Happy New Year to all, I have a 1 liter starter on stir plate now, it has been going for 24 hours and has formed krusen. I usually leave it go for three days and then put it in the refrigerator to let yeast settle out, then step up with another liter of wort, let that go for three days, put back in refrigerator, let yeast settle then pitch. I got a late start with this latest one, can I just add another 1liter of wort to existing one,let it go for three day's then pitch?
Stepping Up A Starter?
- Thread starter junior
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
bink00
Well-Known Member
That's what I do... If it will fit!
Bink, thank's for the reply, it will fit, using 4 liter jug. Just didn't want to stress yeast.
Not to steal your thread but are you saying to step up the starter you just boil another liter of dme wort, cool it and pitch it on top of the first liter? I want to make a big enough starter for a lager some how but only have a 2liter flask.
Thanks
Thanks
Golddiggie
Well-Known Member
Use yeastcalc.com to figure out what size to make the starter steps. I always let it finish, chill, decant, then add more fresh starter wort onto the cake...
BTW, the only time I've needed to go 2 days with a starter, on the stirplate, is with OLD yeast. I'm talking about 4+ month old yeast. The second step is typically done in under 24 hours (normally in the 12-18 range) and is ready to chill down/cold crash. Going three days for a second (or third) step means you're just spinning the wort after the yeast has finished doing all it can/will. If you plan on brewing several days from now (sounds like next week some time) and the yeast you pitched isn't very old (6-10+ months) then you should be able to cold crash after 24-48 hours on the stirplate. Go a day in the fridge (24 hours), decant and pour fresh starter wort on top. 18-24 hours later, it should be complete and ready to cold crash...
Do you add any nutrient to your starter worts? I find even a little helps in a huge way. I normally add 1/4 tsp to the starter (before adding the DME) for up to 3L starters. Get a good vortex going on the stirplate and it should be finished quickly. Also, don't use an airlock in the flask (if you are). Either a foam stopper or sanitized piece of aluminum foil will do just fine. You want an actual gas exchange to happen. If you are using an airlock, that could explain why your starter growth has been retarded to the extent that it takes 3x (or more) longer to complete.
BTW, the only time I've needed to go 2 days with a starter, on the stirplate, is with OLD yeast. I'm talking about 4+ month old yeast. The second step is typically done in under 24 hours (normally in the 12-18 range) and is ready to chill down/cold crash. Going three days for a second (or third) step means you're just spinning the wort after the yeast has finished doing all it can/will. If you plan on brewing several days from now (sounds like next week some time) and the yeast you pitched isn't very old (6-10+ months) then you should be able to cold crash after 24-48 hours on the stirplate. Go a day in the fridge (24 hours), decant and pour fresh starter wort on top. 18-24 hours later, it should be complete and ready to cold crash...
Do you add any nutrient to your starter worts? I find even a little helps in a huge way. I normally add 1/4 tsp to the starter (before adding the DME) for up to 3L starters. Get a good vortex going on the stirplate and it should be finished quickly. Also, don't use an airlock in the flask (if you are). Either a foam stopper or sanitized piece of aluminum foil will do just fine. You want an actual gas exchange to happen. If you are using an airlock, that could explain why your starter growth has been retarded to the extent that it takes 3x (or more) longer to complete.
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2011
- Messages
- 470
- Reaction score
- 114
To OP: Why do you bother doing these step ups if you have the room? You are losing out on yeast. Go to yeastcalc.com and see how many yeast you get from stepping up a starter rather than just starting out with 2 liters to begin with.
EDIT: Actually, nevermind. It is true assuming there is no extra oxygen coming in. But the advantage of a step up is that you can shake it once you add the new wort to introduce more oxygen. So in reality, you actually will get slightly more yeast with a step up if you use intermittent shaking or stir plates, etc.
EDIT: Actually, nevermind. It is true assuming there is no extra oxygen coming in. But the advantage of a step up is that you can shake it once you add the new wort to introduce more oxygen. So in reality, you actually will get slightly more yeast with a step up if you use intermittent shaking or stir plates, etc.
You aren't "stepping up" the starter if you are using 1 liter each time. You end up with essentially the same amount of yeast after the second step, so there's no point to doing it at all. If your goal is to produce twice the amount of yeast in a single 1 liter flask, you ought to be decanting and saving the first batch of yeast in some other container, then taking a small portion of it and making another 1 liter starter, then combining those two.
