Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

onegear said:

I boiled enough to raise the temp to the next rest, but in tasting the beer at bottling, I should have boiled a bit longer (5-10min) because it seemed a bit thin in mouthfeel. I am by no means a double decoct expert, in the interest of full disclosure.
Good Luck!

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The Westvleteren 12 import also has a fairly thin mouth-feel. I think the Trappist idea is to have an ale with fewer polysacc's to make it more 'digestible'.

CSI said:

The Westvleteren 12 import also has a fairly thin mouth-feel. I think the Trappist idea is to have an ale with fewer polysacc's to make it more 'digestible'.

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I have had a couple of westy 12's in Vancouver Canada,(where I live) and the beer that I made is a bit thinner than the 12. it seems more like a slighty boozy westy 8. I think the heat from the abv will balance out, and it will be a nice beer, but I missed mark of a the perfect clone. I still have 5 gal of really nice beer.

onegear said:

I have had a couple of westy 12's in Vancouver Canada,(where I live) and the beer that I made is a bit thinner than the 12. it seems more like a slighty boozy westy 8. I think the heat from the abv will balance out, and it will be a nice beer, but I missed mark of a the perfect clone. I still have 5 gal of really nice beer.

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That does sound like a thin ale. What was the sacch rest temp?

I'm brewing this on sat morning. My first belgian. Can someone tell me what bittering hop is best? I have NB and Brewers Gold based on reading this entire thread.

CSI said:

That does sound like a thin ale. What was the sacch rest temp?

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130 protein rest then first decoction. 1st sacch rest was 152 for thirty and after second decoct, 156 for 30 min.

I want do the same recipe again with the CSI syrup and see the difference. I have a feeling it will be noticeable.
I have finally located some of your products and will use the d-90 for one of the other clones on the CSI site and the d-180 for the westy 12. Thanks for all your help, and interest.

Cheers,
Ashley

GreenWing said:

I'm brewing this on sat morning. My first belgian. Can someone tell me what bittering hop is best? I have NB and Brewers Gold based on reading this entire thread.

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We've used both. Brewer's Gold ages well and retains some of it's spicy character after 12 months in conditioning. Northern Brewer is a little more floral and ages out to 'faintly noticeable' after 12 months, (which is probably closer to style). Some suggest tackling a Westmalle dubble clone as a trial run for bigger Belgians. Your could also try Chimay GR, or even Westy 8 clone. The Westy 12 is a pretty complex brew for a first run at Belgians

Thanks. I'll give Northern Brewer a shot.

onegear said:

I have had a couple of westy 12's in Vancouver Canada,(where I live)

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Hate to derail this thread, but may I enquire where abouts in Vancouver you found these? Never seen it, and really want to try!

Now back to our regular scheduled programing

Thanks onegear

BlackPriest said:

Hate to derail this thread, but may I enquire where abouts in Vancouver you found these? Never seen it, and really want to try!

Now back to our regular scheduled programing

Thanks onegear

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I had to buck up and order from Belgium in a Box. Shipping was super expensive, but I went in on the box with another local brewer who wanted to try it, we both got five bottles a piece. I also got a Cantillon Kriek, gueze and a 3F Armand Herfest. He got five bottles and three Cantillon and a glass. My share was 215.00 US, his was about 192.00
Westy doesn't distribute outside of their Trappist footprint and most bottles that are sold to us people overseas are sort of bootlegged by people buying them at the Abbey and storing them.
They released a 1 time box set of four bottles and a glass at a retail cost of around 86.00 to a few places in the US earlier in the year, and they all went fast. I don't think they will be doing that again for sometime, or until they have to fix their roof again.
If you do find it, buy it all without hesitation lol

Wow that's some expensive beer! I live in Vancouver same as gear so I'm hoping to get lucky and get to try.... If he checks back and share his source of course...pretty please... With sugar on top, or I guess in this forum I should say with foam on top

BlackPriest said:

Wow that's some expensive beer! I live in Vancouver same as gear so I'm hoping to get lucky and get to try.... If he checks back and share his source of course...pretty please... With sugar on top, or I guess in this forum I should say with foam on top

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You may also try using Belgianshop.com. We order from them once per year and they've been very good on service and shipping rates, (comparatively).

