Moving to All Grain

I know this type of thread is probably posted a lot but I have read a bunch and I'm still confused on the best way for me personally to move into AG brewing. I have done two extract kits and both seem fine. One is bottled and carbing and the other is still in primary. I want to move to AG because it's cheaper, provides more flexibility and is the next step.

I bought a cheap turkey frier so I'm already somewhat there but the kettle is 7.5 gals and I don't want to buy another kettle. I probably will in the near future but not now. I also have plenty of coolers for a Mash Lauter Tun that I can use, they are rectangular but that shouldn't matter. My first question is why would I change the drain spigot on the cooler like I have seen in numerous threads?

I have a stove where I can heat sparge water and can purchase nylon bags for grain if need be. Now that you know what my equipment is, what would be the easiest and cheapest way/method for me to move into AG brewing?

Thanks

You can buy a ball valve and kettle screen for 35 bucks and tread it into your cooler and your ready to go. The whole build takes five minuets.

I have 3 extract brews under my belt and like you I have decided to go AG. I will be doing the Brew in a Bag method for my first AG https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/biab-brewing-pics-233289/ and will start to assemble and learn as I go so I can continue to brew better beer.

I'm not so sure about AG being cheaper. I just purchased the ingredients for this left hand milk stout (along with bags) and it came to like 70.00?
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f68/left-hand-milk-stout-clone-139820/

Bulk may be the answer to cheaper beer

Archie

It's Definitely cheaper if you buy in bulk but grain is cheaper than extract. Maybe not by much but it is.

What I don't understand about the MLT conversion is why? Apart from the strainer/filter why add the ball valve? The existing spigot does the same thing.

Would BIAB method be the easiest way for me to segway to AG? All I have is a 7.5 gallon kettle and various pots and pans, could I BIAB and then sparge in the MLT and combine? I'm just confused about the whole process.

Henry22 said:

What I don't understand about the MLT conversion is why? Apart from the strainer/filter why add the ball valve? The existing spigot does the same thing.

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1. You are going to want to be able to control the rate of flow so you don't risk a stuck sparge and/or make a mess when opening.

2. I'm not putting my fingers in the way of 168ish degree water more than I have to.

Henry22 said:

It's Definitely cheaper if you buy in bulk but grain is cheaper than extract. Maybe not by much but it is.

What I don't understand about the MLT conversion is why? Apart from the strainer/filter why add the ball valve? The existing spigot does the same thing.

Would BIAB method be the easiest way for me to segway to AG? All I have is a 7.5 gallon kettle and various pots and pans, could I BIAB and then sparge in the MLT and combine? I'm just confused about the whole process.

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You have to have a screen or mainfold on the drain. After mashing, you open the ball valve and the wort drains out through the grain. Without a screen, the grain would plug the drain up. So the easiest way (the only way) is to remove the current drain valve and either add a ball valve attached to a barb on the inside or shove a tube through the drain hole (after removing the drain spigot) add a screen/manifold on the inside and a shutoff on the outside.

And, like Naggs mantioned, that wort will be freaking hot!

Henry22 said:

Would BIAB method be the easiest way for me to segway to AG? All I have is a 7.5 gallon kettle and various pots and pans, could I BIAB and then sparge in the MLT and combine? I'm just confused about the whole process.

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BIAB would probably be a good way to go. You would probably be limited to 3 gallon batches with a kettle that size. There is a calculator somewhere to calculate how much space the grain would take up. You wouldn't necessarly do a "sparge". You can rinse the grains after mashing but you don't have to. Also, you would need a false bottom for your kettle to keep your bag from melting as you control the temperature.

Brew in a bag will work with your turkey fryer for average ales but it will be right to the top if you use the full volume of water plus the grains. You can do some things with this. You can use less water for your mash and then top up, you can modify the brew in a bag and use some water in another pot for sparging, if you can suspend the bag of grain over the turkey fryer you can just pour top off water through it to extract a little more wort and get the full volume for your boil. Any of these will work and I've tried them all. I like to suspend the bag of grain over a different pot and pour COLD water through it. This might not extract as much of the sweet wort as hot water but it sure makes it easier to squeeze more wort from the cooler bag of grains instead of that 160 degree grain bag.

