Dry out a High Gravity Belgian

I'm looking to brew a Belgian IPA for my friends birthday, but as I start to think and play with the calculations, I'm beginning to become a little concerned that I may not get the dryness that I need to match the style without lowering the desired alcohol content. I'm shooting for around 9% or higher abv and would like to have a FG of 1.010 or lower (Making OG around 1.080, give or take).

I know that a higher water ratio to the mash and a long mash around 148 will give me a more fermentable wort and a dryer beer, but will it give the dry finish that I'm looking for from such a high beer?

I'll be making a 3L starter for this so that there will be more than enough cells to get to work, and am assuming 78% - 80% AA. I'm looking at WLP550, WLP570, and WLP500.

Looking to split base malt 50/50 Belgian 2 row and Belgian Pils (6.5 lb each) with a lb of clear candi sugar, about a half lb of biscuit, and 12 oz of Crystal 60

Bump up the sugar. Last quadrupel I made had about 22% sugar, by weight, started at 1.095, finished at 1.010. It was "dry enough" but nicely balanced. Also, ditch the crystal malt if you want it to finish dry.

A lot of Belgian beers, like Chimay Blue, for instance, have around 90% apparent attenuation. Just control your fermentation temps, and you won't end up with off flavors from the high amount of sugar.

As Nateo said, bump up the sugar. Also, don't do a mash out (if you normally do one). The low mash temp (148 F for 90 min) and the lack of a mash out will allow the enzymes to keep working prior to heating up the wort to proper temp and therefore increase the fermentability of the wort. I did this on my Dubbel and got 87% attenuation (unintentionally....)...

Excellent, I've never brewed a Belgian other than a Wit, I had no idea that such a large amount of sugars could utilized in the boil.

Since the biscuit has no enzymes, would any of y'all know if there would be enough surplus amylase enzyme in the 2 row/pils malt to convert the biscuit?

There will be plenty of enzymes for the biscuit. Also, you probably already know, but add the sugar near flame-out.

I've brewed a triple a number of times that starts out at 1.083-1.085 and has almost always finished between 1.010-1.012. The one time it didn't finish in that range was it got down in the single digits. It's a dangerously easy beer to drink for how high its alcohol content is. Here are a few things I do that I believe help with the attenuation I get.

-As others have said, use more sugar. My recipe calls for 15%, but others use even more with success. Just don't get it much higher than 20%, unless you want to start experimenting. Crystal isn't needed here either. Boil longer if you want a more complex malty flavor.

-Mash even lower. Mashing at 146 would not be unreasonable. I use 148, and while it works for me, if I ever had problems with this attenuating, this would be one of the first variables I'd change.

-I use 3787, and build up a good .5-.75 gallon starter for mine. This yeast gets great attenuation if you treat it right. Don't be afraid to ferment these warm. I just pitch cool (a little under 65F) and put it in a room at roughly 65F and let it do its thing. Sure, it often gets into the upper 70s. That's fine.

-Another trick is to hold off on the sugar additions until after primary fermentation has slowed down. Basically, when you notice the fermentation starting to slow and crawl (probably day 3-6 or thereabouts), boil your sugar in enough water to make a thin syrup. Cool it and add to the fermentor, swirling it enough to make sure it gets integrated. At this point you can move the fermentor do a warmer room, if possible.

-Don't let the yeast drop in temp quickly, especially with 3787. Take gravity readings if you want to cold crash or lager, and make sure you're at a good and stable gravity to do so. I don't really recommend doing either, though many breweries do with great success.

-If your beer starts stalling higher than you'd like, simply warm it up a bit and swirl the fermentor some, a few times a day. If that doesn't work, taste it. If it tastes good, don't do anything silly like add champagne yeast. Numbers don't matter; it's the flavor you're looking for, yes?

-You'll have no problems with the biscuit malt. Plenty of enzymes. The biscuit malt even has a little of its own, most of the time, just not enough to self convert.

Thanks Guld, that's all I need. My next question was going to be regarding adding sugar in steps, but you beat me to it.
Are there any tricks for measuring the OG tho when doing so? Take the OG+Syrup gravity= SG in order to calc abv once fermenting is done? There's probably a better way so proportions can be taken into account, no?

