Baron von BeeGee
Beer Bully
But I did slap a copy of New Lager Brewing while typing it! Actually, Noonan would probably recommend fly sparging...beer4breakfast said:You forgot to say "Amen"
Why is batch sparging better/faster ?
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Excellent. Thats what its all about. If you need anymore questions answered, just holler! I think you can get rid of your holding cooler and go straight to kettle. Put fire under the kettle as soon as your 1st batch sparge hits it. That will help save alot of time....Good to see you thinking! Nice work!!beer4breakfast said:My method takes a long time and is backbreaking labor. I'm convinced I came up with one of the most time consuming and difficult ways to batch sparge.
Man, I totally need to start warming up the first runnings before the sparge is done!
I attempted to do that today with my small batch, and got scared that it would start to boil (about 2 gal) before my sparge gone done and in the kettle. I had it on high, then turned it down because I thought I was going too fast...then once I added my sparge water it took almost 30 minutes to start boiling. I never did get a good boil, just some rolling bubbles, but not my typical turkey fryer boil.
For what it's worth to THIS discussion:
I used a 5gal cooler with a SS braid that I hacked apart from the Home Depot toilet plumbing section. I mashed in with about 10 qt for 75 minutes. I drained completely, then added 4 gal of sparge water for 15 minutes. I stirred after pouring my sparge water in very vigorously. Just calculated efficiency - 75%
Not too bad considering my relative newbie status, craptacular equipment, uneven sparge volume (i'm going to try that next time!), and piss poor planning.
I attempted to do that today with my small batch, and got scared that it would start to boil (about 2 gal) before my sparge gone done and in the kettle. I had it on high, then turned it down because I thought I was going too fast...then once I added my sparge water it took almost 30 minutes to start boiling. I never did get a good boil, just some rolling bubbles, but not my typical turkey fryer boil.
For what it's worth to THIS discussion:
I used a 5gal cooler with a SS braid that I hacked apart from the Home Depot toilet plumbing section. I mashed in with about 10 qt for 75 minutes. I drained completely, then added 4 gal of sparge water for 15 minutes. I stirred after pouring my sparge water in very vigorously. Just calculated efficiency - 75%
Not too bad considering my relative newbie status, craptacular equipment, uneven sparge volume (i'm going to try that next time!), and piss poor planning.
brewhead said:
Actually, efficiency is the main reason professional brewers do not usually use batch sparging.
There is a lot of material on this matter. It is really a fact not an opinion. The thing is, it depends on a Properly set up system. There is a science to this and most homebrewers are unlikely to get that picky about it. Though I do know a few.
You CAN get the same efficiency but it requires using extra sparge water and longer boil times. The risk with extra sparge water is a thin run off which changes PH and can extract tannins from the grain. Which is the whole point of stopping the sparge at 1.010 gravity (I think thats the right gravity..have to check my notes). Its the PH change not the Gravity value that causes astringency from tannin extraction.
Big brewers like (ugh) Budweiser's crush grain very, very fine and use a "Mash Filter" and do not sparge the same way home brewer's or micros do. They get a 90-95% efficiency this way. I believe that figure may be as high as 98% actually.
A local brew pub's brewing is done by a retired brewmaster from Labbatt's. I've had numerous conversations on this matter with him.
Also check out Principles of Brewing Science, Second Edition: A Study of Serious Brewing Issues by George Fix for more info on PH and astringency
IowaStateFan
Well-Known Member
jezter6 said:
Just curious, what's wrong with having the first runnings starting to boil before you get the second runnings added to the kettle? It sure would seem that you'd save a lot of time if you put the fire to the boil kettle while you're waiting for the sparge.
FWIW, I'm not yet an all-grain brewer but I'm slowly gathering the equipment to do so. Before I read this thread I was absolutely certain that I would batch sparge, but seeing what people have said I may rethink that. Despite some of the religious fervor and strong opinions, I too have found this thread valuable.
Monster Mash
Well-Known Member
There is nothing wrong with starting the burners after the first sparge, even if it starts to boil before you get your second runnings in.
The issue of equipment required to mash and sparge all grain keeps popping up. Even though I have a keggle based HERM system, I brewed in the kitchen this winter and thus I too had to scrounge together bits and pieces.
The total equipment I used for AG, in addition to what I would need for extract brewing, is the following:
1) voltmeter thermometer
2) cooler with a SS braid in the bottom
3) pot to heat sparge water.
4) pressure cooker to generate steam.
This allows me to do complex step mashes with steam heat no less !
We owned everything except the cooler and the braid already. Total outlay to do AG over extract, about $25.
The total equipment I used for AG, in addition to what I would need for extract brewing, is the following:
1) voltmeter thermometer
2) cooler with a SS braid in the bottom
3) pot to heat sparge water.
4) pressure cooker to generate steam.
This allows me to do complex step mashes with steam heat no less !
We owned everything except the cooler and the braid already. Total outlay to do AG over extract, about $25.
So, I tried doing the 'even water' batch sparge technique today. Same recipe (well, minus .25# of candy sugar), and this time I came out at like 65% eff.
