RIMS for Dummies

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kgagecole said:
Quick question. If I put together a similar unit as the RIMS system using a 4500 W 240V heating element, approximately what temp would the fluid exit at? I've seen how a RIMS system can be beneficial, but without spending a lot of money, I thought maybe this little unit could be used as an instant hot water heater for immediate fly sparge water. The water would only be used at an approximate rate of .15-.2 gpm for sparging right? Is this stupid? OK, OK... Maybe not so quick of a question.
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That's kind of overkill. I think at a flowrate of 0.15-0.2 gpm with a heating element of that kind of power you're going to flash boil the water. As Adm. Ackbar would say, "Our cruisers can't withstand fire power of that magnitude!"
That heating element would be better suited in a HERMS system or a true RIMS system and not just a sparge water heating system. Just my two cents.
 
kgagecole said:
Quick question. If I put together a similar unit as the RIMS system using a 4500 W 240V heating element, approximately what temp would the fluid exit at? I've seen how a RIMS system can be beneficial, but without spending a lot of money, I thought maybe this little unit could be used as an instant hot water heater for immediate fly sparge water. The water would only be used at an approximate rate of .15-.2 gpm for sparging right? Is this stupid? OK, OK... Maybe not so quick of a question.
Click to expand...

[ame="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS278&q=4500+W+%2F+%280.2+gal%2Fminute%29+%2F+%284186+J%2Fkg%29+*+1+L%2Fkg+*+1.8&aq=f&aqi=h1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai="]This formula[/ame] using Google calculator will tell you what the temperature rise is in Fahrenheit. Add to that the input temperature and you have the exit temperature. For 4500 W and 0.2 gal/min the temperature rise is 153 F. In theory the PID should be able to throttle it back to you set temperature, but I have a feeling that the PID cycle time will need to be less than 2 seconds for this to work.
 
At a very slow flow rate, it is possible. It's enough for fly sparging, but I wouldn't strike with it. It's also very difficult to tune into that slow of a flow rate with a ball valve. I'd recommend a gate valve for this.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Quaffer said:
This formula using Google calculator will tell you what the temperature rise is in Fahrenheit. Add to that the input temperature and you have the exit temperature. For 4500 W and 0.2 gal/min the temperature rise is 153 F. In theory the PID should be able to throttle it back to you set temperature, but I have a feeling that the PID cycle time will need to be less than 2 seconds for this to work.
Click to expand...

Thanks! So by changing the element to a 3800 W and flow to .25 gpm (which appears to be more the norm) it looks like we would get to about 100-103 degree differential. That seems to be pretty close to perfect assuming my water supply is in the 60-70 degree range.
 
kgagecole said:
Thanks! So by changing the element to a 3800 W and flow to .25 gpm (which appears to be more the norm) it looks like we would get to about 100-103 degree differential. That seems to be pretty close to perfect assuming my water supply is in the 60-70 degree range.
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Are you trying to get by with a fixed flow rate and specific sized element instead of a temperature control such as a PID?

My guess is you will have very inconsistent results if you just plug the element into an outlet with no means of control.

A PID, should be able to limit the upper temp regardless of the element size and still be able to utilize the extra power of a larger element if needed in case your input is lower than expected.

Ed
 
klyph said:
At a very slow flow rate, it is possible. It's enough for fly sparging, but I wouldn't strike with it. It's also very difficult to tune into that slow of a flow rate with a ball valve. I'd recommend a gate valve for this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9X8s07MJ-A
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any reason why you did not start with hot tap water for this test? i always start my brews with 140 degree water out of the tap.

be careful if you ever wash your hands at my house; it will burn ya.
 
I was pushing the temp differential to it's max before I ran out of flow. I just happened to run out near the 170F mark, but didn't have good flow control. If I started with even 100F water, I could pull a decent flow rate.
 
Layne said:
The water from your hot water heater in not good for sparging.
Click to expand...

Why not?

Is there something that make the water unsuitable or are you thinking of the temperature?

If the temperature is the concern, I think the poster was talking about starting to heat from the hot water heater is quicker than cold water.

Ed
 
I guess it's the minerals or something.
I just remember asking the same question, and getting several responses that the water was not suitable.
I guess I should have remembered why, so I could have a better response.
 
