Heating element questions

I am considering switching from my propane turkey fryer to an electric system. I use a 10 gallone igloo cooler MLT and an 11.5 gallone keggle for a BK. I brew 5 - 7 gallone batches. I have a few questions:

What size / strength / material heating element would work best for a 5 - 7 gallon batch system? Do I need two elements to get a proper boil going? Any specific (make / model) recomendations would be greatly appreciated.

I have a 110v 15amp outlet readily available that could be converted to gfi and upgraded to 20 amp (it's right next to the service panel). I would like to stay away from a 220v element unless there is no real alternative.

Thanks!

If you can't swing 220v, put as much wattage in as your line is rated to, unless you enjoy having your patience tested. I'd bite the bullet and get a 220v setup. Surely you have an oven range or a laundry dryer that has 220?

With a 20A 120v circuit you can only use a 2000W element, it'll work and even boil 7 gallons of water, but it will take a LONG time. When I brew outside I use a 2000W heatstick to supplement my propane burner.

I have two systems. One runs standard 240V into a 4500W element. One runs two 120V elements for a total of 4000W. Both ways are fine.

I would personally upgrade to 240 and get a spa panel, but if money is really an issue, then the pair of 120V elements works just fine.

jfkriege said:

I have two systems. One runs standard 240V into a 4500W element. One runs two 120V elements for a total of 4000W. Both ways are fine.

I would personally upgrade to 240 and get a spa panel, but if money is really an issue, then the pair of 120V elements works just fine.

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Which would require (2) 20 amp 120v circuits...

Thanks for the responses.

I am trying to shorten my brew time so testing my patience is not the direction I want to go! Is there a minimum wattage I should plan for? I see some 3500w elements for sale that say they will do 10 gallon batches. How long would that take to boil 7 gallons? Is there an advantage to two elements over one (say two 2000w vs. one 4000w)? Seems like two would be an extra hole to drill and weld.

The advantage to 2 2000W elements is that you likely have 2 separate 20Amp circuits available where with a 4000 watt element you would need an a larger circuit that is not likely readily available in your home.

Do not try to plug two 2000W 120V elements into the same circuit. Make you you know where your outlets go in your breaker box.

The issue is that Volts * amps = Watts.
Or: Amps = Watts divided by Volts.

So a 2000 watt 120 volt element will pull (2000/120) 16.66 Amps. (2) 2000 watt 120 volt elements will pull 33.33 Amps!

In other words, you can only run (1) 2Kw element on a 20 amp 120 volt circuit.

Some other quick calculations:
2000w @ 120v = 16.66a
3500w @240v = 14.58a
5500w @ 240v = 22.91a

It takes a LOT of current to run an electric heating element, and you must plan for that capacity. Or, at best, you'll blow breakers. At worst???

SweetSounds said:

Some other quick calculations:
2000w @ 120v = 16.66a
3500w @240v = 22a
5500w @ 240v = 22.91a

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???

wilserbrewer said:

???

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Fixed - Sorry

IrregularPulse said:

The advantage to 2 2000W elements is that you likely have 2 separate 20Amp circuits available where with a 4000 watt element you would need an a larger circuit that is not likely readily available in your home.

Do not try to plug two 2000W 120V elements into the same circuit. Make you you know where your outlets go in your breaker box.

Click to expand...

I use two 2000 watt heatsticks for both heating water in my HLT and the boil. Both are keggles.

It takes about 20 minutes or so to get a really big boil going (10 gallon batch, about 13 gallons in the boil keggle), starting at about 150*F (from the MLT). I leave one heatstick on the whole boil, and cycle the other off and on manually to keep the boil going.

Is there any way of calculating how fast each of these options would heat 7 gallons of water from 60* to 170* and from 170* to boil? I think this will tell me how bad I need a bigger element.

Too many variables to calculate accurately...I have brewed w/ a 2000w element and it is painfully slow, and likely won't make it on a cold or windy day, insulating the kettle would help w/ low wattage. 4000w as shown above will heat your strike, sparge, and boil in very "reasonable times".

There is a spreadsheet that will do the calculations, but I don't have the link to it.

1 watt = 1 joule/second. 1 calorie = 1 gram of water changing temperature by 1deg C. 1 gram of water is 1 cubic centimeter. There are 3785.41178 cubic centimeters per gallon, and deg F = 9/5 * deg C + 32. 1 calorie is 4.184 joule

Now, 60 deg F = 1.33 deg c and 170 deg F = 62.44 deg c, so 61.11 deg change in C. 7 gallons is 26497.88246 cubic centimeters. Then we need 1619285.597 calories, or 6775090.937 joules.

So at:
1. 5500w it would take: 1231.834 seconds = 20.5 minutes
2. 4500w: 1505.576 seconds = 25.1 minutes
3. 3500w: 1935.740 seconds = 32.26 minutes
4. 2500w: 2710.036 seconds = 45.167 minutes
5. 1500w: 4516.727 seconds = 1 hour 15 minutes.

