Barrels for Sours and Aged Ales

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ThatGuyRyan

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So I would like to step it up and get two barrels in my system. One for Sours only and the other for just ageing stouts and such. I can brew up to 13 gallon batches at this point on my main system but still have my original 6 gallon setup if needed.

I was thinking about a used 10 gallon Whiskey Barrel for the beer and a new 13 gallon American Oak for the sours. My concern with the used barrels is the life span or leaking issues and with the new barrel would American Oak be too strong for long term ageing where a French Oak barrel would be better?
And are the sizes ok or should I just go for 2 new 13 gallons or larger?

Any tips, advise or ideas would be appreciated.

Cheers~! :mug:

Ryan
 
I got a 3 gallon barrel from these guys once. It was bad-ass, it had aged a Rye Whisky and made a fantastic oak stout. Their customer service was also good.

The trick is that if you get a barrel and you don't want it to go south, you've always got to keep beer in it. When my beer was done, i drained it, rinsed it with whisky as I didn't want to put iodine or anything in there and let it dry. By my next batch it was sour. The sour was delightful for sour, but I didn't want a sour stout and ended up with one.

It was a better oak flavor than I had gotten with chips in the past, but the chips are the same thing, they just work a little bit differently.

Not to mention, 3 gallon barrel was 90$ with shipping for one good batch and then to go sour, oak chips are 3$ for a half pound that'll surely oak a beer.

In summation, it's easy to get a sour barrel, its alot of time an maintenance to keep a barrel and damn near impossible to empty it, not immediately refill it and keep it from going sour.

So the flavors are great and its pretty cool to say your beer was aged in an oak barrel but in the end for me it was more trouble than it was worth.

http://stores.intuitwebsites.com/TuthilltownSpirits/-strse-Barrels/Categories.bok
 
One problem I think you'd run into with the barrel for the sours is the fact that it's new oak. If you put a sour beer into a new barrel, it would come out insanely oaky by the time the fermentation had completed.

Another thing I have heard is that as long as you keep beer in the barrels, leaking usually isn't a problem as the staves remain swelled. You may also want to remember to brew a bit extra of the beer to top off the barrel because with that much surface to beer interface you're going to get a lot of evaporation.
 
cyraxx said:
One problem I think you'd run into with the barrel for the sours is the fact that it's new oak. If you put a sour beer into a new barrel, it would come out insanely oaky by the time the fermentation had completed.

Another thing I have heard is that as long as you keep beer in the barrels, leaking usually isn't a problem as the staves remain swelled. You may also want to remember to brew a bit extra of the beer to top off the barrel because with that much surface to beer interface you're going to get a lot of evaporation.
Click to expand...

Pretty sure you AGE beer in the barrels, not ferment in them...

I hope to be able to get some barrels to age some home brew in once I've moved. I'm also thinking of making rumbullion, so maybe getting a barrel that had rum aged in it would be a good option... Once I get a recipe worked out, it's just a matter of getting it to ferment out fully, then age it for some time, then bottle it... I am planning on making it strong (18%+ ABV) so, it will need time to age out the harshness. :D 100% legal to home brew :rockin:
 
Many traditional sour beers are fermented in barrels so that's what I was commenting on, I didn't make myself clear. Obviously contact time won't be a problem if the beer the barrel is merely for aging. If that is his purpose, I can see why he'd use the whiskey barrel to age, but not why he couldn't just use chips for the sours. Are there any advantages to aging in an oak barrel rather than using chips?
 
cyraxx said:
One problem I think you'd run into with the barrel for the sours is the fact that it's new oak. If you put a sour beer into a new barrel, it would come out insanely oaky by the time the fermentation had completed.

Another thing I have heard is that as long as you keep beer in the barrels, leaking usually isn't a problem as the staves remain swelled. You may also want to remember to brew a bit extra of the beer to top off the barrel because with that much surface to beer interface you're going to get a lot of evaporation.
Click to expand...