BlackPriest said:

Wow that's some expensive beer! I live in Vancouver same as gear so I'm hoping to get lucky and get to try.... If he checks back and share his source of course...pretty please... With sugar on top, or I guess in this forum I should say with foam on top

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Sorry, I have not checked in lately to the board. I got all mine from Biercraft on Cambie, one was with a Christmas gift card, so it was free. they don't list them on the menu, but the 12 goes for $30 and the 8 for 24.

On the Pious thread, only 3 more weeks before I get to try one from my batch. Dec 8.

I made traditional version, it was single infusion mash that stabilized at 151F and i used 4lb total of sugars for 11gal batch (in primary at 48h of fermentation), OG was 1.095 but after two weeks of very nice fermentation (with 3787 strain) it hit stable gravity at 1.019, im a little disappointed by that, on top of that i hopped it to only 26IBU and as a result of two things my beer is on the sweet side, its not terrible but not what i was hoping for. I tried champagne yeast to bring few points down but it didnt move at all, no i think i will just lager for 2-3 weeks and bottle to 3 vol of CO2 to help with sweetens a little bit. I will try this recipe again next year, just mash lower/longer

Polboy said:

I made traditional version, it was single infusion mash that stabilized at 151F and i used 4lb total of sugars for 11gal batch (in primary at 48h of fermentation), OG was 1.095 but after two weeks of very nice fermentation (with 3787 strain) it hit stable gravity at 1.019, im a little disappointed by that, on top of that i hopped it to only 26IBU and as a result of two things my beer is on the sweet side, its not terrible but not what i was hoping for. I tried champagne yeast to bring few points down but it didnt move at all, no i think i will just lager for 2-3 weeks and bottle to 3 vol of CO2 to help with sweetens a little bit. I will try this recipe again next year, just mash lower/longer

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151F mash is fine on this and would not have created the gravity stall. The following docs may help on the next attempt:

http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/belgian_ale_pitching_rates_-_rev_1.5.pdf

http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/westvleteren_12_clone_--_019x.pdf

Also, before bottling at 1.019 there is one last technique to correct this.

CSI said:

151F mash is fine on this and would not have created the gravity stall. The following docs may help on the next attempt:

http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/belgian_ale_pitching_rates_-_rev_1.5.pdf

http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/westvleteren_12_clone_--_019x.pdf

Also, before bottling at 1.019 there is one last technique to correct this.

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A cliff hanger!! Do tell, please. I am hovering at 1.019 right now and would love to know how to get it lower before I bottle.

BeerMeDuffMan said:

A cliff hanger!! Do tell, please. I am hovering at 1.019 right now and would love to know how to get it lower before I bottle.

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Three years ago when we first ran the Pious Traditional recipe with the suggested under-pitch it also hung at 1.018. We contacted Jamil and his advice was as follows:

Create a new WLP530 stir-plate 3000ml starter. The large starter has be able to quickly ferment under adverse conditions so it has to be large. Oxygenate the starter before seeding with 1 vial WLP530, oxygenate it again at 8 hrs, and after high krausen has subsided oxygenate it a third time. Crash the starter to flocc. Take out of chill and pour off almost all of the starter beer and let the temp normalize to your primary temp. Pitch and stir in *very* gently. In 1-2 days a slow fermentation will resume. Monitor until you reach FG 1.012. Probably another week to 10 days. It worked

CSI said:

Three years ago when we first ran the Pious Traditional recipe with the suggested under-pitch it also hung at 1.018. We contacted Jamil and his advice was as follows:

Create a new WLP530 stir-plate 3000ml starter. The large starter has be able to quickly ferment under adverse conditions so it has to be large. Oxygenate the starter before seeding with 1 vial WLP530, oxygenate it again at 8 hrs, and after high krausen has subsided oxygenate it a third time. Crash the starter to flocc. Take out of chill and pour off almost all of the starter beer and let the temp normalize to your primary temp. Pitch and stir in *very* gently. In 1-2 days a slow fermentation will resume. Monitor until you reach FG 1.012. Probably another week to 10 days. It worked

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Thanks a bundle! Jamil, is there anything that you don't know :cross:

BeerMeDuffMan said:

Thanks a bundle! Jamil, is there anything that you don't know :cross:

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Jamil is the Zen yeast master!

