BLING BLING Electric HERMS Conversion
- Thread starter The Pol
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Sounds like a job for yet another thermocouple and control cycle.
hard solder or hose clamp a TC to the element/s when element temps go above some number kill the power
CodeRage
Death by Magumba!
A float switch to lockout the element would be the most practical solution.
jkarp
Well-Known Member
I've been thinking along the very same lines as a couple people now who've built CB20s have burned up their elements by letting the kettle run dry. If anyone comes across an inexpensive, but reliable liquid sensor that can handle boiling temps, I'd love a ping.
Like The Pol said: Some can be bent. You just need to be careful. I had a camco high density 3500w element that I tried to bend and it shattered. There was ceramic inside the element and it just snapped.
The Pol and some other people have gotten other styles to bend with no problems. I bent my 5500w ULD element from Plumbing warehouse a bit with no issue. They are pretty cheap if you break one.
I can later tonight. I am not sure you will see much. I just spread it out a bit and out of the way of the thermowell.
CodeRage
Death by Magumba!
Yuri and I have been collaborating on a bubbler level sensor with promising results. It's nice because it is no contact and self cleaning. I've had to shelve it on my end for a few weeks but it is high on the list of things to get done. It will require a logic controller to use however.
All that said, a float switch is still the best and closest to bullet proof configuration. A prox-switch solution may be just as viable as a float, but that needs further investigation as well.
egurney
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jkarp
Well-Known Member
I was thinking more of something like this - no moving parts:
http://www.gemssensors.com/content.aspx?id=1138
http://www.gemssensors.com/content.aspx?id=1138
This is the one I'm using in my HLT. I don't know how it would hold up in a BK, though. The pivot is pretty small and could get sticky quick. These also don't handle much current, so I use it to break contact between the positive SSR drive output and the SSR control. Works really well. I do like the looks of the one posted by jcarp, if it can be had locally for a reasonable cost.
CodeRage
Death by Magumba!
CodeRage
Death by Magumba!
You would then have to drive a small dpdt relay so you can isolate the two signals. One to the SSR, the other to the BCS.
BrewBeemer
Well-Known Member
I would rather use one of these non mechanical units.
http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/prodinfo/LiquidLevel/datasheets/100437_3_en_w.pdf
http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/prodinfo/LiquidLevel/datasheets/100437_3_en_w.pdf
CodeRage
Death by Magumba!
I've seen those before, pretty cool.
BrewBeemer
Well-Known Member
Jason; i've been told the stainless version goes for $145, not a clue on the plastic ones that are rated to176*F.
My only question would be foam causing a false trigger or lack of.
My only question would be foam causing a false trigger or lack of.
BrewBeemer
Well-Known Member
A second on that Code with having a DPDT contact relay controlled by the LED sensor, both signals would then be isolated be it to the elements SSRD as well the BCS unit powered from the BCS unit itself. A small cheap 5 VDC coil cube relay. Mechanical is bound to hang up given enough time and conditions letting the smoke out then your screwed. Those toilet flushing units look like they belong in a 1900's oak WC not a brewery.
Yah that's the ticket. They have 'em in different materials polysulfone among them and even one made from Kynar which is super tough stuff:
http://www.arkema-inc.com/index.cfm?pag=626
CodeRage
Death by Magumba!
I dont think it would affect.
IIRC they work using refraction and reflection and though foam and bubbles would alter the refractive index it wouldn't be much. Once the lens is fully submerged the refractive index will change greatly, possibly changing the light reflected within the lens.
If you can get an analog signal out of these things it might be possible to measure SG. Thats another topic though.
Aww, c'mon Brew, these aren't that bad
. They're simple and do work, and they're cheep. I can replace mine 11 times for the price of one of the optical ones. I did say that I'd be careful before using one in a BK because of the teensy tiny hinge they use (easy to gum up with sticky wort), and I don't know that I will use one when I convert my BK to electric this fall, but I also don't know that I could justify $150 for an optical sensor unless I wanted to go full auto. As long as I homebrew I will never go full auto. Brewing is as much art as it is science, and I just can't fathom taking a complete hands-off approach. Sorry for the ramble, but I'm really enjoying the Stone sampler pack from Costco tonight 
. Funny that I move away from SD right before it becomes one of the biggest brewing meccas in the country :sigh:MrH
jkarp
Well-Known Member
Just took a quick glance over at Digikey and there's several solid-state sensors in the $40-60 range. I may have to dabble this spring...