Layne said:
I guess it's the minerals or something.
I just remember asking the same question, and getting several responses that the water was not suitable.
I guess I should have remembered why, so I could have a better response.
Click to expand...

Hopefully someone will chime in that knows the answer.

I'm interested in how it would be different than what we are doing with water heater elements in our HLTs?

Ed
 
It depends on the water you are using. If you have high calcium or iron or other undesireables in your water they can accumulate in your household water heater and give slightly higher concentrations than the cold tap.

Personally, I haven't messed with testing/treating my water. I brew with softened well water that I know isn't perfect, but neither is the rest of my process.
 
Ohio-Ed said:
Hopefully someone will chime in that knows the answer.

I'm interested in how it would be different than what we are doing with water heater elements in our HLTs?

Ed
Click to expand...

I think the argument goes something like this: That water has been sitting around hot in the tank for a long time, maybe as much as a day. It would have had plenty of time to leach out bad stuff, like led and other things, from the tank and from the hot water pipes. I suppose there could be bacterial infection as well, I don't know.

I have tasted hot water from the tap and I think I can pick up a mineral undertone. I suppose different installations will have different results.
 
I've looked over this thread many times, and in fact built a nice system nearly identical to it. Alas, my element has burnt out after a few months. I had bought it from Lowe's, so who knows if it was low density, but it seemed to do fine without scorching. My question today is what should I replace it with? Does anyone know of a low density 2000W 120V element?
 
I use the 1500W LD element from Plumbingsupply.com. It works fine.
 
Ohio-Ed said:
Hopefully someone will chime in that knows the answer.

I'm interested in how it would be different than what we are doing with water heater elements in our HLTs?

Ed
Click to expand...

According to the people who installed my water conditioning system the hot water from the water heater might have a number of problems.

1. Excess aluminum or magnesium from the anode. If your water is reactive in any way it will contain minerals from the anode that were dissolved by electrolysis to prevent corrosion of the tank and fittings.

2. Hot water tanks quite often have sulfur reducing bacteria as it is a good environment for them.

3. Most minerals concentrate near the bottom of the water heater, changing the entire mineral balance. This may be good or bad, depending upon what beer you are making.

As a test, pour a glass of water from the cold tap, one from the hot tap and one from the drain on the hot water tank. Cover them and let stand a couple of hours. Look for dissolved gas coming out of suspension. Then taste compare the three samples. Make up your own mind as to which samples are acceptable to you for brewing. Personally I can taste quite a difference and choose to use only cold water in my brewing.
 
ChuckO said:
According to the people who installed my water conditioning system the hot water from the water heater might have a number of problems.

1. Excess aluminum or magnesium from the anode. If your water is reactive in any way it will contain minerals from the anode that were dissolved by electrolysis to prevent corrosion of the tank and fittings.

2. Hot water tanks quite often have sulfur reducing bacteria as it is a good environment for them.

3. Most minerals concentrate near the bottom of the water heater, changing the entire mineral balance. This may be good or bad, depending upon what beer you are making.

As a test, pour a glass of water from the cold tap, one from the hot tap and one from the drain on the hot water tank. Cover them and let stand a couple of hours. Look for dissolved gas coming out of suspension. Then taste compare the three samples. Make up your own mind as to which samples are acceptable to you for brewing. Personally I can taste quite a difference and choose to use only cold water in my brewing.
Click to expand...

All makes sense. Sorry for dragging this thread so far :off:

This is a great thread so I suggest we try to get it back on track.

Thanks for all the replys. Sorry for the diversion Guy.

Ed
 
Well, I just ordered the Tri Clover RIMS tube from Brewershardware. Been wanting to go RIMS for a while. I ordered a Stand from Marcus at Brewersequipment two weeks ago, and figured I should go "all out." I was going to build the one from this thread, but knew in the long run I would want the tri clover!
Does any one use the Tri Clover Tube? It says it has a 3" thermowell. Can anyone suggest a temp sensor?
I read most of this thread, but I am sure I will have more questions to come!
As always, Thanks for any help!
 
Dave258 said:
Well, I just ordered the Tri Clover RIMS tube from Brewershardware. Been wanting to go RIMS for a while. I ordered a Stand from Marcus at Brewersequipment two weeks ago, and figured I should go "all out." I was going to build the one from this thread, but knew in the long run I would want the tri clover!
Does any one use the Tri Clover Tube? It says it has a 3" thermowell. Can anyone suggest a temp sensor?
I read most of this thread, but I am sure I will have more questions to come!
As always, Thanks for any help!
Click to expand...