I'm going back to my old method which is somewhere around 1/3 mash 2/3 sparge.
I'm going back to my old method which is somewhere around 1/3 mash 2/3 sparge.
Baron von BeeGee
Beer Bully
Blktre, batch sparging is faster...there's no question about it. A lot of experienced brewers have proven this time and time again. Can it be done in a way that it's not faster? Of course, especially if you're just getting your process down.Blktre said:
I can have my wort boiling within 20m of taking my first running. You can't do that with fly sparging and get any kind of reasonable efficiency.
Is efficiency better with fly sparging? Yes, on most (but not all) systems.
Is fly sparging more traditional? Yes.
Is fly sparging more set and forget? I'd say so.
Does fly sparging require more equipment? Yes.
Which is better? Whichever is better for you. No need to make an issue out of something that just isn't an issue.
Baron von BeeGee
Beer Bully
LMAO! Well, it's not my day to defeat your invincible ignorance, so carry on...Blktre said:
BTW, if fly sparging isn't more efficient or 'set and forget', I really have no idea why anybody would do it other than masochism.
uwmgdman
Well-Known Member
Once I saw a troll.........and $%^&*( was his name-o!
FlyGuy
Well-Known Member
Baron von BeeGee said:LMAO! Well, it's not my day to defeat your invincible ignorance, so carry on...
BTW, if fly sparging isn't more efficient or 'set and forget', I really have no idea why anybody would do it other than masochism.
Or maybe you misinterpretted what you said. Perhaps he actually meant that his fly sparge gear WASN'T more efficient and it WASN'T very set and forget. It might have been that he was trying to be humble.
But perhaps not.
Regardless, I really liked your summary of the essential differences between methods. Thanks for distilling the whole discussion down into just the key elements (that really helps clarify things for me, anyways).
Blktre said:
Sorry, but calling the Baron inexperienced is .. well...funny.
Not mocking your setup at all.
... inexperienced?? Still ROFLAO..
Needed a good chuckle in the morning. (Especially since our "Warm Weather" forecast has turned into 3 inches of snow asnd it's to cold to brew with the garage door open)
Monster Mash said:
My first and second runnings are all being drained into the same cook pot. Doing so gives me a look at the boil volume I'm getting and I can continue to sparge until I have my 6 - 6 1/2 gallons. Then I set to boil.
Longer? Of course. But I love brewing. If I want quick, there's a QT at the corner that sells beer.
As far as preferences, I batch sparge out of simplicity. I'll only say that I've converted two people at work into taking up homebrewing recenty...and moving to AG on their 3rd (or maybe it was their 4th) batches. The simplicity of batch sparging was easy for them (and me) to grasp and put into action.
Heat some water and soak some grains...
Drain the sugary water and heat some more water...
Add the hot water and soak the grains again...
Drain the sugary water again...etc...etc...etc...until you have about 6 gallons...
Boil it.
Cool it
Add yeast.
Not that's a process even I could visualize.
So how many FLY sparges has Baron done ? Is he an experienced FLY sparger ?
Of the subject, Baron says:
That sounds like secondhand experience to me. He doesn't say, " I tried both and I found that..."
I like my information straight from the horses mount, ie people who are proficient at both. Or at least lets talk about what we have done ourselves.
I gave up on this thread but It's got me shaking my head.
Baron von BeeGee
Beer Bully
Where did I indicate I haven't done fly sparging? My first dozen AG batches were fly sparging. I switched to batch sparging for the simplicity and time savings which I've seen firsthand. My efficiency is basically unchanged other than slightly lower on grists with lots of wheat, which I can live with.brewman ! said:
Guys, I'm not saying one method or the other is better. I do triple decoctions which are even more poopoo-ed than batch or fly sparging combined. I'm saying do what feels right for you, but batch sparging will offer a time savings over fly sparging if both are done properly.
Baron von BeeGee said:
If this doesn't end this damn thread, then it's absolutely freakin' hopeless.
Thank you for chiming in, Baron.
Laughing at the new guy on the block was to be expected. But youve never seen or brewed on my setup(s) so so im sure you cant mock it. Ive wasted many hours on other forums on this subject, so i had to throw in some jabs here too. But for real, ive got other things to worry about, like getting our 2.2 barrel brewery up and running by the time the Roselare strain is released again. Brewing twice for a oak barrel sux.Dennys Fine Consumptibles said:
I actually cant believe you didnt man up and roll out regardles if it was snowing:cross:
Torchiest
Well-Known Member
I'm still a major n00b compared to most of your AG guys, but I just read this entire thread, and despite a few hiccups here and there, I'd say overall it's a very good, informative, and calmly discussed thread. A few people have gotten attitudes, but I've learned a ton in the last half hour or so it took me to read everything. Thanks for a good debate. I feel like I've kinda got a clue about AG brewing now. 
Why is this a damn thread and why do we want it to end ? Its a discussion of the merits and downfalls of various sparging methods ! Is there a problem with that ? If you don't like that subject or the thread content, then don't participate !
I've learned stuff form both sides on this topic and I started brewing in 1997 !
