The only low flocculator I know if is the Danish lager yeast that is sold by WYeast. I still have to get my hands onto that.
Kai
Kai
OP
OP
Well guys, today is the transfer day. I am sanitizing three 1/6 bbl Sankes right now in Star-San and have my bathroom floor scale ready to weigh these bad boys out. Only thing I did wrong at this point was not controlling the pressure the whole way through. I got to much carbonation during the last part of fermentation when the pressure needed to be above my control ability. I am ordering the same parts I told Poindexter about and then I should not have this problem arise again. Dang cheap-o back pressure relief valve and rusty pressure gauge. They need to be retired.
Everything else looks, smells, and tastes great so far. I am so happy with this process and equipment. Next batch is a practice run triple decoction pitched on a post washed cake. I am planning on pressure canner no-stir type of decoction and I thought it would be nice to brew the same batch back to back to really see the comparison first hand. I know it is an ale, but I want to get this down for my future bigger lagers. I will probably only use a single or double for any other decocted beers, but this over emphasizes the difference between these two ales right now for me. Ok, and it is going to be a ton of fun and take all day. After watching Kaiser's video, my brain went haywire and I just had to max my system out, lol. Well, I am off to transfer beer now. Just two more weeks till I am drinking this fine mama-jama.
Everything else looks, smells, and tastes great so far. I am so happy with this process and equipment. Next batch is a practice run triple decoction pitched on a post washed cake. I am planning on pressure canner no-stir type of decoction and I thought it would be nice to brew the same batch back to back to really see the comparison first hand. I know it is an ale, but I want to get this down for my future bigger lagers. I will probably only use a single or double for any other decocted beers, but this over emphasizes the difference between these two ales right now for me. Ok, and it is going to be a ton of fun and take all day. After watching Kaiser's video, my brain went haywire and I just had to max my system out, lol. Well, I am off to transfer beer now. Just two more weeks till I am drinking this fine mama-jama.
Kaiser
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if I mentioned that, but when harvesting yeas from a pressurized fermenter, you should de-pressurize the yeast slowly. Otherwise many of them will simply explode b/c the CO2 comes out of solution inside the cells.
BTW, I should soon be able to release the article about priming with Kraeusen.
Kai
BTW, I should soon be able to release the article about priming with Kraeusen.
Kai
OP
OP
Well, I guess this will be an experiment then. I dumped all the pressure out of my fermenter after transferring.
I am happy to announce that I got more than 12 gallons end batch BIG SMILE!!!!! It is going to be a pretty beer and it has cleaned up taste-wise as of yesterday, so I am pretty stoked to try it after a week warm. I don't know who it was that talked about that but I have done it and liked the beers better. They are drinkable 3 weeks grain to glass, but that extra week at room temperature before the kegerator just does something to my ale. I suppose with my lager I will just let the fermenter warm a little bit and then crash cool and transfer for lagering.
I dumped all the pressure out of my fermenter after transferring.I am happy to announce that I got more than 12 gallons end batch
BIG SMILE!!!!! It is going to be a pretty beer and it has cleaned up taste-wise as of yesterday, so I am pretty stoked to try it after a week warm. I don't know who it was that talked about that but I have done it and liked the beers better. They are drinkable 3 weeks grain to glass, but that extra week at room temperature before the kegerator just does something to my ale. I suppose with my lager I will just let the fermenter warm a little bit and then crash cool and transfer for lagering.
OP
OP
Ok, brewed this next one and it was a long day. The yeast I am glad to say are going fine today though despite my depressurizing their little home.
Ok, for some unknown reason to me all my temperatures were way off. I think my Ranco is about 3 degrees hotter than my floating thermometer, but even so I couldn't get any of my wanted temperatures right out of the HLT. I know my specific heat isn't right on my mash tun, but I do not know how to put those numbers in beersmith. I have always been a single infusion guy before, but started step infusing and wasn't too bad off until this fiasco.
Brew day started as normal, only I decided to go with a one smaller grind setting from the factory recommended Crankandstein mill setting. This was the reason my last batch wasn't very efficient, and for some reason I had moved the mill one setting coarser before that batch (chalk it up to brewing Gremlins I guess). So, now two settings lower my grist was a little more floury than I would have liked it, but it wasn't just screaming "Hey I'm gonna stick this Mother-F'er," like it should have been.
Lesson learned, grist mill set to recommended level now.
