Saflager S-23

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DaveGEsq

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Anyone ever use this dry yeast? I pitched it at 70 F but immediately took my primary down to the cellar (about 51 F). No signs of fermentation yet (it's been 18 hours). Think it needs to get started fermenting at 70 before I move it to cooler climes?
 
Fermentation can take 24 to 72hrs Be patient.

You are correct though you should get fermentation going at room temp.
Then drop temp. down to optimal temp. for the yeast.
 
Thanks, drhook. I realize fermentation can take a bit. But my experience with the other Saf yeasts I've used (about 6 batches) is an immediate, vigorous fermentation. But I will move it back upstairs until I see some results.
 
We noticed Saflager S-23 tends to be a little slower than either S-04 or S-05. My brother pitched it in a peppercorn rye he brewed on tuesday and it took a couple days to start up. To my understand, it's just a fairly high-temp lager yeast, so that may be why it tends to act differently. IIRC, 51° was around the lower end of the temperature range. It might be fine there, but it probably wouldn't hurt to move it up to 60° or so, either. Either way, it will probably just be slower in general than S-05 or S-04. My brother fermented right around 60° and it just took a little while to get going. At pitch +12 he was still only getting about a bubble every 3-4 seconds, where S-05 would give 3-4 per second by then.
 
djfriesen said:
We noticed Saflager S-23 tends to be a little slower than either S-04 or S-05. My brother pitched it in a peppercorn rye he brewed on tuesday and it took a couple days to start up. To my understand, it's just a fairly high-temp lager yeast, so that may be why it tends to act differently. IIRC, 51° was around the lower end of the temperature range. It might be fine there, but it probably wouldn't hurt to move it up to 60° or so, either. Either way, it will probably just be slower in general than S-05 or S-04. My brother fermented right around 60° and it just took a little while to get going. At pitch +12 he was still only getting about a bubble every 3-4 seconds, where S-05 would give 3-4 per second by then.

Awesome. Thanks, dj.
 
how much yeast did you pitch into what volume of wort? i pitch 2 packets of into 5 gallons and it's going within 12hrs at 48-50 degrees.
 
eastoak said:
how much yeast did you pitch into what volume of wort? i pitch 2 packets of into 5 gallons and it's going within 12hrs at 48-50 degrees.

I pitch one packet to 5 gal (per the instructions). But I jumped on the website and the lagering instructions are unclear.
 
it will still work with one but for lagers more yeast is better. i ferment at 48 until i get near final gravity then drop it into the 30's. if you detect diacetyl bring it up to 60 degrees for a couple of days then drop to the 30's for lagering. more yeast = little to no diacetyl.
 
Dave give it 36hrs, If you don't see any activity take a gravity reading.
This will tell you if anything is going on.
The airlock is not allways a true sign of fermentation.
 
eastoak said:
it will still work with one but for lagers more yeast is better. i ferment at 48 until i get near final gravity then drop it into the 30's. if you detect diacetyl bring it up to 60 degrees for a couple of days then drop to the 30's for lagering. more yeast = little to no diacetyl.

Wow! 30's? And the yeast performs? The package recommends 51-59, so i was trying to keep it in there. I will give it 36 hours (thanks dr!) and see what she does!
 
It's been 26 hours and we have bubbling (about 40 secs apart)! The kreusen is starting to build. Gentlemen, we have lift off! I'm going to let it go a couple days and move it back to slightly colder storage. Ps, current temp is 55.
 
There you go!!
I've been there too, Had some dry yeast once
take all most 3 days before it started fermenting.

Hope it comes out good.

Tim
 
I've never used liquid yeast. But I think that's my next challenge. Thanks for all your help.
 
Wow! 30's? And the yeast performs? The package recommends 51-59, so i was trying to keep it in there. I will give it 36 hours (thanks dr!) and see what she does!

