Testing long primary

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ChshreCat

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Ok, I know this isn't totally scientific because I don't have a control, but it's something.

There are still folks clinging to the concept of autolysis in home brewing and other worries about leaving a beer too long in primary. So, I propose this.

I'm a lazy bastard and I have a beer I brewed in August that's been sitting in primary ever since. It's on my kitchen counter, in a bucket as we speak.

Hey there... we can add to the hysteria. It's been in PLASTIC since August!

So. I'm going to bottle up this beer someday soon when I get off my butt and get around to it. Then, I'm going to send it in as one of my entries for the HBT comp that's coming up in just a short while. Then, I'm going to post the comments I get from all my score sheets in this thead and we'll see if they detect anything that can be blamed on the long time sitting on the yeast cake and/or sitting in plastic all this time.

Not gonna add any yeast at bottling. Not gonna do anything special. Not even going to use oxygen absorbing caps.

Like I said, not totally scientific but maybe revealing nonetheless?
 
Sounds like a good test to me. Can you post the recipe and category you are entering? Can't wait to hear the results. Just don't name it "Autolysis?" ...
 
Don't think I'll reveal that until the end. Just to keep it a totally anonymous beer at the contest. I know the judges won't know which beer is which, but might as well keep it all to myself for now.
 
I just did 5.5 months in a bucket with the Chocolate Mole Porter that I brewed just before the discovery of the heart issues. My plan is similar to yours. But first I'm going to have a couple judges I know socially blind taste it first. Not going to tell them anything about it, just that it is the latest version of the beer I won the bronze on.

My problem with contest enterring it though is since it's category 23...I do know that the chilli has faded in time...I debate about whether to add more chili when boiling my priming soultion, but with everything going on I just decided to get it in the bottles. So I don't think it's the BEST example of my recipe anymore. But I don't think it's got the dreaded autolysis in it either. It tasted very clean when I bottled it.
 
I just did 5.5 months in a bucket with the Chocolate Mole Porter that I brewed just before the discovery of the heart issues. My plan is similar to yours. But first I'm going to have a couple judges I know socially blind taste it first. Not going to tell them anything about it, just that it is the latest version of the beer I won the bronze on.

My problem with contest enterring it though is since it's category 23...I do know that the chilli has faded in time...I debate about whether to add more chili when boiling my priming soultion, but with everything going on I just decided to get it in the bottles. So I don't think it's the BEST example of my recipe anymore. But I don't think it's got the dreaded autolysis in it either. It tasted very clean when I bottled it.

Yeah, I don't know if this will win or lose (ok, I lie, I think it'll win. I always think my beers will win!) but it'll be a nice exercise to see what the judges have to say about the beer. They won't know anything about how long it was in primary or how it was brewed. It'll just be another beer with a number on it and they'll record what they taste.
 
Alright. For the record, I FINALLY bottled this batch tonight. Approximately 5 months in primary. Beer smelled delicious. Beyond that, when I rinsed the yeast cake out of it (very tight, compact yeast cake, BTW) it smelled like a completely normal yeast cake. No rotten meat smell like people say there should be.

I tasted a sample from it and, not surprisingly, it didn't have the green taste I usually have when I taste the sample at bottling. :D

And it tasted AMAZING.

So, this will be conditioning until the comp and I'll post all notes here as promised.
 
I have fermented beer for about 6 weeks before, just being lazy and have never found a rotten or meaty aroma or flavor. I think I can predict what your results will be like...
 
I have fermented beer for about 6 weeks before, just being lazy and have never found a rotten or meaty aroma or flavor. I think I can predict what your results will be like...

I did 5.5 months and the beer is awesome. Except it was my chocolate mole porter, and some of the chili and chocolate aroma has faded, but the beer is still plenty spicy, and crystal clear.
 
My Celebration Ale clone has to be getting on towards ten weeks on the yeast.

Something about winter in the Midwest makes me feel more like drinking beer than siphoning it into kegs. I'll probably keg sometime this week.
 
Yep, I know lots of us have done long primaries, but still some folks might think of this as cute baby syndrome. It's our beer so we can't smell or taste what's wrong with it. So, I'm going to let the judges decide and post the results.
 
Yep, I know lots of us have done long primaries, but still some folks might think of this as cute baby syndrome. It's our beer so we can't smell or taste what's wrong with it. So, I'm going to let the judges decide and post the results.