Of course that is assuming 100% efficiency of transfer, and that there is no heat loss while you're heating.

I use 2x 5500 watt elements in my boil kettle, 2x 4500w elements in my HLT, and one 4500 watt element in my RIMS. The boil kettle will easily take 5 gallons of 60 deg F water to a boil in 10 min in my basement which is usually around 60deg F ambient.... Of course that pulls about 46 amps at 240v.

60 to boil in 10ish. Snickey's! Huge motivator to install a 2nd 20 amp circuit in my basement. I need to think about this.

If you have access to the panel, either put in two dedicated 120 or one 240 spa panel just for brewing. If you know an electrician, it will only cost you about $50 in parts and a couple of beers.

I'm in an apartment, and can't add a 240. But I might just add a separate outlet so I can run a 120 element on it's own breaker.

B

shushikiary said:

1 watt = 1 joule/second. 1 calorie = 1 gram of water changing temperature by 1deg C. 1 gram of water is 1 cubic centimeter. There are 3785.41178 cubic centimeters per gallon, and deg F = 9/5 * deg C + 32. 1 calorie is 4.184 joule

Now, 60 deg F = 1.33 deg c and 170 deg F = 62.44 deg c, so 61.11 deg change in C. 7 gallons is 26497.88246 cubic centimeters. Then we need 1619285.597 calories, or 6775090.937 joules.

So at:
1. 5500w it would take: 1231.834 seconds = 20.5 minutes
2. 4500w: 1505.576 seconds = 25.1 minutes
3. 3500w: 1935.740 seconds = 32.26 minutes
4. 2400w: 2710.036 seconds = 45.167 minutes
5. 1500w: 4516.727 seconds = 1 hour 15 minutes.

Of course that is assuming 100% efficiency of transfer, and that there is no heat loss while you're heating.

I use 2x 5500 watt elements in my boil kettle, 2x 4500w elements in my HLT, and one 4500 watt element in my RIMS. The boil kettle will easily take 5 gallons of 60 deg F water to a boil in 10 min in my basement which is usually around 60deg F ambient.... Of course that pulls about 46 amps at 240v.

Click to expand...

That's the kind of math I was looking for. I know this will not be exact as I'm sure I"ll lose some efficency somewhere. It seems this would be doable if I had a single 4500w element or perhaps two 2000w elements.

A few more questions since I started looking at these things:

Is there a big difference in elements? Are the home depot cheapo's as good as anything else out there or is there a reason to spend 4x the $$$ on something else?

Is there any disadvantage to using the heat stick versus poking new holes in my brew kettle? After seeing a few pictures of these, it seems like this would make for an easier build.

I think mounting the element in the vessel is easier than building a heat stick, but a heat stick is more versatile. So...

I use this calculator at the bottom, seems accurate for my setup.
http://manskirtbrewing.com/calcs.shtml

Sometimes the cheaper elements can get rust on their face place, but that can also occur on the expensive ones too, but many them in my experience have better protection against that.

The best regarded brand is camco. All mine are camco. There is another thread on here that talks about where to get them from.

Personally I MUCH prefer them to be installed in the keggle because then I dont have PVC sticking in my wort or anything else, not only that but mine is in the processes of being automated and I dont want to move heat sticks around. And, with a heat stick, if your dog or someone else comes around and yanks on the cord and pulls it out of the water while it is on... ZAP goes your element and you get to buy a new one.


I should mention as well, that if you go the 5500w or 2x5500 what way, make sure you can lower the power once you reach boil. 11,000w of boil off power makes you loose a lot of water in an hour. I have my elements wired at the moment so that I can have both on, one one, or them in series (11,000w, 5500w, 2750w respectively). For a 5 gallon batch once I reach boil I switch in series for 2750w of boil power, plenty to have a very nice rolling boil with 5 gallons, but with 15 gallons 2750 isnt quite enough to keep a rolling boil, so I switch to 5500w.

studmonk3y said:

I use this calculator at the bottom, seems accurate for my setup.
http://manskirtbrewing.com/calcs.shtml

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That is quite a cool calculator! It seems that I should be using at least a 3500 watt element to get the times where I want them. If I do that, I'm not sure why I wouldn't go for a 4500w version - seems the same in terms of circuits etc..

The things that are appealing about the heat stick aproach are:

1. Seems like it would be much easier to clean the keggle once brewing is done.

2. I can remove the heat stick and put in the whirlpooler and it seems that it would probably work better.

3. I don't have to poke any new holes in the keggle

4. If I decide to use more heat - I can just make another heat stick.

I'm having a hard time seeing what the advantage of the built in version would be.