Golddiggie
Well-Known Member
Actually, that's how you should NOT step up a starter. I just looked at the Yeast book to confirm. You make the first starter amount, pitch the yeast, chill/cold crash when done, then add fresh starter to the cake. Do NOT pull off the yeast slurry and put only part into the new starter.
For additional steps, even of the same size, your growth factor may be less, but you really only care about getting to the target cell count. Most of the time, I'll make the steps so that they are increasing, and the final step volume easily fits in the flask I'll be using.
TyTanium
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2011
- Messages
- 3,976
- Reaction score
- 609
If you add another liter of yeast food, they're going to multiply and create more cells. Sure, you'd create more cells with a bigger starter, but you'd still boost your total cell count.
Golddiggie
Well-Known Member
Adding more starter wort, without decanting, means you'll not get the same growth level. Decanting then adding fresh starter wort gives you a higher inoculation rate, which will give you a better result. This is also why you DON'T want to use just a portion of the slurry from the first starter step. Besides increasing the risk of contamination/infection by doing so.
Just use yeastcalc.com to figure out what sizes will give you what you need for cell count.
BTW, I was able to use three starter steps with OLD yeast (10+ months old) in a 2L flask (only the final step was close to 2L in size) that would have taken more than 20L as a single step. So, less than 5L total starter volume used, to get more yeast than a >20L starter would have provided. No removing of the slurry and using just a portion of it either. Fermentation was off and going in under 8 hours. Actually needed a blowoff hose connected for the initial 5 days.
TyTanium
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2011
- Messages
- 3,976
- Reaction score
- 609
Agreed. I assumed he was decanting first..no one just adds it directly without decanting, do they?
Golddiggie
Well-Known Member
No one with any experience/knowledge...
IMO/IME, if you're serious about yeast wrangling, pick up the Yeast book. Best ~$13 you'll spend there.
Rebel Brewer has a great price on 5L flasks No more step up with that monster!
No more step up with that monster!
Not necessarily. There is a rough ceiling concentration which the yeast will hit. At some point, it will not produce more viable cells. And all the models I've seen seem to agree that the limit of a 1L starter is considerably lower than the ideal pitching rate of most beers (for 5gal batches).
Golddiggie
Well-Known Member
Rebel Brewer has a great price on 5L flasks
Not true... Use an older package of [liquid] yeast, or look to make something a bit bigger, and that 5L flask will not be enough. I can get more yeast from two steps in a 2L flask than you can in one step with the 5L flask. Plus, it's far easier to fit a 2L (or 3L) flask in a fridge to cold crash.
LLBeanJ
Well-Known Member
Actually, when doing a 3-step starter with old yeast, I'll frequently toss the wort for step 2 right over the top of step 1 without decanting. Then, I'll chill and decant before adding the step 3 wort. I realize this lowers the gravity of the wort, but to me the tradeoff (less time lost to chilling) is worth it.
I pressure can my starter wort and my steps typically are .4L --> .8L --> 1.2L, though I run all of my starters through Yeastcalc to make sure that my cell count to pitch will be in the ball park.
TyTanium
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2011
- Messages
- 3,976
- Reaction score
- 609
Agreed. I've read it. Very handy reference.
Good point. Guess I was just making a simple generalization and assuming that, given low-pitch rate with only 1L starter prior, he would not be at that point yet.
TyTanium
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2011
- Messages
- 3,976
- Reaction score
- 609
Sounds good to me. I've actually done it too a few times for really low-volume starters. Less time is good. I wondered how the presence of alcohol would affect yeast growth, but given the time & effort, I didn't worry about it.
Golddiggie, thank's for the reply. I am using 40 ml of two month old washed yeast slurry for the starter, the reason I let it go three days is that I thought you want to make sure it has finished, I wait for the krusen to drop then wait 24 hours then cool and decant for next addition of wort. I do add nutrient and use a 4 liter jug with a foam stopper in opening. I usually get krusen in a couple of hours, this time it took about ten hours. I just looked at my notes from last batch and I did use 1 liter and then stepped it up by 2 liters, then cooled and pitched. This is my third starter, I first I just did 1 liter, after reading posts I did the 1 liter to 2 liter starter, as far as 24 hours for cold crashing, in my limited experience it usually takes me at least 48 hours to get all the yeast to fall out. It sounds I am pretty close to your instructions except for when the starter finishes, I leave starter on stir plate 24 hours after krusen drops I don't know when you consider it finished, but let me know if my assumption is correct.
