Did I insult my Wyeast 1214?

Ok, so I brewed a Belgian Dubbel this past Sunday. I used a 1L starter (w/ stir plate) to get my Wyeast 1214 going. And it was going good. From Sunday afternoon through Tuesday night, I had the primary in my guestroom and it was chugging along @ 76-78 degrees per the tape thermometer on the side of the carboy.

I thought to myself (first mistake), “Perhaps that is too warm? Perhaps I am getting more esters than I’d care for? I don’t want it to turn solvent-like. Perhaps I should move it down to the basement, under the stairs, where it can cool down 4-5 degrees?”

So, late Tuesday night I listened to myself (second mistake) and agreed with myself (final mistake) and moved her from the guestroom to the dark, cool space under the basement stairs.

This morning (Wednesday), what was a vigorous ferment the night before is now sitting like a couch potato @ 72 degrees. No activity in the airlock, and that thick, nasty top-fermenting cake is a mere shadow of its former self.

Can this be coincidence? Was she due to stop after two days anyway? Or did I insult my 1214?

I’ve heard that the Belgians in general can be finicky about temp and that if you try to mess with them, they can crash on you. (Why I didn’t listen to that voice instead, only Heaven knows.) But I don’t know if that caution applies to ALL Belgian yeasts, or just particular ones.

Any advice from those who know this particular strain?
Should I move her back upstairs?
Should I swirl?
Should I pitch more yeast? If so, can I go with a clean dry yeast, or should I stick with 1214?
Should I wait?

I'd give it a few days and I bet you see activity again

I think that at that initial temp, you got the bulk of fermentation over with very quickly. My experience with 1214 is that above about 65F, it's a banana bomb.

Denny said:

I think that at that initial temp, you got the bulk of fermentation over with very quickly. My experience with 1214 is that above about 65F, it's a banana bomb.

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My experience dictates the same. I have used it 4 times. Id ferment as cool as possible. Fermented above 70 it was way too many esters for my liking. Your tastes may be different. I couldn't drink it though. I aged it 9 months and it still tasted too estery for me. It would ferment very fast at those temps, take a reading and see.

A geniune "thanks" for responding, and a sarcastic "thanks" for some potential bad news.

I'm a bit confused though, because Wyeast labs gives it a comfort range of 68-78 degrees. Why would they say that if it results in putrid beer?

I recognize there may be a natural discrepancy due to personal tastes, but putrid is putrid. I would assume somebody using a Belgian Abbey yeast strain is intending to target a Belgian Abbey flavored beer because they like that taste, and I would also assume that Wyeast would provide a temp range that results in that same level of ester/flavor profile.

1214 is crazy at high temps. My first time I used I thought the same. Hey I like bananna flavor, the directions say ferment high for bananna...so.. It was too much for me. Take a hydo reading, hopefully it turns out ok. My neighbors couldnt taste bannana and drank it. I couldnt handle it personally.

Ok, so now I'm thinking maybe I was right to get it down to 72 degrees. But I'm still in the predicament of a (possibly) stuck fermentation.

I'll take a reading tonight and wait it out to next week before I take another to see if there's any progress. However, if I find that I am truly 'stuck', would what folks recommend?

Should I up the temp and swirl to wake up the yeast?
Should I pitch more yeast? If so, can I go with a clean dry yeast, or should I stick with 1214?

Judochop said:

I'm a bit confused though, because Wyeast labs gives it a comfort range of 68-78 degrees. Why would they say that if it results in putrid beer?

I recognize there may be a natural discrepancy due to personal tastes, but putrid is putrid. I would assume somebody using a Belgian Abbey yeast strain is intending to target a Belgian Abbey flavored beer because they like that taste, and I would also assume that Wyeast would provide a temp range that results in that same level of ester/flavor profile.

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In general, both Wyeast and White give temp recommendations that are way higher than most people find good. I feel that a lot of their recommendations are based more on getting good yeast performance than good beer flavor. And I say that in spite of my relationship with Wyeast.

Judochop said:

Ok, so now I'm thinking maybe I was right to get it down to 72 degrees. But I'm still in the predicament of a (possibly) stuck fermentation.

