Phase Angle Controller

Has anyone built one of these? I have a PWM on the boil kettle and am looking to try something new for giggles.
I found this unit online. http://www.nuwaveproducts.com/ssrman-1p.htm

I was thinking of wiring that into a box with a random SSR and see how that compares to the PWM that I have.
If no one has done it no big deal, but was wondering if anyone had any experience?

Interesting find! Please post the results of any testing you do!!!

I know very little about phase angle, and what knowledge I do have revolves solely around amplifiers for audio. In that sense, it's important to know phase angles so you know if your voltage rails can handle the pos/neg swings. With SSR's that operate either on or off, I don't see how adjusting the phase angle will help anything since on/off is associated with square waves.

what kind of control are you looking to get out of this?

Just boil control, I think it will work better than a PWM, because I use my controller for temp control in other "heating applications."

looneybomber said:

I know very little about phase angle, and what knowledge I do have revolves solely around amplifiers for audio. In that sense, it's important to know phase angles so you know if your voltage rails can handle the pos/neg swings. With SSR's that operate either on or off, I don't see how adjusting the phase angle will help anything since on/off is associated with square waves.

Click to expand...

My understanding is if you use a random SSR that won't wait for the zero cutoff, you can smooth out the frequency of the off and on. It may not make much difference for just boil control, but its pretty inexpensive and offers more control for about the same money. (More like a stove control.)

Oh it looks like I need to read up on SSRs instead. When you said random SSR, I imagined you reaching into a grab bag and working with what you pulled out.

All you need is one of these http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=ssr+40+va&_sacat=0&_odkw=ss+va+r&_osacat=0

And a potentiometer. It is NOT a typical ssr, it's a modular phase angle control unit. All you need to do is hook the potentiometer across the control outputs, and the ac hot through the other two outputs, and voila, you have a variable control.

Lots more information here. http://www.artisan-distiller.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=6079
And here. http://www.artisan-distiller.net/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=62

Thanks Swede! This looks easier and cheaper than the PWM while allowing even better control.

The only shortfall is if you want to control multiple elements or have individual element control. These are well suited to a single element, but once you start running say two 4500's in a BK, then you would need to get a little creative with your wiring.

For my larger control panels, I use PWM because it can easily be manipulated for multiple element control, and each element is individually controllable. Check out my sig to see what I'm talking about.

This isn't exactly altering phase angle, it's merely a device that allows you to tune control frequency inline with your source frequency. With a basic PID controller, it's PWM output is coming out as a square wave signal and most likely at a different frequency and phase than normal AC power. So it's trimming chunks out of the AC wave and unpredictable intervals resulting in non-linearities over the control range. By matching frequency and phase to the AC source, you can be confident that your are achieving truly linear control over the power getting to your elements.

like they have in their picture

The question is though, are the non-linearities that are coming from using a PWM as your control for the SSR large enough to cause any control issues or shorten the life of your elements. My thought would be that no they aren't. This type of thing is probably more useful for situations where the application is much more sensitive to things on greater than the 60Hz timescale. Where as the heating elements we have are not going to be noticeably thrown off in their output by anything less than 1Hz

tldr: you probably won't see a difference.

Thanks for the input Blauhung. I will probably build it anyway, it seems like a pretty cheap and easy project, and if people want a semi auto electric method on the cheap for an HLT or boil it will work quite well.
I even located this and am wondering if that would be good for those thinking of going electric. Its pretty much a dial control for running an element.
http://www.stilldragon.com/basic-controller.html

onthekeg said:

Thanks for the input Blauhung. I will probably build it anyway, it seems like a pretty cheap and easy project, and if people want a semi auto electric method on the cheap for an HLT or boil it will work quite well.
I even located this and am wondering if that would be good for those thinking of going electric. Its pretty much a dial control for running an element.
http://www.stilldragon.com/basic-controller.html

Click to expand...

I know the guy that builds those, and he's a decent fella. For a basic variable control that's pre built I'd recommend him, it's good for a single element control. If you want to step up to more advanced controls that will manage higher level control of the brewing process, you can look into Kal's system, EBC based systems, or this style of controller.

I am not afraid to say that my inspiration came from here, and many thanks to all your members. The application of just such a concept is up to the user, but like I said earlier, phase angle for single element is the easiest and quite cheap if you use the component I refered to in my earlier post. It is well suited to simple analogue controls, but do not lend themselves to blended semi-automated controls like the PID versions that are frequently referred to here.

For a one dial BK control, the one you linked to is top notch, I can't think of a better design and as a matter of fact I linked to it in one of my previous posts. For a comprehensive controller, PWM is the easiest to implement.

I'm glad to see that HBT is getting more exposure to the other styles of control that might benefit it's members.

Cheer men.

Swede

Thanks for the update Swede. My endeavors scale many bounds, but when I see something that could benefit my friends of another hobby I try to help.

This controller will do everything you want to do for less than 130 dollars. Who else has something built and pretty much plug and play for that money? PID is nice, its not necessary. I don't type 110 on my stereo for raising the volume, I do it to where I want it. Your boil is the same animal.
I don't even know these guys, but they know what they are talking about.