In a commercial setting I have ramped S23 down from my initial ferm temp of 55F to 35F (pitched at 65 and brought to 55 when activity started), over the course of four days. It continued to work well at that point. This was a doppelbock that was around 18Plato... grain bill was 75/25 Munich 10 to 2 row pale. once the ferment was complete (about 2 1/2 weeks IIRC) I dropped it further to 33F and there it stayed for 8 weeks. (No diacetyl rest, never have used it) Resulting beer was very clean and smooth... I usually would start pitch it at 65, take it to 55 with activity and bring it down to 45 to finish with other beers.
 
Wow! 30's? And the yeast performs? The package recommends 51-59, so i was trying to keep it in there. I will give it 36 hours (thanks dr!) and see what she does!

somebody beat me to it but the drop in temp to the 30's is after your beer is done fermenting.
 
somebody beat me to it but the drop in temp to the 30's is after your beer is done fermenting.

May not have been clear in my post, but I had active ferment at 35F... Pitched at 65, went to 55 when ferm started, then began ramping down 5 degrees per day until I reached 35F. Half the active fermentation was done at 35F. Once activity had ceased (aprox 2 1/2 weeks in) I dropped it further to 33F.
 
I have noticed this yeast sucks b^%#s. It starts slow and tastes like a pina-colada no matter what I did..

Would be interested to hear how your experience turns out.
 
I have noticed this yeast sucks b^%#s. It starts slow and tastes like a pina-colada no matter what I did..

Would be interested to hear how your experience turns out.

I can't imagine what would have caused that. I have been using S23 since it was very first introduced in '98 or '99. Prior to that I used WYeast 2308. I made the switch due to the ease of use in a commercial setting. Since brewing schedules in a pub are directly dependent upon over the bar business, it can sometimes be a little difficult knowing EXACTLY when a tank will be empty, so ordering massive amounts of yeast from WYeast or White Labs could be difficult.

ANYWAY, I have used this yeast both at home and in a pub, fermenting it between 35F and as high at times as 65F (when ambient temp in the house got too high), I have had ZERO issue with any kind of off flavors. Resulting beers have been every bit as clean as 2308... slightly different palate, but every bit as good. I found 2308 to give a soft palate with a slight, pleasant yeastiness to it, not intense at all, but present... S23 gives me a very round maltiness. I have made these styles with S23; Czech Pilsner, Oktoberfest/Marzen, Schwarzbier, Doppelbock (maybe one or two others). Never once an issue with off flavors. So, my question is, what are people doing to make the off flavors happen?
 
I think OP probably under pitched as well. You need a ton of yeast at those low temps to avoid the lag
 
I have noticed this yeast sucks b^%#s. It starts slow and tastes like a pina-colada no matter what I did..

Would be interested to hear how your experience turns out.

I used it on this same beer before and it was killer! I even let primary go for a week at about 65 (so the beer got into the 70's for sure), before putting in the 50s for lagering. The beer was crystal clear and delicious. I wanted a crisp, hoppy lager. This yeast nailed it.
 
I can't imagine what would have caused that. I have been using S23 since it was very first introduced in '98 or '99. Prior to that I used WYeast 2308. I made the switch due to the ease of use in a commercial setting. Since brewing schedules in a pub are directly dependent upon over the bar business, it can sometimes be a little difficult knowing EXACTLY when a tank will be empty, so ordering massive amounts of yeast from WYeast or White Labs could be difficult.

ANYWAY, I have used this yeast both at home and in a pub, fermenting it between 35F and as high at times as 65F (when ambient temp in the house got too high), I have had ZERO issue with any kind of off flavors. Resulting beers have been every bit as clean as 2308... slightly different palate, but every bit as good. I found 2308 to give a soft palate with a slight, pleasant yeastiness to it, not intense at all, but present... S23 gives me a very round maltiness. I have made these styles with S23; Czech Pilsner, Oktoberfest/Marzen, Schwarzbier, Doppelbock (maybe one or two others). Never once an issue with off flavors. So, my question is, what are people doing to make the off flavors happen?