RM-MN said:

I like to suspend the bag of grain over a different pot and pour COLD water through it. This might not extract as much of the sweet wort as hot water but it sure makes it easier to squeeze more wort from the cooler bag of grains instead of that 160 degree grain bag.

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Hmmmm....I have never BIAB but, I've read you shouldn't "squeeze" the bag. Also, wouldn't want to use very hot water (168F+) to rinse?

jetmac said:

Hmmmm....I have never BIAB but, I've read you shouldn't "squeeze" the bag. Also, wouldn't want to use very hot water (168F+) to rinse?

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The "no squeezing" is old info. People thought that that could cause the extraction of tannins. Same with the hot water but it takes water over 170 at the same time that your mash is alkaline to extract the tannins. Since the normal mash is acidic you can sparge with boiling water if you choose. That is why decoction mashes are OK. If you continue to sparge to get every last bit of sugars out, eventually you can make the grain bed go alkaline if your water has the right minerals but you have to work at it for that to happen.:rockin:

RM-MN said:

The "no squeezing" is old info. People thought that that could cause the extraction of tannins. Same with the hot water but it takes water over 170 at the same time that your mash is alkaline to extract the tannins. Since the normal mash is acidic you can sparge with boiling water if you choose. That is why decoction mashes are OK. If you continue to sparge to get every last bit of sugars out, eventually you can make the grain bed go alkaline if your water has the right minerals but you have to work at it for that to happen.:rockin:

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The way I understand it, is that squeezing not only has been said to extract the tannins(which may be old news) and put them into your kettle but also allows more trub and cloudy wort into your kettle as the grain bed, in the bag, acts as a filter, holding in the trub and cloudy wort. And that the best way to get more wort out of the bag is to rinse it rather than squeeze it :shrug:

To each his own.

I converted to All Grain fast for allot of reasons. My costs went way down; but I wasn't ready to spend all the coin for three Tier. I'm hooked on BIAB! With Brewing software its so easy....

So as I understand it and after watching that Brewing TV video, I could BIAB using my current set up and either sparge or not sparge depending on if I wanted to maximize my efficiency? Could I do full 5 gallon batches with this? Im not really interested in super high gravity beers so that should be a problem but with a 7.5 gallon kettle should I be fine with around 6.5 gallon pre volume boils? Or could I do less of a preboil volume around 5 gallons and top up after the boil before it goes into the fermenter like extract brewing?

jetmac said:

The way I understand it, is that squeezing not only has been said to extract the tannins(which may be old news) and put them into your kettle but also allows more trub and cloudy wort into your kettle as the grain bed, in the bag, acts as a filter, holding in the trub and cloudy wort. And that the best way to get more wort out of the bag is to rinse it rather than squeeze it :shrug:

To each his own.

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It does give me more cloudy wort but I don't drink wort, I drink beer and by the time it is done fermenting, settling and in the bottle it is as clear as any.

Henry22 said:

So as I understand it and after watching that Brewing TV video, I could BIAB using my current set up and either sparge or not sparge depending on if I wanted to maximize my efficiency? Could I do full 5 gallon batches with this? Im not really interested in super high gravity beers so that should be a problem but with a 7.5 gallon kettle should I be fine with around 6.5 gallon pre volume boils? Or could I do less of a preboil volume around 5 gallons and top up after the boil before it goes into the fermenter like extract brewing?

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I don't know if YOU can do a 5 gallon batch with this setup but I have been doing them for a year now. That's why I said that on an average beer the kettle will be full to the rim, I've done it.

You could do BIAB w/Super High Eff Beers; just mash w/allot less water and add the remainder later and make sure to mash out as well to increase OG.

I won a second place in our State Competition w/BIAB Rye/Wheat beer. The judges said, "very Kolsch like and crystal clear".... don't fear the BAG!

I think its settled then. I was going to order some more extract kits but I think Im going to do all grain. Ill do the BIAB method and do as much preboil volume as the kettle can fit and then top up with water before fermentation. Is that bad to add water to the fermenter to make 5 gallons if postboil volume is something like 4 or 4.5?

Becuase you wont know your grain absorption rate, nor your real effeciency... keep some DME around to adjust your Wort to meet your OG. It will take a few tries to nail down your numbers; a little DME works great to make up the difference when starting out. I do like Full Volume Boils though...