Good idea. Laziness is next to Godliness IMO (Except when it comes to sanitation and cleaning). Bottling or Racking to Secondary should be done when most convenient. ;)

I'm very interested in hearing the results. Thanks
 
Yep, I know lots of us have done long primaries, but still some folks might think of this as cute baby syndrome. It's our beer so we can't smell or taste what's wrong with it. So, I'm going to let the judges decide and post the results.

I've said it over and over, I've been getting honorable mentions and even medals for my beers since the very first batch I did a long primary for several years, that's EXACTLY why I keep doing it. First contest I entered the long primary beer did waaaay better than the one I secondaried, and the comments were, "crystal clear" "Crisp tasting" and the one that nailed it for me, "Jewell Like Appearance."

That was WHY I became an advocate to begin with.
 
I've said it over and over, I've been getting honorable mentions and even medals for my beers since the very first batch I did a long primary for several years, that's EXACTLY why I keep doing it. First contest I entered the long primary beer did waaaay better than the one I secondaried, and the comments were, "crystal clear" "Crisp tasting" and the one that nailed it for me, "Jewell Like Appearance."

That was WHY I became an advocate to begin with.

Yep. That's why I want to do this. Announce before I even bottle that I'm going to enter it and post the comments, word for word. Hopefully convince a few people who just don't believe it's possible.
 
Winning awards and long primaries are not necessarily related. I have won awards with 1.060+ ales that were in the fermenter for 10 days. The long time sitting there is not really doing anything more for your beer than you have already done by brewing it and fermenting it well. After that long of a time that yeast has long since went to sleep and is not doing anything. I am sure that those same beers would have done well in competition regardless of how long they sat over the yeast. Commercial brewers can brew world class beers(ales) and they are grain to glass in 14-21 days tops even without filtering.
 
Winning awards and long primaries are not necessarily related. I have won awards with 1.060+ ales that were in the fermenter for 10 days. The long time sitting there is not really doing anything more for your beer than you have already done by brewing it and fermenting it well. After that long of a time that yeast has long since went to sleep and is not doing anything. I am sure that those same beers would have done well in competition regardless of how long they sat over the yeast. Commercial brewers can brew world class beers(ales) and they are grain to glass in 14-21 days tops even without filtering.

You really haven't read any of the bazillian tons of information about this on here have you before forming your opinion. If you think the yeast is asleep during this time you don't understand the fermentation process at all......we've covered this ad nausuem...

Most of your idea have been shot down or discussed eslewhere, including what "commercial breweries do" and why....:rolleyes:

Some of your arguments have been covered with actual citations here;

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/apologies-revvy-212108/index2.html#post2484776

Hell, the whole threads got some info you might want to consider...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/apologies-revvy-212108/index2.html

And here.....

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/s...amil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/?highlight=jamil

Sorry, but have you done it, or are you just "armchair quaterbacking?" As you see in the "apologies to Revvy" thread, a lot of those providing only "opinions" when they try it, tend to jump the fench.... :rolleyes:

Besides, contests are a great way to tell if this holds true or not...because if a judges doesn't say "tastes like year old rotthing gorilla poop" and instead points out the clarity of the beer, and the crispness of flavor...then it further confirms the merits of doing so....

Anyway, we've heard your arguments before..by many who have come back with a different tune, once they actually try it......

*Yawn*
 
LOL,

Revvy, it's amazing that you are still able to go through this conversation without going nuts. The stress isn't good for you.

Hopefully you just have a draft (not a beer draught) and can copy/paste this to keep your sanity.
 
LOL,

Revvy, it's amazing that you are still able to go through this conversation without going nuts. The stress isn't good for you.

Hopefully you just have a draft somewhere and copy/paste this to keep your sanity.

You should have read what I REALLY started to say to him....but basically it rang something like "Yadda Yadda Yadda *&@# #@#%^, been there heard that, you're %$#$@@...You know what they say about opinions...they're like ****%$%, 'cause they both hold hot air...neener neener neerner....."

:fro:

But I refrained....But they are all boring arguments that have been pretty much shot down several hundred times over the last years we've been discussing AND doing this....he can believe that it doesn't do anything, and awards do matter, and we'll keep racking up the medals and morei importantly good comments from judges about these beers....
 
Never gotta convince some folks that a long primary is a good thing to do. I'm just hoping to show it's not a BAD thing to do. :D

(and some people just seem to have a taste for green beer)
 
I'm just hoping to show it's not a BAD thing to do.