I have Derrin's Tri-Clove RIMs tube. I have used it on one brew and it worked flawlessly. The temp sensor you use will depend on the controller you are using. What controller are you using / planning to use?

Ed
 
Ohio-Ed said:
I have Derrin's Tri-Clove RIMs tube. I have used it on one brew and it worked flawlessly. The temp sensor you use will depend on the controller you are using. What controller are you using / planning to use?

Ed
Click to expand...

I thought it was you who had one. I saw your other for sale and missed it by a day. Not sure what I am going to use yet. Haven't done much as far as planning. I am assuming you are taliking a PID? Originally I was going to follow the parts list by Sawdustguy. Will that PID and SSR setup work? I am a bit "green" on this. I am no electrician, but do plenty of things around the house.
Do you mind sharing how you have yours set up?
 
Dave258 said:
I thought it was you who had one. I saw your other for sale and missed it by a day. Not sure what I am going to use yet. Haven't done much as far as planning. I am assuming you are taliking a PID? Originally I was going to follow the parts list by Sawdustguy. Will that PID and SSR setup work? I am a bit "green" on this. I am no electrician, but do plenty of things around the house.
Do you mind sharing how you have yours set up?
Click to expand...

The PID & SSR will work fine. You will need to do a little checking on the temp probe/sensor and the "thermowell" on your RIM's tube. You just need to ensure the probe will fit inside the thermowell.

My setup is a bit different. I use a BCS-460 controller in place of a PID. The BCS uses a different temp sensor than a PID, but other than that, it is very similar.

Ed
 
I also use one of Derrin's RIMS tubes. As Ohio Ed says, it's perfect. I bought the 4" thermocouple with 1/2" NPT threads from Auber. I use a PID. Derrin switched out the 1/4" tri-clover for a 1/2" tri-clover no questions asked. I like that.
 
Reelale said:
I also use one of Derrin's RIMS tubes. As Ohio Ed says, it's perfect. I bought the 4" thermocouple with 1/2" NPT threads from Auber. I use a PID. Derrin switched out the 1/4" tri-clover for a 1/2" tri-clover no questions asked. I like that.
Click to expand...

That is just what I was comming to ask. After reading up on it more, with the thermowell, I guess I can use a Johnson or Love controller. I was going to ask you guys if there is any benifit to this, or if I should ask Derrin to change the fitting to use a thermocouple and PID.
I guess you answered before I got to ask.
 
The ranco and Johnson controllers are on/off switches. They don't behave the same as PID, when they reach the setpoint they turn off. This can can an overshoot. Simply put, the PID can be configured in a manner to adjust output as it nears the setpoint lessening the chance of overshoot and maintain temps more accurately. Because it switches so frequently you'll need a solid state relay to handle that.
 
Dave258 said:
That is just what I was comming to ask. After reading up on it more, with the thermowell, I guess I can use a Johnson or Love controller. I was going to ask you guys if there is any benifit to this, or if I should ask Derrin to change the fitting to use a thermocouple and PID.
I guess you answered before I got to ask.
Click to expand...

A Johnson or Love controler are not PID's, they are fairly simple on off thermostats. They will not give you the accuracy a PID will. They work fine for a keezer or fermentation chamber because they have a 2-3 degree swing and run for several minutes, then shut down for several minutes. A PID will very rapidly "pulse" the element on and off to fine tune the temerature and it will learn (through AutoTune), how much "on time" is required.

Ed
 
pickles said:
The ranco and Johnson controllers are on/off switches. They don't behave the same as PID, when they reach the setpoint they turn off. This can can an overshoot. Simply put, the PID can be configured in a manner to adjust output as it nears the setpoint lessening the chance of overshoot and maintain temps more accurately. Because it switches so frequently you'll need a solid state relay to handle that.
Click to expand...

Ohio-Ed said:
A Johnson or Love controler are not PID's, they are fairly simple on off thermostats. They will not give you the accuracy a PID will. They work fine for a keezer or fermentation chamber because they have a 2-3 degree swing and run for several minutes, then shut down for several minutes. A PID will very rapidly "pulse" the element on and off to fine tune the temerature and it will learn (through AutoTune), how much "on time" is required.

