Better than Apfelwein...

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Airtight

Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2007
Messages
14
Reaction score
1
Location
Oregon
Hey everyone,

After reading the post "Man, I love Apfelwein" I decided I'd try it out.

So far I've made 35 gallons of cider. I used the following yeasts and they are in order from best to worst.

1. Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan Weizen Yeast
The best by far, super tasty with a great, almost tropical fruit flavor and aroma.

2. Wyeast 3056 Bavarian Wheat Yeast
Somewhat similar to 3068. Very tasty and dry.

3. Red Star Montrachet
Extremely dry (as it should be) and smooth but lacking flavor. I made two batches with this yeast.

4. Wyeast 4766 Cider
I was suprised how mediocre this yeast was considering its an actual cider yeast. Rather plain in all aspects.

5. Wyeast 1275 Thames Valley Ale Yeast
This wasn't very good, definitely not worth doing again. Too yeasty with a barn like quality.

6. Red Star Cote Des Blancs
Insanely buttery. I even gave it a diacetyl rest but I'm not sure if that does anything with apple juice. I aged this one for several months and the butter never left. Almost felt like a slick was left on your mouth after drinking it.

For the wine yeasts I added 2 pounds of sugar and for the beer yeasts I only added 1 pound of sugar. I followed the same procedure with all the batches using Tree Top apple juice. I was very sanitary with everything and I just followed the basic Apfelwein recipe. Both of the wine yeasts were approx. 8.5% ABV and the beer yeasts averaged 7% ABV give or take.

The point of this post is that I was surprised how much better both the Wheat yeasts were compared to the Montrachet yeast. They had better flavor and aroma and finished much sooner than the Montrachet. Everything was kegged and carbonated around 14 PSI at 35-36 degrees F.

Its all gone now but I did bottle one sample of everything and the Wheat Ciders were still the best after a couple months of extra aging in a bottle. The Weizen and Bavarian Ciders were like eating an Apple flavored Jolly Rancher. It was amazing. And interestingly enough the Montrachet exhibited some Jolly Rancher qualities as well, but not nearly as strong as the Wheat yeasts.

Give both of the Wheat yeasts a try. You won't be disappointed. And for the Montrachet yeast be sure to age it for at least 3 months.

Prost!

~Airtight
 
Awesome, thanks for the post. I came to this area to ask if anyone had tryed different yeasts with this recipe! My first batch is still fermenting, I made 5 galls with Montrachet, and a 1 gal experiment with EC1118 champagne. Curious to see how it pans out. Next time I'll try the weisen.
Thanks again,
John

:mug:
 
Thanks so much for the side by side, I've used a couple different yeasts as well, but never was able to drink them simultaneously. For some reason this stuff never seems to sick around long ;)

mike
 
I have yet to make apfelwein but I was planning to in the future. I just started a Hefeweizen last week though with American Hefeweizen Yeast #WLP320. I really want to repitch this yeast into an apfelwein does anyone know what its wyeast equivalent would be and how it would turn out?
 
Interesting. I've always used champagne yeast and had spectacular results. Maybe I'll try the wheat yeast like you recommend next batch.
 
Can you talk about your ability to maintain the target fermentation temperatures for these yeasts. The reason I ask this is that Wheat yeast is more forgiving in high temp situations leading to banana esthers as temps increase (and clove as temps decrease).

I don't doubt that your Apfelwein may taste better (for you). I just want to pinpoint it as a benefit of the yeast characteristics or an off flavor.
 
olllllo said:
Can you talk about your ability to maintain the target fermentation temperatures for these yeasts. The reason I ask this is that Wheat yeast is more forgiving in high temp situations leading to banana esthers as temps increase (and clove as temps decrease).

I don't doubt that your Apfelwein may taste better (for you). I just want to pinpoint it as a benefit of the yeast characteristics or an off flavor.

Sure thing. The Wheat yeasts, Cider and Cote Des Blancs fermented at a constant 70ºF. The Thames and Montrachet fermented at 64ºF.