I doubt that I'll need to step the sugar additions tho, not looking to go over 10%, but i'll probably use the technique when I brew my barley wine later this month (shooting for 15%).

As others have said. Up the sugar to 20%. Plain table sugar works great.

Don't use the crystal.

In the past I've used wlp500, 530 and 550 to make a tripel. All work great. WLP550 is slightly more attenutive then the other Belgian strains.

Pitch a bigf starter and oxygenate your wort.

Start the ferment in the mid 60's and slowly ramp up the temp into the low 70's over a week. Hold it in the low to mid 70's until it finished. Temp makes a big difference in controlling the harsh alcohols and getting full attenuation.

zgardener said:

Are there any tricks for measuring the OG tho when doing so?

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Sugar's pretty consistent in the gravity you get from it, so you can use software (or a chart) if you like. Just keep a measure of your OG and volume and the weight (of sugar) and volume of the syrup. Then all you have to do it add.

GuldTuborg said:

Sugar's pretty consistent in the gravity you get from it, so you can use software (or a chart) if you like. Just keep a measure of your OG and volume and the weight (of sugar) and volume of the syrup. Then all you have to do it add.

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Thanks for the tip, this has been a chief reason for not doing step additions and really big beers in the past (kinda dumb, but I like to know my #'s). Now is the right time to try it out so I can age them all year until next Dec/Jan.

(G1V1+G2V2)/(V1+V2) = combined gravity, where G is gravity and V is volume.

zgardener said:

I'm looking to brew a Belgian IPA for my friends birthday, but as I start to think and play with the calculations, I'm beginning to become a little concerned that I may not get the dryness that I need to match the style without lowering the desired alcohol content. I'm shooting for around 9% or higher abv and would like to have a FG of 1.010 or lower (Making OG around 1.080, give or take).

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https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f71/houblon-chouffe-aka-hopchewy-150742/index3.html#post2459221
SG 1.078
FG 1.006
IBU: 58
9.54% ABV

Attenuation
91.84% ADF - 76.05%RDF

Follow as posted and it works each & everytime since 2007.

Here's a quick Recipe I Pounded out
at 80% BHE i should get an OG of 1.088
assuming 88% AA an fg of 1.010 and abv of 10.4%

6.5 # Belgian Pale
6.5 # Belgian Pils
.75 # Belgian Biscuit
2.5 # Belgian Clear Candi Sugar (10 min until boil end)

FWH 1 oz Simcoe
.25 oz Simcoe (75)
1 oz Styrian Goldings (15)
2 oz Sterling (15)
2 oz Styrian Goldings (5)
1 oz Styrian Goldings (FO)
.75 oz Simcoe (DH)
1 oz Styrian Goldings (DH)

WLP550 (3 qt starter)

Mash at 146-148 for 2 hours
NO MASH OUT
2qt/lb
run off total 7.5 gallons
Batch sparge 155-160
75 min boil

Clear candi is a watse of money, just use plain cane sugar. Besides that, looks like everything else has been hit.

El_Exorcisto said:

Clear candi is a watse of money, just use plain cane sugar. Besides that, looks like everything else has been hit.

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Would corn sugar or raw sugar (a la sugar in the raw) ferment or taste different from just cane sugar?

I really don't know. I don't see enough flavor contribution from the raw product, so the extra cost isn't really justified. Dark candi however, is a completely different animal.

GuldTuborg said:

-Another trick is to hold off on the sugar additions until after primary fermentation has slowed down. Basically, when you notice the fermentation starting to slow and crawl (probably day 3-6 or thereabouts), boil your sugar in enough water to make a thin syrup. Cool it and add to the fermentor, swirling it enough to make sure it gets integrated. At this point you can move the fermentor do a warmer room, if possible.

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^this^

I do this with my saison and it works like a charm. Let the yeast chew up all the maltose they can, then give 'em the simple sugars as dessert.

If it doesn't finish low enough, I wonder if you can pitch some Wyeast 3711 to finish it out. It's a saison yeast, but I don't see that as an issue with this beer. When I use it, I finish out around 1.000 and 9% abv. BONE DRY.

So, I'm resurrecting this thread, hopefully someone will catch a glimpse and offer some guidance.