CSI said:

151F mash is fine on this and would not have created the gravity stall. The following docs may help on the next attempt:

http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/belgian_ale_pitching_rates_-_rev_1.5.pdf

http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/westvleteren_12_clone_--_019x.pdf

Also, before bottling at 1.019 there is one last technique to correct this.

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I read 2/3 of this thread and lots of info from your website before i brew this beer, a lot of good information i have to say. I was aiming for 550 billion cells starter for 11gal (2 step starter on stir plate, predicted by yeast calculator but not counted), i wasnt sure how to adjust pitch rate for sugar addition in primary (i pitched in to 1.060 or so wort then added sugar after 48h). I like the advice of adding another starter but i think i will skip it this time, its on the sweet side but not bad at all, im still surprised champagne yeast didnt do anything.

Polboy said:

I read 2/3 of this thread and lots of info from your website before i brew this beer, a lot of good information i have to say. I was aiming for 550 billion cells starter for 11gal (2 step starter on stir plate, predicted by yeast calculator but not counted), i wasnt sure how to adjust pitch rate for sugar addition in primary (i pitched in to 1.060 or so wort then added sugar after 48h). I like the advice of adding another starter but i think i will skip it this time, its on the sweet side but not bad at all, im still surprised champagne yeast didnt do anything.

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Yep, re-pitching a small yeast count does have almost negligible affect.

I don't think you'd regret mashing at 148F for 90 minutes next time.

These are some past experiences with that mash plan (base malt + candi syrup at flameout only in these recipes). In no case did I think these beers were too thin-bodied.

Tripel (1.082->1.011)
Quad (1.087->1.013)
Tripel (1.077->1.009)
Blonde (1.055->1.005)
Dubbel (1.063->1.005)

Polboy said:

I read 2/3 of this thread and lots of info from your website before i brew this beer, a lot of good information i have to say. I was aiming for 550 billion cells starter for 11gal (2 step starter on stir plate, predicted by yeast calculator but not counted), i wasnt sure how to adjust pitch rate for sugar addition in primary (i pitched in to 1.060 or so wort then added sugar after 48h). I like the advice of adding another starter but i think i will skip it this time, its on the sweet side but not bad at all, im still surprised champagne yeast didnt do anything.

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I hope a couple of quick comments on this is ok for review since high gravity stall has been a recurring topic:

I think your pitch estimate of 575 billion was workable for a gravity of 1.090 and a volume of 10 gallons. For a gravity of 1.096 and a volume of 11 gallons the pitch would have needed to be closer to 790 billion (acceptable under-pitch down to about 680 billion).

Another observation is the syrup late addition. Late additions of candi syrups are not necessary. The same flavor and fermentability will be achieved adding at flameout or flameout-10 min assuming a fair pitch rate.

Bottling at 1.019 might be of some concern as the amount of fermentables is still very high. Using Champagne bottles might lessen the risk of bottle bombs.

Just my .02

I have a process question. I mis-timed this batch of beer. I want to follow the fermentation schedule as closely as possible, but I will be out of town on day 5 of my fermentation.

Which option is better?

• Drop the temperature to 65 degrees on day 4 and let it sit until I get back on day 8.
  
• Let the beer ferment at a high temperature for 7 days, then drop the temp to 65 on day 8 and let it clean up for a few more days.

CSI said:

I hope a couple of quick comments on this is ok for review since high gravity stall has been a recurring topic:

I think your pitch estimate of 575 billion was workable for a gravity of 1.090 and a volume of 10 gallons. For a gravity of 1.096 and a volume of 11 gallons the pitch would have needed to be closer to 790 billion (acceptable under-pitch down to about 680 billion).

Another observation is the syrup late addition. Late additions of candi syrups are not necessary. The same flavor and fermentability will be achieved adding at flameout or flameout-10 min assuming a fair pitch rate.

Bottling at 1.019 might be of some concern as the amount of fermentables is still very high. Using Champagne bottles might lessen the risk of bottle bombs.