I'll take a reading tonight and wait it out to next week before I take another to see if there's any progress. However, if I find that I am truly 'stuck', would what folks recommend?

Should I up the temp and swirl to wake up the yeast?
Should I pitch more yeast? If so, can I go with a clean dry yeast, or should I stick with 1214?

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Don't assume you have a stuck fermentation until you take a gravity reading. A 1L starter is on the small side so it may take a while to ferment out. It's been less than a week, so I really think you're jumping the gun.

Okeedokee. I'll give it a couple weeks and will report back if there's been no progress.

I'm concerned that I shocked my yeast into permanent hibernation only because I've read that Belgian yeasts tend to react that way to sudden cooler temps. If this was an English strain, I'd not have even mentioned it.

Thanks.

I used this yeast about 4 weeks ago on a fat tire clone. It took it 36 hours to krausen and finished in about a week~or a little more. Don't worry about changing the temps at least mine had a variance of about 6 degrees from 65-71 and I didn't think it was that estery. Belgian beers are supposed to be estery if you don't like esters why would you use a belgian strain. My only complaint is that mine turned out a little spicier than fat tire. Take a reading, if it is not done stir it up or rack it over to another fermenter...it will finish out. happy brewing

If somebody told you to use 1214 for Fat Tire, I'm afraid it won't be much of a "clone".....

Denny said:

If somebody told you to use 1214 for Fat Tire, I'm afraid it won't be much of a "clone".....

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Explain why you think that.

I started a Belgian dubbel with 1214 just under two weeks ago. OG was 1.08 or so, and I did a pretty small starter. (Maybe 1/4 gallon.) I originally left it out in my 75-78 degree downstairs bath, but then put it in a swamp cooler later that night and got it down to the low 70s. Chugged along for only a day or two and then no airlock activity at all.

Took a hydro sample tonight and it is down to 1.024. Still tasted a little sweet, and I can see that it's going to take a while to calm down and become all it can be, but that 1214 is kicking ace.

You'll be fine. Take a hydro in a week and I'm sure you'll see a difference.

oldschool said:

Explain why you think that.

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Mainly because Fat Tire isn't fermented with a belgian yeast.

jjp36 said:

Mainly because Fat Tire isn't fermented with a belgian yeast.

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You must be drunk.

oldschool said:

I used this yeast about 4 weeks ago on a fat tire clone.

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Denny said:

If somebody told you to use 1214 for Fat Tire, I'm afraid it won't be much of a "clone".....

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oldschool said:

Explain why you think that.

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Fat Tire Amber Ale

Not Exactly a Belgian
Fat Tire is amber ale produced by New Belgium Brewing Co. in Colorado. While New Belgium makes some tremendous Belgian style beers, make no mistake, Fat Tire is not one of them. Fat Tire is an American style amber or brown ale brewed with standard American ale yeast. It is easy-drinking, and quite likable - hence its current popularity.

The Beer
From the New Belgium Website : "Like the ageless delight of pedaling a bicycle, Fat Tire Amber Ale’s appeal is in its feat of balance: Toasty malt flavors (sorta like biscuits just pulled from the oven) coasting in equilibrium with crisp hoppiness. Delicious stability..."

Since it's my topic, I reserve the right to get off it.

Never cared for Fat Tire. Drinkable, but not pleasantly so. I fail to recognize the 'crisp hoppiness' they promote. I've said my peace.

I look forward to the 1214 banana bouquet I will receive when I open up my primary this Sunday to rack. OG was 1.066 (first time I was actually over my predicted! Woohoo!). Used 1.25 lbs of candi sugar, so I'm hoping for a nice clean FG. Maybe in the 1.014-1.015 range.

AnOldUR said:

Fat Tire Amber Ale

Not Exactly a Belgian
Fat Tire is amber ale produced by New Belgium Brewing Co. in Colorado. While New Belgium makes some tremendous Belgian style beers, make no mistake, Fat Tire is not one of them. Fat Tire is an American style amber or brown ale brewed with standard American ale yeast. It is easy-drinking, and quite likable - hence its current popularity.