Here is what it looks like, as you notice there is still krusen that has not dropped yet.
No one with any experience/knowledge...
IMO/IME, if you're serious about yeast wrangling, pick up the Yeast book. Best ~$13 you'll spend there.
Sorry to semi-threadjack... this book? http://www.amazon.com/dp/0937381969/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
After buying a couple smack-packs of Wyeast, I realized that I need to learn more about washing and using yeast. I don't want to spend $10/batch for yeast :S
Last edited by a moderator:
Golddiggie
Well-Known Member
Probably has more to due with the yeast strain then. I'm using all English strains, almost all rated at least 'high' for flocculation. I also get a really good vortex going in the starter. Basically, I make sure it's centered and then get it spinning as fast as possible. When the bar starts clanking around, and I can't quiet it down by shifting the flask, I back off a little. Except for old yeast (6+ months old) I've never had a starter not going really good in under 18-24 hours. If I'm not using fermcap in the starter, then I get a really good amount of foam on top.
For how fast it settings/compacts in the fridge, it really does matter on the yeast. A strain rated at least 'high' in flocculation will be done/settled in 24 hours (possibly less). Something rated lower than that will take longer. I had a yeast rated medium that took an extra 12-24 hours to get to the level I like.
I buy just one smack pack per batch. With that one pack, I can use a starter to get me the cell count needed.
I would advise looking at the thread/article on freezing yeast. Get an extra smack pack of a strain you use often, step it up a couple of times, and then freeze the slurry (after treating it with a glycerine solution) for use later. I wouldn't do that with a yeast harvest, since you have less way to know what's trub and what's actual yeast. At least that's the case for me (color blind). I'm planning on taking one of the vials out (soon), making a couple of starter steps from it and using that in a batch. I'm thinking of using one of the vials that has a lower yeast layer in it, so that I have less risk.
Besides, stepping it up a few times should give me what I need for the batch I'll be using it in. I MIGHT try to harvest the cake from that.
Last edited by a moderator:
Sudsy, I have done two batches with washed yeast, first batch went to 88% attenuation(1.068-1.008) don't know how it turned out it's only two weeks in bottle. If it come's out good I will be very happy with the money I saved, do a search here for washing yeast.
Last edited by a moderator:
TyTanium
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2011
- Messages
- 3,976
- Reaction score
- 609
Yes, that's the book.
Last edited by a moderator:
TyTanium said:
As a side note, the yeast book recommends a step up proportion of 10x if you really want to maximize yeast growth. So you'd go with a 500ml -> 5L if you wanted a giant cell count.
Then again, you also need to need that many yeast cells, and this advice is based upon growing up from a slant. It's probably unnecessary when you start with 100b healthy cells.
Golddiggie
Well-Known Member
That's why most of us use either mr. malty or yeastcalc to figure out starter sizes/steps.
Probably has more to due with the yeast strain then. I'm using all English strains, almost all rated at least 'high' for flocculation. I also get a really good vortex going in the starter. Basically, I make sure it's centered and then get it spinning as fast as possible. When the bar starts clanking around, and I can't quiet it down by shifting the flask, I back off a little. Except for old yeast (6+ months old) I've never had a starter not going really good in under 18-24 hours. If I'm not using fermcap in the starter, then I get a really good amount of foam on top.
For how fast it settings/compacts in the fridge, it really does matter on the yeast. A strain rated at least 'high' in flocculation will be done/settled in 24 hours (possibly less). Something rated lower than that will take longer. I had a yeast rated medium that took an extra 12-24 hours to get to the level I like.
I buy just one smack pack per batch. With that one pack, I can use a starter to get me the cell count needed.
I would advise looking at the thread/article on freezing yeast. Get an extra smack pack of a strain you use often, step it up a couple of times, and then freeze the slurry (after treating it with a glycerine solution) for use later. I wouldn't do that with a yeast harvest, since you have less way to know what's trub and what's actual yeast. At least that's the case for me (color blind). I'm planning on taking one of the vials out (soon), making a couple of starter steps from it and using that in a batch. I'm thinking of using one of the vials that has a lower yeast layer in it, so that I have less risk.