Yea I wouldn’t be fermenting in them they would be for ageing but with the sour yeast cultures added for the sour of course. And using the new barrel for the sour is my biggest concern since it will need to age 9-12 months and I don’t want it too oaky. So I am trying to figure out what everyone else does.
 
TheBaconator said:
I got a 3 gallon barrel from these guys once. It was bad-ass, it had aged a Rye Whisky and made a fantastic oak stout. Their customer service was also good.

The trick is that if you get a barrel and you don't want it to go south, you've always got to keep beer in it. When my beer was done, i drained it, rinsed it with whisky as I didn't want to put iodine or anything in there and let it dry. By my next batch it was sour. The sour was delightful for sour, but I didn't want a sour stout and ended up with one.

It was a better oak flavor than I had gotten with chips in the past, but the chips are the same thing, they just work a little bit differently.

Not to mention, 3 gallon barrel was 90$ with shipping for one good batch and then to go sour, oak chips are 3$ for a half pound that'll surely oak a beer.

In summation, it's easy to get a sour barrel, its alot of time an maintenance to keep a barrel and damn near impossible to empty it, not immediately refill it and keep it from going sour.

So the flavors are great and its pretty cool to say your beer was aged in an oak barrel but in the end for me it was more trouble than it was worth.

http://stores.intuitwebsites.com/TuthilltownSpirits/-strse-Barrels/Categories.bok
Click to expand...

Thats the site I was looking at for the used barrel. They do look good and the price is not bad at all. :tank:
 
**Are there any advantages to aging in an oak barrel rather than using chips?**

It just gives you different flavors. Barrels aren't completely airtight so that allows for just the slightest bit of oxidation, which in turn produces flavor profiles that you can't get in carboys.

This is also true of the brett that you get in a barrel. You can use a regular yeast, age in a barrel and get great sour flavor from the natural wild yeasts in your area and the barrel. In that way you end up with something no one else can exactly replicate.

The downside is that its hard to control, you don't know how much air is getting in there, so maybe 2 months aging is perfect but 4 gets gross. Same with the brett. Because the wild yeasts will continue to grow and change in the barrel and you can't sanitize a barrel, you can't control them. So it's not like you can just add a smaller amount of brett and get a less sour beer. You'll have to get used to the kind of sourness your barrel produces and control it via time and the amount of fermentables left in the beer.

So barrels are certainly cool and they have their place, it was just alot to keep up with and hard to plan for.
 
For the sour, I would use chips, cubes, or spirals... I'd save the barrel for something monumental like a high ABV barleywine that you want to age in oak for 3-6 months before you bottle it up (or keg it)...

From what I've heard, once you use something for a sour brew, you can't use it for anything else. With barrels, you also want to keep them wet, so they don't dry out on you. I know of people that pour the alcohol (or the same type) into them, then seal them up in large plastic bags when not in use. I would store them someplace cool too (like a basement/cellar) until you want to use them.

With all the other oak options though, you might want to use one of those before a barrel... You can get the staves from barrels to use, if you wish... Just get the right toast level and use it. I would also suggest experimenting on some other brews before you go to age the big boy. That way, you have a better idea about how long extraction takes, as well as how much oak to use. I'm sure you'll only get so much from chips and such. No idea how much from a barrel used once you will get...
 
ThatGuyRyan said:
Yea I wouldn’t be fermenting in them they would be for ageing but with the sour yeast cultures added for the sour of course. And using the new barrel for the sour is my biggest concern since it will need to age 9-12 months and I don’t want it too oaky. So I am trying to figure out what everyone else does.
Click to expand...
Okay, my point still stands that if it's aged for any period of time on new oak, it will get too oaky imo. If you could find a used wine barrel then it wouldn't have nearly as much oak flavor, and would add another layer of complexity to your beer. That might not be what you're looking for, however.