The characteristics of the beer yeasts don't seem to carry over into cider. Take for example the 3638 Bavarian Wheat. The description reads:

Top cropping hefeweizen yeast with complex flavor and aroma. Balance of banana and bubble gum esters with lichi and apple/plum esters and cloviness. Flocculation - low; apparent attenuation 70-76% (64-75º F, 18-24° C)

There wasn't any banana, bubble gum, plum anything in the cider. The only distinct fruit character (besides apple, duh!) I got from the cider was pineapple and that didn't stand up to cold conditioning for an extended period of time. I think there is a much different interaction between the yeast and apple juice compared to yeast and wort. And the longer the cider ages the more appley it gets.

I'm just going to keep at it trying different yeasts and different temperatures. I'm doing Wyeast German Wheat, Belgian Wheat and Belgian Saison next. Doing the Apfelwein with different yeasts is a lot of fun, its crazy easy and it tastes wonderful.
 
I agree that your experiment sounds cool. Especially since you are only varying one thing (yeast) and all the other things are somewhat constant. Keep us posted.
 
What is EdWorts take on all of this?? I am going to try apfelwein real soon with an ale or belgian yeast. Sounds better to me than a wine or champagne yeast. Guess I would prefer a less dry taste.... Guess we will see.

All personal preference I guess....... Homebrew is about an expierement.
 
Great thread airtight, i've tried the U.K. version of apfelwien (we just call it turbo cider) with a muntons premium yeast, it has left a definite bready twang to it i suppose the same as what you found with wyeast 1275.
I was going to get some proper cider yeast (whitelabs) but im setting up a starter of wyeast 3068 for a hefe this week end and im excited by your findings (i could knock out a quick turbo cider at the same time with the same starter).
Did you wait for the 3068 to flocculate or did you go ahead and drink it cloudy. Did 3068 leave any sweetness or did it finsih dry??
 
Just to add to this post, I did a batch of cider with WLP300 White Labs traditional german hefe yeast, and the flavor was wonderful. I, too, kegged and carbed my cider.

Also a question -- has anyone tried using a sweet mead yeast or other form of low-attenuating yeast to leave a bit more residual sweetness and apple flavor in their cider?
 
delboy said:
Did you wait for the 3068 to flocculate or did you go ahead and drink it cloudy. Did 3068 leave any sweetness or did it finsih dry??

3068 is very slow to flocc. So I drank it cloudy which I think is normal for the Weizen yeast. If i remember correctly it got pretty clear after 3 weeks in the keg.

The FG on my 3068 Weizen batch was 1.003 and it was exactly the same for the 3638 Bavarian. The Cider finished at 1.000. So I would say the wheat yeasts finished "dry" but not "bone dry". Almost any yeast will totally obliterate apple juice.
 
pa-in-utah said:
What is EdWorts take on all of this?? I am going to try apfelwein real soon with an ale or belgian yeast. Sounds better to me than a wine or champagne yeast. Guess I would prefer a less dry taste.... Guess we will see..

I have no problems with experimenting. My recipe makes what I have found to be closest to German Apfelwein (with a 2.5% kicker). That's what I set out to do and I achieved that (folks who've been to the Frankfurt area and have made this know what I mean).

Anything else is something somewhat different than German Apfelwein and falls under a cider category, but if it tastes better for you, then by all means get-r-done. :D

That's the cool thing about home brew. Trying different things to make something that you truely love. I love my apfelwein and it takes me back to Germany when I drink it out of my German Glasses and a German Apfelwein pitcher like this below.

Ebbelwoi_wein.jpg
 
Yeah, I know. :D

I now drink it out of a authentic Apfwein glass which is 0.25L in size.

apfel_04.jpg


Not much bigger than a champagne flute.
 
I am trying it with the Rudsheimer yeast. I am surprised no one else has tried it yet will let everyone know when it is ready.

here is the description from WYeast

4783 Rüdesheimer
Produces distinct Riesling character. Rich flavor, creamy, fruity profile with nice dry finish and a hint of Riesling sweetness in the aftertaste. Rhine Wines, Fruity Ciders, Riesling, Ice Wine.
 