I harvested the yeast from a Belgian Tripel that I got from the Michael Jackson Rare Beer club. I made a one liter starter, then stepped that up to a gallon starter, I yielded about two cups of slurry.

The OG of this beer ended up being right at 1.100 (put in 4# of table sugar, right at 20% of fermentables), and after two weeks is at 1.030, I took it out of the fermentation chamber, set at 70 - 72, and moved it into my bedroom, temp is right around 74 at any given time, and gave it a good little rock to rouse the yeast, and will be checking to see if fermentation has stopped, or if it's just very slow.

If fermentation has halted, I am thinking about adding either Bretts B or Bretts C to finish it up and dry out (hopefully to about 1.010). If I did take this route, how long would I expect for the Bretts to reach terminal gravity? This would be my first time experimenting with these strains, so not exactly sure what to expect.

What did you use as your recipe, eventually, including yeast?

I'll have to get back to you on that for exact recipe, but something really close to:

9# Belgian Pils
7# Belgian Pale Ale
.5# CaraMunich
4# Table Sugar

1 tab whirlfloc and 1 capsule of yeast nutrient at 15 min in boil

Dont remember hop schedule or usage off the top of my head.

Yeast, not sure on strain, was harvested from a Draeckenier Tripel (7.5% abv)
Yeast starter was a simple 1#/gallon DME and filtered water with yeast nutrient.

Fermented at 68 for 3 days, 70 for 7 days, 72 for 4 days, then moved out of chamber to bedroom, constantly kept at 72-74 F for past 3 days.

You've had ridiculously good info so far, and im drooling to taste what you've made. Only thing I can add is to read Brew Like a Monk if you haven't. Awesome book.

zgardener said:

Yeast...was harvested from a Draeckenier Tripel (7.5% abv)

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Sorry, I don't have a clue what kind of yeast is used. Others' comments seem to indicate a high level of attenuation in the commercial product, so the yeast ought to be capable of going lower. How did you mash and aerate?

This is not helpful for you right now, but maybe in the future it will be. The surest way to get a low FG is to start with a low OG. Chimay Blue starts at ~ 1.085 and ends around ~1.007, IIRC. I've moved away from high OGs on my Belgians lately, instead looking at lower OGs and lower FG than I was previously targeting. I rarely brew anything over 1.090 anymore.

I've found the difference between actual and potential fermentability to be a bigger factor in the beer tasting "too sweet" or "too dry" than the FG in absolute terms. For instance, my dark strong that went from 1.090 to 1.010 tastes drier than my saison that went from 1.055 to 1.004.

I mashed around 146 I believe, maybe 148, again, I'm at work, so dont have my brew log with me. Did a 90 min mash thick, 1.1qt/lb.

Aeration very well could have been an issue. I don't have an air stone, so I really just created a whirlpool and then shook/rocked the fermenter for about 5 min.

The beer is still very cloudy, not even beginning to clear up, so I'm assuming the yeast are still working, I'll take a hydrometer sample today to either verify my assumption or prove otherwise.

I've had so many perfect fermentations in the past, I guess I got spoiled and forgot the golden rule of homebrewing, patience patience patience.

So I pitched a vial of Brett C, took it down to 1024 from 1028, never used Brett before, but it's been about 3 or 4 weeks and the gravity hasn't gotten any lower, should I allow more time, add more brets, or take then be all end all route and pitch some bacteria, maybe some Lacto?

zgardener said:

So I pitched a vial of Brett C, took it down to 1024 from 1028, never used Brett before, but it's been about 3 or 4 weeks and the gravity hasn't gotten any lower, should I allow more time, add more brets, or take then be all end all route and pitch some bacteria, maybe some Lacto?

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Lacto doesn't work over 6% ABV, IIRC. Brett will chew threw some of those sugars slowly for the next 3-6 months. A lot of people will condition with Brett for a year.

Would the one vial that I pitched be sufficient? or would another one or two yeild better results?

I was also considering making a small, but strong starter for a vial of WLP099 Super High gravity yeast, and pitching that in, anyone have experience with this yeast?

afr0byte said:

There will be plenty of enzymes for the biscuit. Also, you probably already know, but add the sugar near flame-out.

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If you add it at flame out make sure you adjust it accordingly in your software to account for higher hop utilization due to the lower gravity during boil.