Great question that I have to ask myself all the time (since I'm pretty new to HB). I've done two things: changed to distilled water and changed sanitizer (from Iodophor to Starsan). We'll see what works!

But for the yeast I think it is critical to stay within the recommended temperature range until frementation slows way down. The yeast is designed to do its best work in those temps, so let it.
 
I am not a fan of this yeast at all. I prefer to use WLP-830 for my lagers. This yeast can work well one time and the next gives crap.
 
You can reuse dry yeast. Its not dry anymore after your first pitch. I wasn't reusing it persay though. I used it 3 times and had three different results with 3 different packets.
 
DaveGEsq said:
I used it on this same beer before and it was killer! I even let primary go for a week at about 65 (so the beer got into the 70's for sure), before putting in the 50s for lagering. The beer was crystal clear and delicious. I wanted a crisp, hoppy lager. This yeast nailed it.

I've tasted a couple different Oktoberfest brewed from the same exact kit that used this yeast. The one I brewed was fermented at 50, mu brother in laws at 65. They were completely different beers when finished. His was a big fruit/ester bomb. Mine
Was more clean and lager like

To the OP, if you want lager type beer ferment in the low 50's. It will not be the same if you try it in the 60s
 
Great question that I have to ask myself all the time (since I'm pretty new to HB). I've done two things: changed to distilled water and changed sanitizer (from Iodophor to Starsan). We'll see what works!

But for the yeast I think it is critical to stay within the recommended temperature range until frementation slows way down. The yeast is designed to do its best work in those temps, so let it.

Remember, yeast isn't "designed", it is a living organism. Frankly, I don't know how Fermentis came up with the idea that it created esters when fermented cold. The vast majority of the time I have used this yeast, I fermented it around 45... and as I said have gone as low as 35 for for the bulk of fermentation. It made a clean beer every time. I have yet to taste anyone else's beer that was screwed up. I seriously do not know what people are doing to it that makes it act funny. I am actually tempted to experiment and TRY to get it to make "fruit punch" for me.

Maybe the key is to ramp it down slowly from pitching temp to cold, I don't know. Logically, saying that a yeast ferments cleaner at warm temps than cold simply doesn't make sense. Not to say that it can't be clean warm, but realistically it should be cleaner cold. Ehh, whatever... it does exactly what I need it to do, using the methods I use, both at home and in a production setting, why bother futzing with it?
 
This yeast can work well one time and the next gives crap.

Another odd statement that I son't understand, I have gone several generations with S23 in a commercial setting (where consistency is paramount) and had fantastic results.
 
Another odd statement that I son't understand, I have gone several generations with S23 in a commercial setting (where consistency is paramount) and had fantastic results.

He has to be doing something wrong, and frankly when people post those meaningless posts it doesn't help new brewers and shy's them away from perfectly good yeast. :confused:
 
He has to be doing something wrong, and frankly when people post those meaningless posts it doesn't help new brewers and shy's them away from perfectly good yeast. :confused:

I agree completely... The mass of information on the net is both a blessing and a curse...
 
I have gone down and my airlock has popped out of my fermenter twice in the last two hrs. I just made a mash extract recipe using Muntons Gold Continental Pilsner (OG 1058) and pitched with a single packet of S23. Its only been in the fermenter 5 hrs. I am fermenting 5gal in a 6.5 gal pail. I used some pilnser malt, cara-pils along with some willamette and hallertauer hops. I tossed some kent golding leaf in for the last 5 min on a whim. I also tossed in another 1.3 kg bucket of muntons lme as my lhbs just got it on Fri.

I let a little water out of the airlock, it was just a little over the max. Maybe that will help.

Its currently sitting at 12C

The saflager s23 is an 11G packet so I am not sure if the OP under pitched. Someone with a better understanding of Lager yeast could chime in. But that volume of such a good yeast should hold it's own in the OPs batch.

I hope my airlock is ok...
 
He has to be doing something wrong, and frankly when people post those meaningless posts it doesn't help new brewers and shy's them away from perfectly good yeast. :confused:

And frankly, meaningless replies are just as misguiding.