Just my .02

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I completely agree on pitch rates in to 11gal of 1.095 OG wort but i wasnt able to build big enough starter so i decide to do sugar additions in primary after yeasts had 2 days to multiply as a compromise, it didnt work very well as we can see

Polboy said:

I completely agree on pitch rates in to 11gal of 1.095 OG wort but i wasnt able to build big enough starter so i decide to do sugar additions in primary after yeasts had 2 days to multiply as a compromise, it didnt work very well as we can see

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I think the late addition had the potential of working. [pre-empt] The gravity would have dropped significantly after 14-18 hours assuming healthy yeast. If the syrup was made miscible and gently mixed in at high krausen, it would likely have dropped the added gravity to FG to target, (all things being equal with initial oxygenation, nutrient, etc).

Brewed the traditional recipe about 8 weeks ago.Did a protein rest at 126, mashed at 150-151 for 60 min, mashed out at 175, boiled for 90 min.

Had incredible efficiency with a 1.099 OG. Pitched a 2000ml starter. Let the temp rise, caught it at 84 degrees, so I started to cool it off. Held around 80 degrees until it was "done". Gravity after three weeks was stuck at 1.030. Tried rousing the yeast and pitching yeast nutrient and amylase enzyme, two weeks later there was no change.

8 days ago, I pitched some champagne yeast to try to get it to finish out. Now it is at 1.024. Anything else I can do to get it to finish out?

jason91notch said:

Brewed the traditional recipe about 8 weeks ago.Did a protein rest at 126, mashed at 150-151 for 60 min, mashed out at 175, boiled for 90 min.

Had incredible efficiency with a 1.099 OG. Pitched a 2000ml starter. Let the temp rise, caught it at 84 degrees, so I started to cool it off. Held around 80 degrees until it was "done". Gravity after three weeks was stuck at 1.030. Tried rousing the yeast and pitching yeast nutrient and amylase enzyme, two weeks later there was no change.

8 days ago, I pitched some champagne yeast to try to get it to finish out. Now it is at 1.024. Anything else I can do to get it to finish out?

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There is a post just above on this with a remedy.

I bottled about a year ago and compared side by side with the real deal yesterday.


Mine (single infusion mash) has some flaws due to pitching into wort that was too hot (fusels mostly). Most have subdued during aging, but are still present.

But for the most part, this recipe is spot on. The aroma, appearance are very very close between my clone and the original. I need to dial in my temperature control and this will be a perfect clone I think.

Thanks for all the effort in this thread, especially CSI and Saq.

Wobrien,

Sounds great... Was this the New World, Old World?

wobrien said:

I bottled about a year ago and compared side by side with the real deal yesterday.
View attachment 162390

Mine (single infusion mash) has some flaws due to pitching into wort that was too hot (fusels mostly). Most have subdued during aging, but are still present.

But for the most part, this recipe is spot on. The aroma, appearance are very very close between my clone and the original. I need to dial in my temperature control and this will be a perfect clone I think.

Thanks for all the effort in this thread, especially CSI and Saq.

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Beautiful ale

anthropod said:

Wobrien, Sounds great... Was this the New World, Old World?

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New World, the one that was the single infusion mash

CSI said:

Beautiful ale

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It really is as good as advertised

How do you think the taste profile would change if I added Turbinado in place of the Amber sugar.

I would use the Dark candi sugar and simply replace the Amber addition with the Turbinado.

onegear said:

Sorry, I have not checked in lately to the board. I got all mine from Biercraft on Cambie, one was with a Christmas gift card, so it was free. they don't list them on the menu, but the 12 goes for $30 and the 8 for 24.

On the Pious thread, only 3 more weeks before I get to try one from my batch. Dec 8.

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Hee hee, me too obviously Good ol Biercraft, only 5 minutes away... now I know what to put on my Christmas list, if they still have any that is.

Thanks a bunch for the tip, 30 bucks for a bottle of beer is quite steep, but quite a bit cheaper than having to fly around the world to get one

BlackPriest said:

Hee hee, me too obviously Good ol Biercraft, only 5 minutes away... now I know what to put on my Christmas list, if they still have any that is.

Thanks a bunch for the tip, 30 bucks for a bottle of beer is quite steep, but quite a bit cheaper than having to fly around the world to get one

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#worthit lol

hokieguy95 said:

How do you think the taste profile would change if I added Turbinado in place of the Amber sugar.