I thought that THAT was the argument, LoL. And I agree that sometimes you just have to try being different to see if there is good reason as to why everybody is doing it that way, or if they are just following the pack.
That being said, I tend to get out of primary early more because I own 4 carboys and only 2 buckets (don't ask) and because the jump to secondary is my first step of "filtration." I won't nay-say someone for staying in primary the entire time and I look forward to hearing the results!
 
I guess for my own curiosity, I'm more interested in knowing whether longer than a month in primary is more beneficial. Does there seem to be an optimal time that is > 1 month? Is 1 month just a good compromise?

I am just curious if this delta in time has been tested (vs. the debate of whether or not to keep on primary).
 
This, along with the other threads aforementioned, are prompting me to sell my carboys on craigslist and use the proceeds to buy Ale Pails!
 
This, along with the other threads aforementioned, are prompting me to sell my carboys on craigslist and use the proceeds to buy Ale Pails!

I am right there with you. After doing some reading on yeast and its stages in fermentation, I am amazed at this little creature. I wish people cleaned up after themselves as much as yeast do. Anyone want to buy some better bottles? I have three going up for sale. Or maybe I will offer them up on the "Pay It Forward" thread.
 
I have two rather extreme examples that I still need to bottle. I brewed up two batches of belgian tripels in May of 2009, and got really busy with work and ended up moving a few months later, them still in the buckets. I told myself that I'd bottle right after I got settled. The new place didn't have the room to brew, so I kind of lost the drive to bottle as I wouldn't be refilling the pails anytime soon. I moved again, and got into an accident and there they still sit. I opened them a few months ago, and they smelled great.

I did this once before with a german hefe (6 mo). It was very clear, but I kicked up a little yeast with bottling, and they taste good, even still had plenty of phenolics.
 
I never said it was a bad thing to do have the beer in the fermenter for a long period. I am just saying that it is not a better, or the best way to do it as I continually read on this forum. It is just another way to achieve the desired results. I have tight temp control on my ferments and pitch the right amount of high quality yeast and I can get crisp, clean, clear beers that are well fermented and clean of by-products and off flavors in 10-14 days with most ales.
 
I never said it was a bad thing to do have the beer in the fermenter for a long period. I am just saying that it is not a better, or the best way to do it as I continually read on this forum. It is just another way to achieve the desired results. I have tight temp control on my ferments and pitch the right amount of high quality yeast and I can get crisp, clean, clear beers that are well fermented and clean of by-products and off flavors in 10-14 days with most ales.

Yadda yadda yadda wank wank wank.....Many of us beg to differ, including John Palmer in the first How to brew..go read those links I so gratiously provided you....Like I said, you haven't "opined" anyhting we haven't alreadt covered ad nauseum...believe what you want, but that doesn't mean what you believe is necessarily right...I believe that I'm thin and supermodels find be mysterious and sexy...but that doesn't necessarily mean that the Victoria Secret Covergirls are eating crackers in my bed. ;)

Beat_Dead_Horse.jpg
 
Lots of the more experienced brewer on this site have had "perfect" fermentation methods, and yet many of them eventually came to the conclusion that the secondary is a waste of time in most cases and an extended primary improved their beer even more.

I don't think any of these guys are saying that there is only one way, but I have yet to see anyone post that with the proper amount of good yeast, and correct fermentation control, leaving their beer in the primary cause any problems.

What I think they are saying is that what people USED to say about leaving the beer on the yeast is not true any more. There is a lot more information available today about how to pitch good yeast. There is better yeast available. People understand the ENTIRE fermentation and aging process better than they did before. All together, it adds up to "If your practices are proper, there is no reason to take the beer off the yeast. Autolysis is not a problem."
 
Yadda yadda yadda wank wank wank.....Many of us beg to differ, including John Palmer in the first How to brew..go read those links I so gratiously provided you....Like I said, you haven't "opined" anyhting we haven't alreadt covered ad nauseum...believe what you want, but that doesn't mean what you believe is necessarily right...I believe that I'm thin and supermodels find be mysterious and sexy...but that doesn't necessarily mean that the Victoria Secret Covergirls are eating crackers in my bed.


First of all, I was never said that you were wrong for leaving the beer in the fermenter(can we just get off of the whole "primary/secondary" thing? You put your beer in the fermenter and ferment it. There is no need for any such adjectives) for extended periods. What I am saying is that TONS of people ferment their ales for 10-14 days and make great, award winning beer, including most commercial brewers. So when you take this approach

Sorry, but have you done it, or are you just "armchair quaterbacking?" As you see in the "apologies to Revvy" thread, a lot of those providing only "opinions" when they try it, tend to jump the fench....