Now that is logical, why didn't I think of that. Once again thank's for the free knowledge.
Sorry to bump
If i undrstand well....if i realy want to step up the yeast, i cant only add wort, i have to cold crash, decent then pitch new wort. I mean that I cant do a250 ml starter then add 500 ml 24-48 hrs later and finaly add 750 ml ( for a total of 1.5l stater)?
Ill read the yeast book soon...
If i undrstand well....if i realy want to step up the yeast, i cant only add wort, i have to cold crash, decent then pitch new wort. I mean that I cant do a250 ml starter then add 500 ml 24-48 hrs later and finaly add 750 ml ( for a total of 1.5l stater)?
Ill read the yeast book soon...
LLBeanJ
Well-Known Member
Most folks will say that, yes, you need to decant between each step. My starters are typically 2 or 3 steps and I always add the wort for step 2 right on top of step 1 once it has finished and only decant between steps 2 and 3, and if I have time, another decant before pitching. If I don't have time, I'll pitch the whole thing. I also always save a little off from the starter into a sanitized mason jar for a future starter.
a newB question but, I presume you're doing it for harvested yeast (maybe more step), washed yeast and Whitlabe/Wyeast whent there is not enough yeast for a high gravity beer?
When do you just do a one step starter. For exemple a 2liter starter without stepping it? With all the reading I do, I can only see when you use Whitelab/Wyeast and you have a "regular" OG beer. Am I right? I cant do one step with harvested or washed yeast?
Thanks!
LLBeanJ
Well-Known Member
Yes, my multi-step starters, which are pretty much all I do, start with yeast that was saved from a previous starter. The amount of yeast going into the first step is typically 25 to 75 billion cells that may be several months old, so viability is generally calculated to be around 10%, so 2 to 7 billion viable cells. To get this amount of yeast up to pitching quantity will require typically 3 steps (I go .4L --> .8L --> 1.2L). At least that's how I do it. Others may take another approach. This would be the same for washed yeast, unless it is fresh and the cell count is high enough that a single step would suffice.
One step starters will generally work with a fresh vial or smack pack and with harvested slurry pulled from the bottom of your fermentor that may be a few weeks old.
Fortunately, there are excellent free tools available to help you figure out what you need, I.e., yeastcalc.com and Mrmalty.com. If starting with clean yeast, whether a fresh vial or smackpack, saved yeast from a previous starter, or clean washed yeast, yeastcalc is awesome for stepped starters, whether one step or several. If using harvested slurry, I've found that MrMalty is the way to go.
One step starters will generally work with a fresh vial or smack pack and with harvested slurry pulled from the bottom of your fermentor that may be a few weeks old.
Fortunately, there are excellent free tools available to help you figure out what you need, I.e., yeastcalc.com and Mrmalty.com. If starting with clean yeast, whether a fresh vial or smackpack, saved yeast from a previous starter, or clean washed yeast, yeastcalc is awesome for stepped starters, whether one step or several. If using harvested slurry, I've found that MrMalty is the way to go.
curtw
Well-Known Member
So another noob question on stepping, sorry in advance.
First starter will be in a 2L Erlenmeyer flask. Okay, I get to krausen, cold crash it, now I want to go to step 2. But the yeast cake in in my flask; do I need a second flask to boil the next starter to add onto the yeast cake?
Or do I transfer the yeast cake to a temp vessel, and add it back to the (cooled) step 2 starter?
Reading many articles in these forums, still confused.
Thanks!
First starter will be in a 2L Erlenmeyer flask. Okay, I get to krausen, cold crash it, now I want to go to step 2. But the yeast cake in in my flask; do I need a second flask to boil the next starter to add onto the yeast cake?
Or do I transfer the yeast cake to a temp vessel, and add it back to the (cooled) step 2 starter?
Reading many articles in these forums, still confused.
Thanks!
curtw said:
Don't apologize man. That's what these forums are for. I would recommend boiling your second batch of starter wort in a small pot. Cooling it down to room temp and pitching it on top of the yeast cake you already have in your flask then shake it up get the yeast back into suspension and throw her back on your stirplate. Easy peezy japaneezy.
LLBeanJ
Well-Known Member
^ This.