The Beer
From the New Belgium Website : "Like the ageless delight of pedaling a bicycle, Fat Tire Amber Ale’s appeal is in its feat of balance: Toasty malt flavors (sorta like biscuits just pulled from the oven) coasting in equilibrium with crisp hoppiness. Delicious stability..."

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First of all, sorry for leading this thread astray. Where do you get your information stating that it uses American Ale yeast?

oldschool said:

Where do you get your information stating that it uses American Ale yeast?

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How about the brewmaster at New Belgium Brewery. Even they call it an Amber Ale where Belgian yeast is not appropriate. Don't let the "Belgium" in New Belgium fool you. It's a common mistake.

BYO article.

The brewery is now run by Peter Bouckaert . . . As for yeast, Bouckaert suggests using a strain low in esters and other flavor components, like American pale ale yeast (Wyeast 1056 or BrewTek CL-10).

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Brew365

While New Belgium makes some tremendous Belgian style beers, make no mistake, Fat Tire is not one of them.

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Beeradvocate

Style | ABV
American Amber / Red Ale

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Let us know how it is when you taste it.

It's been quite a while since the last post but I thought I would ask to see if it came out full-o-bananas or not?

I just brewed a Leffe Brune clone with 1214 yesterday. By this morning it was fermenting like CRAZY and it's internal temp was 78: about 10 degrees above room temperature in my basement!

I have it sitting in a cold water bath covered with a wet t-shirt and a fan on it. Now the temperature is more like 68. I'll try to keep it that low from now on; I couldn't believe how fast it rocketed up there.

Do you think that 14 hours or so at 78 is going to cause any major banana flavors or did I bring it down in time?

rebrandsoftware said:

Do you think that 14 hours or so at 78 is going to cause any major banana flavors or did I bring it down in time?

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In my experience, you're likely to have big time banana/bubble gum flavors.

Darn. I guess only time will really tell, though. I'll have to start it out at a lower temperature next time.

It's about 66 degrees now and still fermenting nicely. Doesn't seem to have been turned off by the sudden temperature change at all.

Besides the off flavors, you may be in for some headache inducing fusel alcohols, too. But like you say, only tome will tell. For that yeast, I like to start it off at about 62F and after 4-7 days start ramping the temp up to maybe around 70 or so.

At what point do you think it would be apparent by tasting? Right now? After primary?

I have the ingredients for another batch. If nothing else I could do an interesting experiment once I transfer it to secondary by brewing another and starting around 62F like you said.

This early in fermentation, there will be so many weird flavors you probably couldn't tell anything. Wait til after primary and taste it. And even if it's weird, don't give up. Some aging might bring it around. And you've got the right idea...brew another batch and try something different!

Thanks for the responses. After reading more I'm feeling more optimistic: the room I fermented in is not a banana factory like so many people report. In fact, when I take a direct whiff from the airlock I only get a small amount of banana and bubblegum.

I also read that the majority of esters are produced as fermentation winds down, so there's still a glimmer of hope that I took control of the temperature in time. Maybe that in combination with my larger than average starter will save the day!

Regardless, I'll update when I transfer to secondary in case it helps anyone in the future.

rebrandsoftware said:

I also read that the majority of esters are produced as fermentation winds down, so there's still a glimmer of hope that I took control of the temperature in time. Maybe that in combination with my larger than average starter will save the day!

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I'd be curious to know where you read that. My experience, and most of the info I've read, is that the majority of esters are formed early on, in the first few days of fermentation.

lowlife said:

My experience dictates the same. I have used it 4 times. Id ferment as cool as possible. Fermented above 70 it was way too many esters for my liking. Your tastes may be different. I couldn't drink it though. I aged it 9 months and it still tasted too estery for me. It would ferment very fast at those temps, take a reading and see.

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Responding to my own thread way late here.

It turned out fine. Probably more estery than what would be wise for competition, or for many drinkers in general, but I liked it plenty. Not to say I wouldn't ferment cooler next time I used 1214, but I finished the keg without a complaint. I fear not the ester.