Ok, so now comes the dough-in. I forget to fill the bottom part of my tun with strike water before dumping in my grain. I get it all in and then realize I am going to have to stir like crazy to break up the balls that are coming....... and I did. Lots of fun so far, but the best is coming. I want my first rest at 133*F for 30 minutes. After I have pulled my first decoction fraction of the Beersmith's recommended 1.25 gallons and slowly raised the temperature to 160 over 20 minutes, I slapped on my pressure canner lid and cranked it up to 15 psi for 10 minutes. I have a copper bowl that fits into my pressure canner and acts like a double boiler. The smell....... breath-taking, the color...much darker than before with clear wort on the top coming through the grains. I figure I will add the whole lot since my 133*F rest turned into a 122*F rest.
I add the decoction back and the raise was only to 138*F for my next rest. Now since I was trying to do a beta-amylase rest at 147*F and I also wanted to up my liquor to grain ratio, I had water ready at 147*F to make me at 2 qt/#. I added the water and got to 142*F. I was "close enough" after not hitting my first temperature, so I went with it and pulled my second decoction.
I slowly raised the decoction same as before for about 20 minutes then boiled at 15 psi again. Returning the decoction after the rest, I was expecting to miss my temperature again... and I did. I really wanted to get to 158*F for my alpha-amylase rest and hit 154*F, so I again went with it extending it to a full hour.
Now the bowls I have for my pressure canner only go up to 1.25 gallons, so for my last mash-out decoction I chose to do what I have done before and take a "liquid only" fraction. I heated the whole mash runnings to 185*F in my boil kettle and returned most of it for a 168*F rest for 10 minutes. Rested and drained the whole thing back into my kettle for FWH and to start heating while the batch sparge went on.
Here's where the sparge put on the breaks. I add all my sparge water and stir. I slowly open my valve to start vorlauf and nothing. It was temper-mental during the mash-out decoction recirculation, but it got going after a few squeezes on the tubing when it did start to get clogged. Not so on this sparge. I had to blow through the drain tubing to get the crap out of the quick disconnect on my ball valve. Finally I get it going and into the kettle, after 30 minutes of trying and turning the kettle off so I didn't start boiling off all my first wort.
Boil went great. Hop additions were changed at the last minute due to dinner plans changing, so I added my 10 minute steep hops to 10 minute boil hops. This is actually better for this APA as the last batch is already losing some of it's "Bitter" to the maturation process. I like the last batch, but I think I should have more than 33 IBU's for an APA even if it is still in style.
So, looking back I will probably not do this for anything ever again. I will get my system in order and will probably only do a single step decoction for anything that may be better like a Bock or something heavier. I would like to do an experiment and see if grain scorches inside a pressure canner without anything separating it from the canner bottom. While writing this I kept messing with Beersmith to skew my numbers on my specific heat on my mash tun, and I think I finally have it. Lets hope for this next batch, lol.
Ok, for some unknown reason to me all my temperatures were way off. I think my Ranco is about 3 degrees hotter than my floating thermometer, but even so I couldn't get any of my wanted temperatures right out of the HLT. I know my specific heat isn't right on my mash tun, but I do not know how to put those numbers in beersmith. I have always been a single infusion guy before, but started step infusing and wasn't too bad off until this fiasco.
Brew day started as normal, only I decided to go with a one smaller grind setting from the factory recommended Crankandstein mill setting. This was the reason my last batch wasn't very efficient, and for some reason I had moved the mill one setting coarser before that batch (chalk it up to brewing Gremlins I guess). So, now two settings lower my grist was a little more floury than I would have liked it, but it wasn't just screaming "Hey I'm gonna stick this Mother-F'er," like it should have been.
Lesson learned, grist mill set to recommended level now.
Ok, so now comes the dough-in. I forget to fill the bottom part of my tun with strike water before dumping in my grain. I get it all in and then realize I am going to have to stir like crazy to break up the balls that are coming....... and I did. Lots of fun so far, but the best is coming. I want my first rest at 133*F for 30 minutes. After I have pulled my first decoction fraction of the Beersmith's recommended 1.25 gallons and slowly raised the temperature to 160 over 20 minutes, I slapped on my pressure canner lid and cranked it up to 15 psi for 10 minutes. I have a copper bowl that fits into my pressure canner and acts like a double boiler. The smell....... breath-taking, the color...much darker than before with clear wort on the top coming through the grains. I figure I will add the whole lot since my 133*F rest turned into a 122*F rest
.I add the decoction back and the raise was only to 138*F for my next rest. Now since I was trying to do a beta-amylase rest at 147*F and I also wanted to up my liquor to grain ratio, I had water ready at 147*F to make me at 2 qt/#. I added the water and got to 142*F. I was "close enough" after not hitting my first temperature, so I went with it and pulled my second decoction.