TheBaconator said:
**Are there any advantages to aging in an oak barrel rather than using chips?**

It just gives you different flavors. Barrels aren't completely airtight so that allows for just the slightest bit of oxidation, which in turn produces flavor profiles that you can't get in carboys.

This is also true of the brett that you get in a barrel. You can use a regular yeast, age in a barrel and get great sour flavor from the natural wild yeasts in your area and the barrel. In that way you end up with something no one else can exactly replicate.

The downside is that its hard to control, you don't know how much air is getting in there, so maybe 2 months aging is perfect but 4 gets gross. Same with the brett. Because the wild yeasts will continue to grow and change in the barrel and you can't sanitize a barrel, you can't control them. So it's not like you can just add a smaller amount of brett and get a less sour beer. You'll have to get used to the kind of sourness your barrel produces and control it via time and the amount of fermentables left in the beer.

So barrels are certainly cool and they have their place, it was just alot to keep up with and hard to plan for.
Click to expand...
Okay, that's pretty much what I thought the differences were. My response was predicated on the fact that the contact time on the new oak would have to be about a week, and I wasn't sure how much oxidation/"barrel character" he would get out of it.
 
I have used oak chips before with success but have not used the spirals and the sour barrel would be for sours only. I love the sours and so does the gang and I don’t want to tie up 2 indefinitely so that’s why I want to do the barrel. Not to mention they will be B-Day gifts so a few free barrels for me to play with cant be bad I am just trying to pick the proper ones:D
 
cyraxx said:
Okay, my point still stands that if it's aged for any period of time on new oak, it will get too oaky imo. If you could find a used wine barrel then it wouldn't have nearly as much oak flavor, and would add another layer of complexity to your beer. That might not be what you're looking for, however.
Click to expand...

Thats what I am afraid of with the new barrel is that it will be overpowering. I guess I could always put a batch or two of stouts or something in it for a week or two to break it in and test the oakyness?
 
I'm pretty sure the barrels posted on the other site were used once for spirits. So it's not virgin oak there. Yup, just confirmed it from their site..

"Our barrels have been used to age our fine artisanal spirits including Bourbon, Rye and Single Malt Whiskeys and Rum. Built of Charred American White Oak in the traditional style; suitable for aging home-made Wines, Beers and Spirits..."

No idea how fast you'll get the character from the barrel into your brew though. You might want to reach out to them and find out before investing. If you get a virgin barrel, then you'll need to watch it more closely. Especially smaller ones.
 
Yeah the oak beers that I have made, I sampled a few times along the way. I have a 3 gallon barrel so I used a sanitized turkey baster, but a wine thief works on the big ones. Just sample it once a week or so until you get it where you want it. I'd go a little bit more oakey than you actually want as well, the oak flavor will subside over time.

They do have good customer service though, I emailed them with a few questions and they emailed back good responses. So it never hurts to ask.
 
I have a 20L barrel that I age beers in, I keep it wet between beers, keep it corked up as well, thus far there has been no souring of my beers that were in the barrel. I use citric acid and sodium metabisulphite to sanitize the barrel before each use. no issues keeping the barrel fresh, my issue is keeping it swelled, AZ climate tends to dry things out fast.
 
I also have a barrel, it's a 55 gallon one we procured from our local distillery. Distilleries, if you have one near you, are a great resource for getting barrels. We're on our second barrel, haven't had any issues with souring, but the barrel flavor does seem to dissipate after 3 runs (it also seems to increase in seepage to uncomfortable levels). We do not let ours go empty. When it's time to take the beer out, there is another one ready to go in immediately. We don't rinse or do anything to the barrel between batches so we have tried to step up with beers that compliment each other. The current barrel has a Wee Heavy and an English Barleywine will be going in next. The beers typically stay in the barrel 8 - 12 months.

I have also used oak chips and cubes and think they do a good job of also getting oak character into your beer if that's what your after. The barrels are fun and look cool, but they are certainly more effort than using chips or cubes.
 

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