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Turbinado is raw sucrose. May not suit an ale as subtle as a Wesvleteren 12. Amber, D-45, Candi Syrup carries notable natural flavors that plain sucrose does not, however, I'm not sure D-45 is fitting for the Westy either. It's more of dark syrup ale.

I've read through a good 75% of this thread and can't seem to find any info on water profile for this brew. I build mine up from R/O so I'm just looking for some rough targets to shoot for.

Also, how would you say the old world recipe (which I plan to do) compares to rochefort 10? I had one the other night and it was a little to heavy on the dark/rotten fruit for my tastes. I remember liking St. Bernardus 12 a lot more, does this resemble one of those more than the other?

Thanks for the awesome thread!

GrowlerMonkey said:

I've read through a good 75% of this thread and can't seem to find any info on water profile for this brew. I build mine up from R/O so I'm just looking for some rough targets to shoot for.

Also, how would you say the old world recipe (which I plan to do) compares to rochefort 10? I had one the other night and it was a little to heavy on the dark/rotten fruit for my tastes. I remember liking St. Bernardus 12 a lot more, does this resemble one of those more than the other?

Thanks for the awesome thread!

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This is the conditioned profile we've used starting from 3-stage R/O:

Calcium: 55
Carbonate: 91
Magnesium: 8
Sodium: 16
Chloride: 40
Suphate: 62

It certainly is not the only water profile that would work with this ale but it does a very nice job in allowing the hops to 'crisp' and age well along with the Pale/Pils. Even after two years of bottle conditioning I can still detect Brewers Gold or Northern Brewer in some of our reserve clones.

We originally tried the Vleteren/Popperinge municipal profile and it was not ideal. I think Stan's statement about water conditioning is correct. The brewery at St. Sixtus would most certainly have to condition their water.

The Rochefort 10 is sweeter and more cherry-like with a slightly heavier mouth-feel. Westvleteren 12, (and well brewed clones), have a malt-caramel-plum palate. St. Bernardus is drier and seems just slightly more boozy with a hint of BDB. I like them all and never get tired of brewing any of them.

Anyway, this is based on the recipe here: http://www.candisyrup.com/recipes.html The Westy 12 is about 2/3rds down the page.

Please!!! Can someone give the me the cliff notes to this thread?? I understand there is a traditional and a new world version of this recipe?? I hear that Candi Syrup's D-180 is good for this but someone told me that using three pounds of it will give off a metalic flavor. Anyone have experience with this type of sugar for this beer? I am on the way back from Belgium and I have a 6 pack of this beer and I want to brew it to compare. Perhaps brew both old and new versions to compare with the real deal. If anyone here can just point me in the right direction recipe / preceedure wise I would greatly appreciate it. I don't think I can handle sifting through 160 pages of this thread. Maybe one day I will. A thoudand thanks in advance for all your assistance!! Cheers, Richie

Resto3 said:

I hear that Candi Syrup's D-180 is good for this but someone told me that using three pounds of it will give off a metalic flavor.

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They were probably referring to another product brand which does carry a molasses-like flavor, (some refer to this as metallic). It is probably due to the type of kettles used in processing. These syrups do have an old world charm and you can even pick up some of these copper kettle flavors in the export ales. It's not bad so please do not take this wrong way. Even the import ales that still use this kind of adjunct have a faint copper in the background. In their defense, this product distributor states "D2 - Dark Belgian Candi Syrup gives intense molasses and burnt-caramel character." so the issue is honestly disclosed.

All of the Candi Syrup, Inc. (premium) syrups including D-180 are absent any off-flavors due to modern, all stainless-316 processing systems from start to finish. This was one of the improvements made to this class of adjunct. All of Candi Syrup, Inc. products including D-180 are sold in Holland and Belgium so we think the quality improvement is catching on

-end of shameless disclosure-

I just had my first taste this week of Recipe 17X that I brewed in May... And I was unable to follow the fermentation schedule, pretty much let it ramp naturally and then bottle after three weeks and this sucker tastes great!!! Makes me really happy after being away for so long to come back to a tasty beer even if I was unable to follow the ferm schedule. Shortly I will be brewing this year's batch I guess it will be 19X? Either way I will follow the ferm sched to the "T" cause I now have temp control. Anyhow I couldn't be more pleased with what I have!