+1 to esters being formed early on. That is my understanding. That is what I've read/heard from every professional source I've researched. The first 2, maybe 3, days of fermentation is your critical zone.

Belgian yeasts are notorious for going dormant if you suddenly drop the temp on them like that. That is one reason why it is good to pitch on the cool side and let it ramp up. Once it gets going, you really run the risk of your yeast permanantly crapping out if you try to bring the temp down. I know this is mentioned in Brew Like a Monk.

Denny said:

I'd be curious to know where you read that. My experience, and most of the info I've read, is that the majority of esters are formed early on, in the first few days of fermentation.

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It was on one of these forums somewhere so I took it with a grain of salt, but essentially they were saying that stressed yeast produced heavy esters and that the stress would occur with underpitched yeast or as the yeast started running out of sugars.

In the later case it would be at the end of fermentation and I think that at high temperatures that would still be in the range of 2-3 days, lining up with what you said.

I'm not sold on this part:

rebrandsoftware said:

the stress would occur... as the yeast started running out of sugars.

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Every healthy fermentation ends with the yeast running out of sugars. I'm not sure that is a stressful situation for them. Underpitching - too much sugar for too few yeast cells to do the job - sure. That makes sense. The other way around, not so much. I think they just go to sleep when there's no more work to be done. They don't sweat over it.

Sorry if I reposted false information from some random forum poster. Definitely not my intent to spread misinformation.

The only thing that really mattered to me at the time was hanging on to a glimmer of hope so that I could sleep at night.

I actually gave in and took a hydrometer reading and taste. It's down from 1.073 to 1.027 now, visible fermentation slowing down. I'm letting the temperature rise up again.

The taste was actually pretty fantastic. It tasted really green but I was getting some nice aromas and it sure seemed like it could turn out to be a nice Leffe Brune clone. I was kind of surprised at how drinkable it was already. No crazy bananas or bubblegum as far as I can tell.

I did get some alcohol notes but since I've never tasted a beer at this point in the fermentation I'm not sure what to think. It wasn't overpowering.

You may have gotten lucky! At any rate, unless you plan on entering it in a contest, all that really matters is that you like it.

Have you checked the SG? I didn't see it in any of the posts. It may be done with most of the primary, though time, settles it further.

Revival on this thread. First post ever actually.

Just pitched 1214 (first time using) into a Strong Golden Ale that had a SG of 1.070 on Sunday night 9 p.m. at a temp of 70˚F and ambient temp of 70˚F.

On Monday woke up to about an inch of krausen already and the yeast had risen in temperature to the upper 70's (78-80) ambient temp still at ~70˚F. Most vigorous fermentation to date. Really full head of krausen (6+ inches by night fall). Blow off glass reeks of bubblegum and banana, little spice present, but the esters seem overwhelming. (Putting my nose in glass right above sanitizing fluid to smell; the room around doesn't smell too much, but it is going through the sanitizer first).

Stayed at 78 until today, Tues, when the bubbling seems to have stopped completely and krausen completely subsided. Yeast is still swirling rather vigorously, however.

After reading the thread, decided to place in the basement at an ambient temp of 63˚F with hopes the esters will be a bit subdued. Hopefully it still ferments out and isn't an ester bomb. I'll keep posting with updates, cheers.

Just to update:

The beer I brewed where I quickly lowered the temperature on day two turned out okay but was missing a lot of the Belgian qualities that I like.

I remade the beer under the proper conditions and the difference was noticeable. The second beer was much better with great aroma and flavor.

If your batch is like mine, you can save it, but it won't be optimal.

Update:

Bottled April 30th and cracked one today. Went from 1.070 to 1.016. Appeared to halt fermentation when I moved it, but small krausen and bubbles reappeared on surface soon after for almost the duration of the fermentation. Like you said rebrand, it's more than salvaged but the esters are very prominent, mainly bubblegum. Not too over-powering, but also a bit solventy/boozey for me. Hoping this may fade with a little time, but we'll see. Still successful overall, but next time I use 1214 I'll start at a much lower temp.