Henry22 said:

I think its settled then. I was going to order some more extract kits but I think Im going to do all grain. Ill do the BIAB method and do as much preboil volume as the kettle can fit and then top up with water before fermentation. Is that bad to add water to the fermenter to make 5 gallons if postboil volume is something like 4 or 4.5?

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Isn't that what you've been doing when you make an extract kit? The only thing I would do different would be pouring the make-up water through the bag of grains to extract any extra sugars you can.

RM-MN said:

Isn't that what you've been doing when you make an extract kit? The only thing I would do different would be pouring the make-up water through the bag of grains to extract any extra sugars you can.

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Yes but I asked because the sugars are already in the extract whereas youre trying to extract them from the grain. Thought that using less water would result in less sugar extraction. Thanks for the help though.

You say you already have a cooler you could use as a mash tun, why not do a traditional all grain setup so you don't have to worry about your kettle being too small for BIAB? I use my kettle as my hot liquor tank and boil kettle. I drain my runnings into a bottling bucket and transfer it to the kettle after I sparge. Not trying to change your mind just a thought.

brew2enjoy said:

You say you already have a cooler you could use as a mash tun, why not do a traditional all grain setup so you don't have to worry about your kettle being too small for BIAB? I use my kettle as my hot liquor tank and boil kettle. I drain my runnings into a bottling bucket and transfer it to the kettle after I sparge. Not trying to change your mind just a thought.

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I guess I could but I would have to alter my cooler whereas BIAB only requires me buying a $4 painters bag. Going to try BIAB and if it doesn't work out I can always convert the cooler.

Do you get your water to around ~160 and then put it in your cooler and add the grain and let it set for an hour. Then you drain that water into your kettle. Sparge with more water and drain that into your kettle then begin the boil. Is that the basic steps you follow?

Henry22 said:

I guess I could but I would have to alter my cooler whereas BIAB only requires me buying a $4 painters bag. Going to try BIAB and if it doesn't work out I can always convert the cooler.

Do you get your water to around ~160 and then put it in your cooler and add the grain and let it set for an hour. Then you drain that water into your kettle. Sparge with more water and drain that into your kettle then begin the boil. Is that the basic steps you follow?

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This was my approach and it worked so well that I didn't need to go any farther yet. I started with a 3 gallon batch to see if it would work. It was a cheap way to explore and it worked so well I started 5 gallon batches. I think my next batch I will go back to 3 gallons as I work out another problem that has cropped up.

When doing a traditional mash tun you need to get your water a bit warmer since you are adding a smaller amount of water to the grain than you would for BIAB. There are online calculators for this.

We will see how BIAB goes and maybe I will want to move to traditional AG brewing but this seems like the best fit for me now. I think I will start off with a 6 gallon preboil volume and top up with water by pouring through the grain into the fermenting bucket on the advice of RM-MN.

Thanks for all the help!

I did about 4 extract batches before going all grain and I just completed my 3rd all grain. I never even considered goin BIAB because I wanted to ramp up with the equipment immediately and it just seemed so bulky and heavy. But the equipment wasn't all that expensive. I used an old 48qt rubbermaid cooler with a ball valve and SS dishwasher braid and I think the whole thing came to like $28. As far as the kettle goes I knew that 7.5 gals was not going to be enough so I bought this from Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000VXHKMC/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

and it was the best purchase so far.

If you really want to go all grain then make the investment in time and effort and build a proper mash tun. If you're like me (and, I'm sure, many others on these boards) all grain will become a real passion that borders on addiction. I just completed my 3rd batch in 2 1/2 weeks and I am starting another tomorrow. I can't even keep bulk grain around because I use it too fast!!

Henry22 said:

top up with water by pouring through the grain into the fermenting bucket on the advice of RM-MN.

Thanks for all the help!

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Don't do this. If you want to top off in your fermentor use boiled or distilled water only. Don't pour it through the grain into the fermentor. Wort needs to be boiled prior to fermenting.

Henry22 said:

I guess I could but I would have to alter my cooler whereas BIAB only requires me buying a $4 painters bag. Going to try BIAB and if it doesn't work out I can always convert the cooler.

Do you get your water to around ~160 and then put it in your cooler and add the grain and let it set for an hour. Then you drain that water into your kettle. Sparge with more water and drain that into your kettle then begin the boil. Is that the basic steps you follow?

Click to expand...