Haha!!! 64 ounces of Filtered Water with Apple Juice Concentrate (no preservatives): $0.99. No limit.

I bought 8, but I can always go back for more... :D
 
EdWort said:
I have no problems with experimenting. My recipe makes what I have found to be closest to German Apfelwein (with a 2.5% kicker). That's what I set out to do and I achieved that (folks who've been to the Frankfurt area and have made this know what I mean).

Anything else is something somewhat different than German Apfelwein and falls under a cider category, but if it tastes better for you, then by all means get-r-done. :D

That's the cool thing about home brew. Trying different things to make something that you truely love. I love my apfelwein and it takes me back to Germany when I drink it out of my German Glasses and a German Apfelwein pitcher like this below.



Thanks EdWort, for coming up with Apfelwein. If you hadn't, I wouldn't be experimenting with different yeasts.

The purpose of my initial post wasnt to bash your Apfelwein recipe. Just for me personally I found something that tastes better and finishes quicker, although it is 1.5% less in alcohol.......having the 8.5% in the Apfelwein is nice....makes you feel like you created a drink with some real substance :drunk:
 
Hmmmm could you pitch some wheat beer on a cider yeast cake made from weizen yeast? I wonder what that would taste like...

(liquid yeast costs $13-4 where I live :( )
 
I have actually been thinking of making a basic extract wiezen as normal, except instead of water use apple cider. I know there's no way that would replicate anything real, but what the heck. Pitch some WLP300 and call it goodness.
 
Tomorrow I bottle the 9 gallons I have already fermented. 5 genuine apfelwien and 4 experimental flavored varieties. I'm going to run out of bottles when I try this idea.
 
Bender said:
Tomorrow I bottle the 9 gallons I have already fermented. 5 genuine apfelwien and 4 experimental flavored varieties. I'm going to run out of bottles when I try this idea.

Sweet! I bet you'll get your bottles back pretty darn quick. :tank:
 
Set up a 20L batch of TC with 500g muscavodo sugar using wyeast 3068 strain as suggested in the first post.
Will report back the results when they are in.
 
Has anyone tried stopping the yeast early with pottasium sorbate like the grape squeezers do if they want a sweet wine.

Im using the 3068 yeast which isn't that flocculant, after hitting the yeast with potassium sorbate do the yeast die or just stall, if they die are they more prone to autolysis and off tastes or would it be fine????

Also i've read in other threads that you should use campden with sorbate to prevent off flavours how much do you need to add???
 
delboy said:
Has anyone tried stopping the yeast early with pottasium sorbate like the grape squeezers do if they want a sweet wine.

Im using the 3068 yeast which isn't that flocculant, after hitting the yeast with potassium sorbate do the yeast die or just stall, if they die are they more prone to autolysis and off tastes or would it be fine????

Also i've read in other threads that you should use campden with sorbate to prevent off flavours how much do you need to add???


Do everyone SERIOUSLY have to respond to every question all over again in this thread just like we did 7 or 8 times in EdWort's thread?

Just teasing. sorta. ;)

Anyway, if you bottle carb, you can't use campden. If you want it still, or if you use CO2 gas, then go ahead and use campden. People have done so. Read EdWort's thread for more info.
 
:) Ive read it (almost like a rite of passage that thread), but to be honest looking for useful info on the thread (apart from the first 10-20 pages) is a serious PITA and not worth the hassle.
Also noticed when you post a quesion on it that you get zero replies (unless your lucky) because they tend to get buried with the 'wow dude apfelwein is great' posts.

I thought that you needed K-sorbate to stop yeasts and that campden on its own is only good for stopping wild yeasts, but that you use campden and K-sorbate in conjunction to both stop the yeast and prevent unwanted reactions with the leftover sorbate??? Is this right? any winemakers out there???
 
Haha... I'm lengthening another apple thread. :fro:

I just tossed 4 gallons of apple juice in with 2 cans of concentrate with WLP300 (White Labs' standard German Hefeweizen strain).