I really think people need to learn to open their minds a bit. When I brewed my first beer, there wasn't even such a thing as batch sparging. Everyone back then thought fly sparging was THE ONLY way to sparge. Who knows, if we opened our eyes and minds a bit we might learn something and develop something new again !
Nobody is attacking anyone's merit as a brewer. We are discussing sparging methods ! Check you ego at the start of the thread.
Sheesh !
Baron von BeeGee
Beer Bully
At this point I'm right there with you.orfy said:
Tony
Well-Known Member
..........
EdWort
Well-Known Member
Baron von BeeGee said:
Works for me! My little 5.5 gallons system works best with batch sparging. I may try fly, but I'm hitting 80% so I don't see a reason to change at this time.
Don
Well-Known Member
I batch for me, not that it's the best for you or anyone else,, But for me, it's simple and time savings on brew day.
Blktre said:
Like I was saying. I wasn;t mocking you or yoru setup.
Just saying calling Baron inexperienced was not accurate.And yeah. it's windy and snowy and the damn mash gets cold and the boil takes longer so... I wait another day or so. I for one prefer fly sparging with my 3tier rig.
2.2 bbl? very nice. any pics? we're brewing junkies on here. love to see the set up.
The brewery I used to work for did a batch sparge of a very heavy beer. They did so to see if they could get more efficency ouy of remixing the grains and another sparge. The mash was very thick. Not sure if they got the effiency they wanted though since the next batch of that beer was done on the fly. Mainly they thought that breaking up the grain bed would reduce the possibility of a stuck mash. They could have paused the sparge mid way then recirculated/settled then continued sparging, but they thought the batch sparge method might be quicker.
Over all though they don't usually attempt a batch sparge as they are known to be less efficient.
And I've been away from this forum for 3 months and it's gotten this heated? (lol..not that it's really _that_ heated)
RDWHAHB everybody. Or if you are out at least grab a nice micro.
Dennys Fine Consumptibles said:2.2 bbl? very nice. any pics? we're brewing junkies on here. love to see the set up.
I dont have any updated pics, but here is some equipment when we dragged them in. They currently are setup in my shop, cleaned, and ready for TC SS plumbing and some electronics....were gonna fly sparge this with a contiunes bottom fired mash using whirlcool chilling...
2 100gallon SS tanks
2 2.2 barrel double glycol jacketed fermentors
1 80g SS tank
1 250g dairy cooler for MT
Very nice. Uh..supplying your friends? lol
A neighbor has been wanting to help me build such a system. He's a retiree that had an AC, plumbing, metalsmithing and some other company. I just don't have the room.
Really, goverments should just let us start neighborhood breweries.
A neighbor has been wanting to help me build such a system. He's a retiree that had an AC, plumbing, metalsmithing and some other company. I just don't have the room.
Really, goverments should just let us start neighborhood breweries.
Tony
Well-Known Member
Nice!!!!!!!!!
Does this table sum up the various methods as far as time is concerned ?
http://picasaweb.google.com/beermeister1/SteamMashing/photo#5038279487798328562
http://picasaweb.google.com/beermeister1/SteamMashing/photo#5038279487798328562
I batch sparged my blue moon clone last night. I did 3 drains in total.
I circulated a few quarts in a 3 gallon batch and then opened the valve to drain into the boil kettle and promptly got a stuck bed ! Remember the Blue Moon clone recipe is 50-50% wheat/2row.
I stirred the bed, recirculated less and drained a bit slower and it didn't stick.
I was surprised at how slowly the bed drained even at wide open. It isn't whoosh the bed is drained. Its pretty slow.
I let the mash sit for 5 minutes after I refilled it. I didn't no stir between mashes.
Efficiency sucked. I got 1.050 from 6 pounds of grain for 3 gallons of water. That's only 25 points per pound. I tasted the mash when I was done and it was a tad sweeter than it usually is.
One this I did different than my regular brews is I didn't treat the sparge water with gypsum. So maybe the pH of the mash was off a bit and that cut down the conversion ?
I didn't see any real advantage to batch sparge over fly sparge. I'll try it again and see if it works better on a beer with an easier flowing bed.
I circulated a few quarts in a 3 gallon batch and then opened the valve to drain into the boil kettle and promptly got a stuck bed ! Remember the Blue Moon clone recipe is 50-50% wheat/2row.
I stirred the bed, recirculated less and drained a bit slower and it didn't stick.
I was surprised at how slowly the bed drained even at wide open. It isn't whoosh the bed is drained. Its pretty slow.
I let the mash sit for 5 minutes after I refilled it. I didn't no stir between mashes.
Efficiency sucked. I got 1.050 from 6 pounds of grain for 3 gallons of water. That's only 25 points per pound. I tasted the mash when I was done and it was a tad sweeter than it usually is.
One this I did different than my regular brews is I didn't treat the sparge water with gypsum. So maybe the pH of the mash was off a bit and that cut down the conversion ?
I didn't see any real advantage to batch sparge over fly sparge. I'll try it again and see if it works better on a beer with an easier flowing bed.