You could use the bag in the cooler. You have to remember that the grain is going to take up space in your pot, you need to search around to find a calculator that will calculate how much space the grain takes up

Here is a calculator that will calculate how much space the grain will take up Scroll down

Henry22 said:

We will see how BIAB goes and maybe I will want to move to traditional AG brewing but this seems like the best fit for me now. I think I will start off with a 6 gallon preboil volume and top up with water by pouring through the grain into the fermenting bucket on the advice of RM-MN.

Thanks for all the help!

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Not into the fermenting bucket, into the boil pot. Grains have all kinds of interesting bacteria on them that you need to boil to make sure they are dead. Putting it into the fermenter without boiling is like playing Russian Roulette with all cylinders full.

That makes sense haha. I'll pour the water through the grain into the boil and top up if I need to with distilled water in the fermenter.

brew2enjoy said:

You say you already have a cooler you could use as a mash tun, why not do a traditional all grain setup so you don't have to worry about your kettle being too small for BIAB? I use my kettle as my hot liquor tank and boil kettle. I drain my runnings into a bottling bucket and transfer it to the kettle after I sparge. Not trying to change your mind just a thought.

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I think after all I will do the traditional method and alter my cooler. Is their anyway I can figure out the proper size equipment needed to alter my cooler to a MLT? Just measure the opening after I take out the spigot?

Also, will I be fine with a 7.5 gallon kettle for full 5 gallon batches if I do the traditional method? I can always heat sparge water on the stove. Eventually I will buy a bigger and better kettle, but I dont have the funds for it right now.

I've done many ,AG beers. I used to use a 'traditional' set up with a cooler.

recently I did BIAB with my 7.5 gallon turkey fryer. I used a paint strainer bag and ten pounds of grain. I have done two batches. I got 65% and 78% efficiency. I made 4.75 ish gallons. I have five gallon carboys so I don't have much room. I use FermCapS in the carboy but not in the kettle. I also didn't have any boil overs.

The kettle is FULL when I'm mashing. So full that the lid didn't fit the first time and I had to remove about 15 ounces of water. But once I pull the bag there is plenty of room to boil the wort. I get about one gallon of boil off per hour.

And, squeezing the bag will not extract tannins.

I have cleaned my mash tun for the last time. For me, biab is the perfect set up.

Henry22 said:

I think after all I will do the traditional method and alter my cooler. Is their anyway I can figure out the proper size equipment needed to alter my cooler to a MLT? Just measure the opening after I take out the spigot?

Also, will I be fine with a 7.5 gallon kettle for full 5 gallon batches if I do the traditional method? I can always heat sparge water on the stove. Eventually I will buy a bigger and better kettle, but I dont have the funds for it right now.

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I'm on my phone right now so I can't post the link but check the diy section. there is a good right up on converting a cooler to a mash tun. As for your kettle, I usually boil off about 1 gallon per hour so I like to start with 6.5 gallons to end up with 5.5 in the fermenter. I think you will be fine. I usually heat my strike and sparge water on my stove to save propane too.

A lot of turkey fryers, especially cheaper ones, come with aluminum pots. Check to make sure yours is something suitable for brewing, like stainless steel. My first two brews had a noticable metal aftertaste from making this mistake.

Good luck with AG! Ill be following shortly!

brew2enjoy said:

I'm on my phone right now so I can't post the link but check the diy section. there is a good right up on converting a cooler to a mash tun. As for your kettle, I usually boil off about 1 gallon per hour so I like to start with 6.5 gallons to end up with 5.5 in the fermenter. I think you will be fine. I usually heat my strike and sparge water on my stove to save propane too.

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Yeah I have seen that DIY but Im afraid that my spigot will be a different size requiring different parts. My cooler I am going to use also has permanent maker written on the inside so I am thinking of just buying a new cooler.

HappyHollowBrews said:

A lot of turkey fryers, especially cheaper ones, come with aluminum pots. Check to make sure yours is something suitable for brewing, like stainless steel. My first two brews had a noticable metal aftertaste from making this mistake.

Good luck with AG! Ill be following shortly!

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It is aluminum but you can prevent that by boiling water in it for 30mins to an hour to apply an oxide layer which I did. Lots of people brew with aluminum kettles.

I've only brewed with aluminum pots.....

The Aluminum Oxide Layer is rock hard; My Al pot got that way by accident w/ some Oxi-Clean Free... But, it made it perfect for brewing!