Ed
Click to expand...

Thanks guys. I already emailed asking Derrin to change out the fitting. I will now look into PIDs, SSRs and thermocouples.
 
RonRock said:
Which one of you to believe? LOL:D
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Yea, I gotta learn to ignore the work falling down around me and pay more attention to HBT. Had I been a little quicker, maybe we wouldn't have both answered. But at least I think we both said the same thing ;)

Ed
 
Ohio-Ed said:
Yea, I gotta learn to ignore the work falling down around me and pay more attention to HBT. Had I been a little quicker, maybe we wouldn't have both answered. But at least I think we both said the same thing ;)

Ed
Click to expand...

No no! You're way off! :)
 
That is one of the best things about this site! So many knowledgeable people ready to answer questions and help!
 
Dave258 said:
That is one of the best things about this site! So many knowledgeable people ready to answer questions and help!
Click to expand...

One thing I did see in the responses... Reelale said he used a thermocouple.

Thermocouples will work fine, but thermocouples use special wire. Splices and connectors require special attention. You might want to look into RTD's which are not as sensitive to changes to the wire. Auber PID's should support either.

Ed
 
Ohio-Ed said:
One thing I did see in the responses... Reelale said he used a thermocouple.

Thermocouples will work fine, but thermocouples use special wire. Splices and connectors require special attention. You might want to look into RTD's which are not as sensitive to changes to the wire. Auber PID's should support either.

Ed
Click to expand...

Yep, that's a great point. In retrospect, I probably should have gone with an RTD for ease of disconnects. Although with the lead on the one from Auber, it's a single run to the control box with enough slack to remove from the RIMS tube for periodic cleaning. And I also noticed that Auber sells the matched-wire jacks for Type J and K thermocouples. I do believe that RTD to be a tad more precise, but probably not noticeable in our application.
 
Ok guys, I have been thinking about this all night. I want to start ordering things so that everything is here by the time my stand and RIMS tube arrive.
I have been checking out Auberins.com, and think I am going to go with the 1/4 DIN PID, with a 25A SSR and heat sink. This Thermocouple.
Now in my control box, I want to have the PID and guts for the RIMS, and a switch for my pump. In another thread I saw someone just bought a heavy duty extension cord and cut it using half for wiring, and the other half as the cord/plug. Is that sufficient?
Would you just run the cord through the box, or would you use another recepticle to plug in the external cord?
Would you hard wire the pump in the box, or have a seperate outlet wired to the pump switch at the bottom of the box to plug the cord for the pump in.
Do I need to look for anything special in switches?
I guess the most important question first is can I run all this off of a regular 120V outlet? I was planning on getting a 120V 1500w LD element. Is ULD really any better? The elements are twice the price.
Is there anything else anyone can recommend I get??
Thanks
 
Your plan sounds good, a heavy extension cord should be able to handle the load of a pump and a 1500w element. I'd bring power to the box and then have two outlets on the box. One powered by the SSR for the element, and one powered by a switch for the pump. You can get weatherproof covers for standard household rocker switches. The LWD will work just fine, ULWD is a waste of money. I'd get the RTD probes over a thermocouple, much more accurate and precise.
 
2b5ec028.jpg


I bought a 12-3AWG outdoor cable. Wired it to a terminal block in the box and put a plug on the other end. I Cost me a bout $8 for the cord and another $10 for the plug and I have a 20 amp cord on my box.

Do you have a enclosure? I bought the metal enclosure from Auber with the pre-cut square hole for the PID. For $28 it was a pretty nice deal. I also found the outlets a challenge to cut out in a metal box. I wasn't able to get a 1 1/2" hole saw to bite. Some say a 1 3/8" Unibit will work. I wound up using my 1 1/8" unibit and a kind of rotary rasp tool.

Check out THIS THREAD if you need some more ideas for mounting the receptacles.

Oh, and if you do use an RTD, you'll have to change the PID settings as it's default is a thermcouple. Wasted some time before I figured this out.

Good luck. I love my RIMS. Kept my last mash within .1 degree of set temp.

cc985ad7.jpg
 
After reading through this thread I finally decided to pull the trigger and build a RIMS. This will be a great addition to my brewery and help me make better beer.

The inspiration and education provided here are very helpful.

Pictures to be posted soon.
 

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