BrewBeemer
Well-Known Member
Aww, c'mon Brew, these aren't that bad
MrH
Those plastic Honeywell sensors must be way cheaper than those stainless ones, I never priced them out and a cheap possible way to go with the 176*F max operating temp they have. Perfect for protecting the element in the HLT as well the liquid level in the MLT while sparging for your pump control. JMO vs anything mechanical to prevent any possible sticking float problems or possible big flooding or burnt element during your brewing session. Different flavors for different people, pick what works best for your system.
The delta is in the packing. Most industrial process heaters are thousand dollar multi-element stack units with mica. They can take a beating and a bending and keep on working. Ceramic is the cheap household stove top method. It's been around for ages and is a reliable technology in a stove top. So it's what you find on the cheaper units. The pricey ones that are intended to be "process" heaters are used in industrial settings where things really do go bump, they are are mica packed to withstand the beating.
Which one delivers the better efficiency? I sort of bet the ceramic packed ones do. But, you can't futz with them.
But there's a wrinkle in the "can you bend it?" issue.
Some ceramic packed elements have straight elements and others have spiral elements. Theoretically spiral elements may tolerate bending even in a ceramic pack because you are just sort of straightening out the spiral a tad while cracking the ceramic into powder. Which of course should shorten the life of the element because they don't have particularly good hysteresis. Or stated another way, they have a poor modulus of elasticity.
So which ones can you bend for sure ?
Industrial process heaters.
Which ones can you not bend?
The ones that break when you do.
You'll only know after you break it.
Water heater elements are not supposed to be in an industrial process environment where things get dropped and churned around.
They are supposed to be in a water heater.
klyph
Well-Known Member
Are the ULWD elements more likely to bend without breaking than the HWD elements?
BrewBeemer
Well-Known Member
No! At least the wavy 5.5KW camco I had that needed just 1 1/2" taken out of the 4" wave to screw into a tight place. It went poof within 5 seconds so I bend another with half the amount of straightening then fought the install, it went poof an hour later. My minds set on their 5.5KW straight folded back high mineral water ULWD elements. I was thinking wavy would spread the heat out but then i'm using ULWD not the higher density units so who cares in my application? Indirect heating.
The camco element that I snapped had a spiral element in it. I think the reason it snapped was because the metal tubing surrounding the element was too rigid. The one I have now seems to have a more resilient tubing. Though I am sure it too has the ceramic and spiral element. So I do not plan on bending it too far.
OP
OP
The Pol
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I have bent the Camco 02583 LWD elements, I know those will bend to a degree. How far? Dunno. Id look for an actual design solution before I relegated myself to manipulating the elements to a large degree.
Been real.
Peace out.
Been real.
Peace out.
egurney
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Is there any reason I couldn't mount the element horizontally instead of vertically?
Like this. http://home.swbell.net/bufkin/mill_&_hlt.htm
There doesn't seem to be any higher wattage 240 elements that are short. 10" seems to be the minimum for a 5500W, but that would really be pushing my 30A circuit once I add other components.
I'm thinking I could get a 12" element into the cooler horizontally giving me many more options.
Opinions?
willynilly
Well-Known Member
What is the diameter of your cooler? Beverage? 10 gallon? 12" is the diameter of most, youd be pushing it.
bsmoov
Member
Hey Pol,
This is probobly a dumb question but I've asked worse. Does each Element need its own PID or can one PID control multiple elements?
Thanks
This is probobly a dumb question but I've asked worse. Does each Element need its own PID or can one PID control multiple elements?
Thanks
Hermit
fuddle
Only dumb in as much as I doubt he will answer. The PID activates a relay so it is the relay that determines the load.
jkarp
Well-Known Member
I believe Pol has left us, but yes, you can drive multiple SSRs off a single PID.
jkarp
Well-Known Member
SSRs are more commonly used than relays for driving heating elements.
willynilly
Well-Known Member
SSRs are relays
jkarp
Well-Known Member
Well, SSRs are solid state. They are wired very differently to a PID. PIDs can usually source about 40mA and an SSR sinks about 10mA. So, a PID should be able to drive 3 SSRs pretty easily.
bsmoov
Member
Thanks Guys,
So if I understand correctly one PID can operate at least to SSR hooked up to two elements independently.
So if I understand correctly one PID can operate at least to SSR hooked up to two elements independently.
CodeRage
Death by Magumba!
Yes, you can run quite a few actually. You just need to be able to drive the led in the 'coil' of the SSR which takes minimal current. Just wire all of the SSRs that should turn on together + to + and - to -, with one attached the the PID output.
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