In case anyone cares, there are numerous posts on this yeast and the difficulties people have with it. The consensus that I found upon researching is that many have the same, very high ester level results that I have had.

If I AM doing something wrong, I would love to try it again. The savings of dry vs liquid are too big to be ignored. The only problem is, I have tried this yeast 4-5 times and trouble shot the crap out of it. The only variable I have not changed is a different supplier. Perhaps my suppliers yeast handling are no good to this stuff...

I have made almost every style of beer, with very good results brewing all grain. I have painstakingly ironed out all my issues, and when an issue does pop up post ferment - I know exactly what caused it from experience and good note taking. With all my tries on this yeast, all things being equal - the yeast was the only problem. I tried many different variations. Every one of my lagers using various other lager yeasts has been fantastic!

Great to hear from some of the more meaningful posts that others had VERY good results. I am getting optimistic, and may even try this east again. Perhaps on a low gravity quarter batch so I do not need to dump as much... in case things go like they always have for me :)
 
wailingguitar said:
Remember, yeast isn't "designed", it is a living organism. Frankly, I don't know how Fermentis came up with the idea that it created esters when fermented cold. The vast majority of the time I have used this yeast, I fermented it around 45... and as I said have gone as low as 35 for for the bulk of fermentation. It made a clean beer every time. I have yet to taste anyone else's beer that was screwed up. I seriously do not know what people are doing to it that makes it act funny. I am actually tempted to experiment and TRY to get it to make "fruit punch" for me.

Maybe the key is to ramp it down slowly from pitching temp to cold, I don't know. Logically, saying that a yeast ferments cleaner at warm temps than cold simply doesn't make sense. Not to say that it can't be clean warm, but realistically it should be cleaner cold. Ehh, whatever... it does exactly what I need it to do, using the methods I use, both at home and in a production setting, why bother futzing with it?

Perhaps "designed" was a poor choice of words. But certainly the yeast is tested and selected for its ability to perform a certain way under very specific conditions. Maybe "selected" is better. Either way, the "manufacturer" has produced "instructions" that recommend a temperature range between 51 and 59. I'm keeping it between the goal posts and we'll see what happens.
 
Less than 24 hrs into the fermentation process and my s23 is going absolutely bonkers in the fermenter. It's in my cold storage room at 12C. This is by far the quickest of the three Lager yeasts I have used in this exact same room, exact same process, exact same style of beer (mash extract). I will be curious to see what the end result in. So far, I am very impressed with the quick activity.

I did not make a starter, I never have. Just aerated the crap out of the wort and dry pitched. I let it sit 10 min on the surface and then I gently stirred it into the wort.

Sucks about people having problems with this yeast. So far it gets two thumbs up here.
 
It's been five full days and fermentation is going strong. The carboy-ambient temp is holding at 50F. Fermentation is steady, though less torpid than 2 days ago. This weekend I will be trying my first liquid yeast (WL 007)! I am going to brew up a starter tonight. If any of y'all have any yeast starter or liquid yeast pitching tips to share, I'm all ears!
 
This weekend I will be trying my first liquid yeast (WL 007)! I am going to brew up a starter tonight. If any of y'all have any yeast starter or liquid yeast pitching tips to share, I'm all ears!

When using the White Labs vials, open the cap very slowly - sometimes pressure builds up in there which will cause the contents to gush out, so just hold the vial upright and crack the cap open just enough to release pressure.
 
DeafSmith said:
When using the White Labs vials, open the cap very slowly - sometimes pressure builds up in there which will cause the contents to gush out, so just hold the vial upright and crack the cap open just enough to release pressure.

Thanks for the tip. I cleaned and sanitized an old growler, boiled a qt of water, stirred in 1 cup DME, gently boiled for 10 min, cooled, put in growler, shook for 2 min, added ENTIRE yeast vile (had to beat on it to get it all out), shook for another 2 min, sealed with sanitized airlock and we got bubbles this morning! I can't believe it worked!
 

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