I slowly raised the decoction same as before for about 20 minutes then boiled at 15 psi again. Returning the decoction after the rest, I was expecting to miss my temperature again... and I did
. I really wanted to get to 158*F for my alpha-amylase rest and hit 154*F, so I again went with it extending it to a full hour.Now the bowls I have for my pressure canner only go up to 1.25 gallons, so for my last mash-out decoction I chose to do what I have done before and take a "liquid only" fraction. I heated the whole mash runnings to 185*F in my boil kettle and returned most of it for a 168*F rest for 10 minutes. Rested and drained the whole thing back into my kettle for FWH and to start heating while the batch sparge went on.
Here's where the sparge put on the breaks. I add all my sparge water and stir. I slowly open my valve to start vorlauf and nothing. It was temper-mental during the mash-out decoction recirculation, but it got going after a few squeezes on the tubing when it did start to get clogged. Not so on this sparge. I had to blow through the drain tubing to get the crap out of the quick disconnect on my ball valve. Finally I get it going and into the kettle, after 30 minutes of trying and turning the kettle off so I didn't start boiling off all my first wort.
Boil went great. Hop additions were changed at the last minute due to dinner plans changing, so I added my 10 minute steep hops to 10 minute boil hops. This is actually better for this APA as the last batch is already losing some of it's "Bitter" to the maturation process. I like the last batch, but I think I should have more than 33 IBU's for an APA even if it is still in style.
So, looking back I will probably not do this for anything ever again. I will get my system in order and will probably only do a single step decoction for anything that may be better like a Bock or something heavier. I would like to do an experiment and see if grain scorches inside a pressure canner without anything separating it from the canner bottom. While writing this I kept messing with Beersmith to skew my numbers on my specific heat on my mash tun, and I think I finally have it. Lets hope for this next batch, lol.
WBC
Well-Known Member
Did you see this video on decoction mashing? You only return enough decocted wort and grain to raise to the next temperature level. That way you always hit your rests exactly on temp.
OP
OP
Well, I added all of my decoction and didn't reach my temperature so I don't know why you are telling me I should only return enough to raise to the next temperature level, lol. I did watch the video. I don't think Beersmith has a good decoction calculator as I thought I wouldn't have enough to raise the temperature before I started but went with it anyways. I know the next time to grab a little more than my calculations say for that way I can only add what I need for the steps.
Kaiser
Well-Known Member
WortMonger said:
That's key to being able to deal with unforseen temp drops in the main mash.
Sorry to hear that you had a bad brew day. I had those to. They only made me try it again. Not the next brew but soon after.
Kai
WBC
Well-Known Member
Ok, I did not say anything about pulling enough mash to decoct but i'm sure you found that out. It takes practice to get good at anything that is complicated so don't feel bad and do try it again. Once you master it you will feel really good about it. I have done it about 9 times in 36 years and so I need practice too as my equipment has changed. I will be doing decoctions more now as I am into German beers. With the hop situation being the way it is we need to conserve hops.
OP
OP
Yeah, I hope you knew I took it in jest. I am amazed, clearest wort ever, and I got unforeseen gravity out of it. According to the first sample I took after boil, it was 16.2 Brix (or 1.068). I don't think so, so I headed out for dinner and checked some that wasn't pitched the following morning and it read 14.9 Brix (or 1.062). Wow, I skewed some other numbers on my efficiency and came up with approximately 1.058 OG. I did well by doing my decoction and increasing my efficiency so much from 1.047 last time. I think the finer grind also contributed to both PITA and higher efficiency. I will be going with factory recommended like I used to do next time . I will start earlier than mashing at 1:00 PM next time as well. I am primed for my double decoction lagers I have planned, but never a triple unless style absolutely dictates.
. I will start earlier than mashing at 1:00 PM next time as well. I am primed for my double decoction lagers I have planned, but never a triple unless style absolutely dictates.