1. You can still remove the element for cleanup. You just can't fill it all the way up.

2. The element in my 10 gallon kettle doesn't keep it from making a nice pile in the middle after whirlpooling.

3. You don't have to build a heatstick, you just drill a hole.

4. If you size it correctly the first time, you won't need more heat, but if you do want more heat, get a bigger element, they come in all flavors and are usually under $20.

IMHO

Patirck said:

The things that are appealing about the heat stick aproach are:................

.

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The advantage of a heatstick IMO is that it can be used in the HLT, MLT (for strike water, or to raise the mash temp if constantly stirred), and in the boil kettle.

That being said, fixed elements work great as well. Up to you??

Patirck said:

The things that are appealing about the heat stick aproach are:

1. Seems like it would be much easier to clean the keggle once brewing is done.

2. I can remove the heat stick and put in the whirlpooler and it seems that it would probably work better.

3. I don't have to poke any new holes in the keggle

4. If I decide to use more heat - I can just make another heat stick.

I'm having a hard time seeing what the advantage of the built in version would be.

Click to expand...

(I have 4 heatsticks now)

I suppose the main advantages to having built in elements would be convenience and neatness. Dragging a bunch of heatsticks around is kind of a pain, and they don't look as pretty sticking out the top of a cooler or keggle.

My new wooden brewstand has space to store my heatsticks, so the convenience aspect kind of goes away.

Maybe this is for another thread but perhaps we can get some of you to post pictures of your heatsticks? OK - it's a bit early but that does sound like a bit of an odd question.

I was thinking of a short piece of stainless or copper that has a 1" NPT for the element on one end and a thread on the other end for coupler to go from 1" to say 1/2 or 3/8 copper pipe to go up out of the water with a bend in it to get it over the side of the keggle where the wires would come out. Also fashioning some kind of wood handle that would suspend it in the keggle so the element wouldn't touch the bottom seems like a good idea.

studmonk3y said:

I use this calculator at the bottom, seems accurate for my setup.
http://manskirtbrewing.com/calcs.shtml

Click to expand...

Thanks, nice to know someone's using it besides me

-Joe

shushikiary said:

I should mention as well, that if you go the 5500w or 2x5500 what way, make sure you can lower the power once you reach boil. 11,000w of boil off power makes you loose a lot of water in an hour. I have my elements wired at the moment so that I can have both on, one one, or them in series (11,000w, 5500w, 2750w respectively). For a 5 gallon batch once I reach boil I switch in series for 2750w of boil power, plenty to have a very nice rolling boil with 5 gallons, but with 15 gallons 2750 isnt quite enough to keep a rolling boil, so I switch to 5500w.

Click to expand...

Would you mind explaining that wiring in detail?

Clint

Patirck said:

Also fashioning some kind of wood handle that would suspend it in the keggle so the element wouldn't touch the bottom seems like a good idea.

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Not sure I'd want wood in my boil, could give some off flavors?

To turn one element off turn breakers 1 and 2 or 3 and 4 off while the others are on.

To run full power all 4 breakers on.

To run in series turn breakers 1 and 4 off, leave 2 and 3 on and turn switch on. (WARNING: NEVER turn the switch on while breakers 1 and 4 are on, you'll short across 220 and pop one or all of the breakers up the line). I have a cover over the switch so you cant bump it.

Patirck said:

Maybe this is for another thread but perhaps we can get some of you to post pictures of your heatsticks? OK - it's a bit early but that does sound like a bit of an odd question.

Click to expand...

Here are mine:

wyzazz said:

Not sure I'd want wood in my boil, could give some off flavors?

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I was thinking of somthing that would rest horizontaly across the top of the keggle that would also act as a non conductive handle (non conductive in both the heat and electrical sense). The wood would not go in the wort.

I guess I could use some sort of plastic as well. Just have to find something that can stand the temperature. I looked at Lowes and it seems that everything they have is only rated to 180f.

Patirck said:

I was thinking of somthing that would rest horizontaly across the top of the keggle that would also act as a non conductive handle (non conductive in both the heat and electrical sense). The wood would not go in the wort.

I guess I could use some sort of plastic as well. Just have to find something that can stand the temperature. I looked at Lowes and it seems that everything they have is only rated to 180f.

Click to expand...

Ahhh, my mistake. On the simple end of things you could use a dowel rod or 2x2 with a hole drilled in to it and a zip-tie.

You could also put a u-shaped section (like in a sink trap) of pipe or pvc on the upper end (cord end) and make the heatstick the right length so the u section hooks over the edge of the pot and holds the element off the bottom.

nostalgia said:

Thanks, nice to know someone's using it besides me

-Joe

Click to expand...

Its a great site! I am also impressed by what you can do with a piece of wood.

Do somebody uses Camco 2500W/3500W 240V UltraLWD?

Can you please measure it for me? It seems, that they have wrong dimensions on amazon.

thanks