OG of the Apple Juice is 1.046.

Each can of concentrate ups the gravity by .009 per gallon. I have an OG 1.051.


My plan is to rack to secondary at some point and use gelatin or other finings to actually clear the cider. Based on my past experience, priming half with brown sugar and half with honey, I will be using brown sugar for greater body and depth.

Or.. if I'm getting daring, maybe I'll prime it with apple juice... hehe....
 
delboy said:
:) Ive read it (almost like a rite of passage that thread), but to be honest looking for useful info on the thread (apart from the first 10-20 pages) is a serious PITA and not worth the hassle.
Also noticed when you post a quesion on it that you get zero replies (unless your lucky) because they tend to get buried with the 'wow dude apfelwein is great' posts.

I thought that you needed K-sorbate to stop yeasts and that campden on its own is only good for stopping wild yeasts, but that you use campden and K-sorbate in conjunction to both stop the yeast and prevent unwanted reactions with the leftover sorbate??? Is this right? any winemakers out there???

Campden on its own will NOT stop fermentation- in fact winemakers do use it to kill wild yeasts and bacteria. I use campden every other racking in all of my wines.

To stop fermentation, sorbate is added to the wine. However, you also need campden, too- because sorbate works better in the presence of sulfites and also because sorbate without some sulfite can led to a geranium-like off flavor and smell. So, you are 100% correct.

For any questions (not just apfelwein, but any threads) it's always best to start a new thread!
 
Damn Squirrels said:
My plan is to rack to secondary at some point and use gelatin or other finings to actually clear the cider. Based on my past experience, priming half with brown sugar and half with honey, I will be using brown sugar for greater body and depth.

Or.. if I'm getting daring, maybe I'll prime it with apple juice... hehe....

I'd recommend sparkelloid for clearing this. It should do a great job, leaving very little lees.
 
Airtight - Just a pointer on Cote Des Blanc. It needs yeast nutrients or energizer to work well.

Most ciders should have either one because the juice commonly lacks what most yeasts need to do the job well.

Most people say Montrachet produces a nasty sulfuric gas. Mine never did with the addition of nutrients.

Thanks for the interesting side by side comparision. I might have to try your favorite wheat yeast.

:mug:
 
The apple juice w/WLP300 at 1.051O.G. will be great, mine was, I didn't need the concentrate though since my juice was at that OG without concentrate addition. I fermented at about 72-75F, nice flavor and nose.
 
Schlenkerla said:
Airtight - Just a pointer on Cote Des Blanc. It needs yeast nutrients or energizer to work well.

Oh yeah, thats something I forgot to mention. On all of my batches for the wheat yeasts I used Wyeast Nutrient. And for the wine yeasts I used Wine Nutrient and Energizer.

Thanks for bringing that up, Schlenkerla.
 
Couldn't you add extra sugar with the wheat yeasts to retain a higher abv..or would that defeat the jolly rancher like sweetness..?
 
Reidman said:
Couldn't you add extra sugar with the wheat yeasts to retain a higher abv..or would that defeat the jolly rancher like sweetness..?

If you add more sugar to the must it makes it higher in ABV and drier or less jolly rancher like. :D
 
I would like to make a 5gl batch with 3.3lb wheat extract would I still need yeast food?
 
I can't believe the WLP300 actually cleared on it's own in my cider!!! :ban:

I am holding in my hand a sample that I siphoned off to secondary for clearing. Waste of time. 3 weeks or so in primary, it's clear as a bell. It finished at 1.004 though, which is still a tad on the low side, but it's mighty drinkable. I think I might add a little extra concentrate to boost the residual sweetness.


Cheers!



Edit to add: Zoiks! I'm already at 6.1% ABV. Maybe I won't make the next batch stronger. The more I taste it though, it's got a bit of an astringency to the aftertaste and it's a little light on the initial sip. Maybe adding some spice or something might help- that usually makes foods hit the front of the palate more.
 
Back
Top