Kaiser
Well-Known Member
Kaiser said:
I finished the Kraeusening article and an article that explains how to calculate carbonation for various priming methods. In particular Kraeusen and residual extract:
Kraeusening
Priming
Kai
WBC
Well-Known Member
Kai, You are really in to this beer math I see. That is really useful information for those who are willing to read and understand it. I know you make great beers and I wish we could send some through the internet (teleportation). My beers are all good and I am always experimenting. I am building a cold room as I need the space for lagers. Aging beer long enough is a key factor once the brewing process is mastered. So many of us have consumed our beer too young. I am trying to Krausen my lagers and have been investigating the internet for all I can find on this subject so thanks for the great articles.
OP
OP
I have been fermenting now for a full 2 days and decided to take a sample since my efficiency was so much higher this time than last. I can only estimate my OG because I am a dumba$$ and put all of my wort in the fermenter before thinking about a dang sample. I read my OG from a sample taken from leftover pump wort with my refractometer. I figured the sample from the following evening was because of the light conditions and wort particles present in the sample, and so took the OG reading the next day. I do not recommend this to anyone reading, always use a hydrometer for OG and FG. Refractometers are great for fast pre-fermentation gravity, but accuracy does suffer with alcohol present and a hydrometer reading for OG is a great thing to have.
So after tweaking some more numbers on Beersmith to get it set right, I came up with an OG of around 1.054. Today, my hydrometer tells me I am at 1.022 GU and my refractometer tells me around 8.5 Brix. With my readings set aside for further scrutiny later on, I decided to drink my sample for tasting like we all do and I am amazed. This tastes like a completely different beer at this stage than the other one did just 2 weeks ago at the same point. While you still can't get the bitterness due to all the sugar still present and yeast, the malt flavor is wonderful. It is like everything is one. The recirculation that I did last time while cooling didn't occur this time. I decided to go directly to the fermenter from my Therminator and I honestly think the aroma hops are more prevalent this time than last. I steeped them last time 10 minutes and then recirculated before transferring. This time they went in 10 minutes from the end of the boil and got chilled instantly after boil. Hopefully, I am only 10 points from finish. I guess we will see what the gravity is like tomorrow to determine when I need to untap and pressure up the keg for carbonation. I want my new adjustable back-pressure relief valve now!!!!!
Oh, and I decided to up the pressure fermentation to 12 psi this time from the 5 psi last time. This gives me greater than normal hydrostatic pressure to give you guys reading more information on the subject of this thread. I am still loving this way of brewing and will keep telling you guys everything of my adventures.
So after tweaking some more numbers on Beersmith to get it set right, I came up with an OG of around 1.054. Today, my hydrometer tells me I am at 1.022 GU and my refractometer tells me around 8.5 Brix. With my readings set aside for further scrutiny later on, I decided to drink my sample for tasting like we all do
and I am amazed. This tastes like a completely different beer at this stage than the other one did just 2 weeks ago at the same point. While you still can't get the bitterness due to all the sugar still present and yeast, the malt flavor is wonderful. It is like everything is one. The recirculation that I did last time while cooling didn't occur this time. I decided to go directly to the fermenter from my Therminator and I honestly think the aroma hops are more prevalent this time than last. I steeped them last time 10 minutes and then recirculated before transferring. This time they went in 10 minutes from the end of the boil and got chilled instantly after boil. Hopefully, I am only 10 points from finish. I guess we will see what the gravity is like tomorrow to determine when I need to untap and pressure up the keg for carbonation. I want my new adjustable back-pressure relief valve now!!!!!Oh, and I decided to up the pressure fermentation to 12 psi this time from the 5 psi last time. This gives me greater than normal hydrostatic pressure to give you guys reading more information on the subject of this thread. I am still loving this way of brewing and will keep telling you guys everything of my adventures.
OP
OP
Well, I went to go check my pressure and figured I would have to bleed down to my desired level of 12 psi @ 32*F. Nope, right on the money. Finally, things seem to be automatic. Well, just a little while longer at 32*F and then it gets transfered into the serving kegs for a week long room temperature rest. I can't wait to taste this one, even if it isn't old enough.
My other batch is rolling out this week on Thursday for its debut and I can't wait to hear the comments from friends and family. Hopefully I will still have some of it on tap to compare with this triple decocted batch. I am saving a keg in reserve so no worries, lol.
.My other batch is rolling out this week on Thursday for its debut and I can't wait to hear the comments from friends and family. Hopefully I will still have some of it on tap to compare with this triple decocted batch. I am saving a keg in reserve so no worries, lol
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