Besides, contests are a great way to tell if this holds true or not...because if a judges doesn't say "tastes like year old rotthing gorilla poop" and instead points out the clarity of the beer, and the crispness of flavor...then it further confirms the merits of doing so....

Anyway, we've heard your arguments before..by many who have come back with a different tune, once they actually try it......

*Yawn*

you are purporting that all these people are not doing it right and the "Revvy" way is the only way. I never said anything about autolysis or dead yeast flavors. I just don't think the extended time left in the fermenter is really necessary if you have done everything else correctly and pitched the right amount of clean, healthy yeast, O2, and controlled ferm temps correctly. They will clean themselves up easily in 14 days if you have done all this right.
 
I really don't want this thread to become one of those arguments. As I said... We're never going to convince people that a long primary is a good thing to do. All I'm doing here is a little experiment to try to quell fears that it's a BAD thing to do.
 
I think it is pretty funny how people get all worked up. If you don't like what's on TV...CHANGE the channel.
I'm interested if you find anything Chshre so I'll stay tuned in.
 
How about if you dry hop but then your primary goes longer then you plan? Woo hoo 400th post!
 
I would say that if you dry hopped, then hopefully we're not talking weeks. Do you have a situation like that? How long on the hops? Does it taste like fescue?
 
I would say that if you dry hopped, then hopefully we're not talking weeks. Do you have a situation like that? How long on the hops? Does it taste like fescue?

Its been dry hoped about 2 weeks now. Gonna keg it today or tomorrow. Just curious what happens if youre dry hop goes long, not trying to hijack the thread but thought it pertains. :mug:
 
I really don't want this thread to become one of those arguments. As I said... We're never going to convince people that a long primary is a good thing to do. All I'm doing here is a little experiment to try to quell fears that it's a BAD thing to do.

I agree with you and your approach. I just had to respond to some misleading information contained here

I've said it over and over, I've been getting honorable mentions and even medals for my beers since the very first batch I did a long primary for several years, that's EXACTLY why I keep doing it. First contest I entered the long primary beer did waaaay better than the one I secondaried, and the comments were, "crystal clear" "Crisp tasting" and the one that nailed it for me, "Jewell Like Appearance."

That was WHY I became an advocate to begin with.


Leaving a beer in the fermenter for 4 weeks that did not have award winning flavor at 2 weeks is not going to make it now award winning. Yes, there is something to be said about a "conditioning" phase, but usually that is done cold and having a big pile of yeast underneath is not the reason that the flavor has now come together. Just because those beers won awards and were very good beers does not mean that it was the long time sitting on the yeast that made them that way. Also, I have no idea how "crisp tasting" has anything to do with leaving the beer sitting on the yeast? I would like someone to try to quantify that for me. That seems like it would have more to do with a good recipe, good process, healthy fermentation, and especially the proper pH. I just see Revvy all over this forum speaking to the greatness of long times spent in the fermenter and I don't believe that it is as important as he says it is.

After all, Jamil the yeast whisperer himself usually only holds his beer in the fermenter for 8-14 days for ales according to most of his podcasts and it is hard to argue with his success.
 
Its been dry hoped about 2 weeks now. Gonna keg it today or tomorrow. Just curious what happens if youre dry hop goes long, not trying to hijack the thread but thought it pertains. :mug:

If you dry hop too long you can develop some odd vegetal flavors to your beer. I've also found that there's kind of a curve involved in the aroma. As you dry hop longer it imparts more aroma to the beer, but eventually you peak and it starts dropping off again as the volatiles start evaporating from the beer faster than they're being extracted from the hops.
 
If you dry hop too long you can develop some odd vegetal flavors to your beer. I've also found that there's kind of a curve involved in the aroma. As you dry hop longer it imparts more aroma to the beer, but eventually you peak and it starts dropping off again as the volatiles start evaporating from the beer faster than they're being extracted from the hops.

What is your experience of being too long? And at what volumes of hops are we speaking of?
 
I inadvertantly dryhopped an APA for 18 days with 1.5 ounces of hops (1 oz amarillo and .5 cascade), then moved it to a tertiary fermenter for a week to try to settle out some of the hop particles (I dry hopped with pellets that time) before bottling. I submitted it to the HBT BJCP competition last year and it won the American ales category so it couldn't have been too bad of a thing. Although, the one criticism the judges had was that it could've used a little more hop aroma.
 
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