What is the science of an extract? Combinations?

Williams 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Mike-H

Mike-H

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2006
Messages
225
Reaction score
9
Location
Syracuse, NY
My question is a little hard to explain. Looking at AHS website, there are only maybe 6-8 different types of extracts that ship with all of their kits and clone kits. All of their clone recipe's come with one, or a mixture, this would give a finite number of possible combinations. It would seem that you are just trying to get "close" to the actual beer when doing a clone brew with extract because of these finite number of extracts. Now, if you went all grain, you could possibly duplicate the exact ingredients, that you could not possibly do with extract right? I know that the grain steeping attempts to add the specific grain flavor to the beer, but you are still brewing the majority with a base extract. I guess i'm asking, can we really duplicate a beer when brewing with extract, to me it would not seem possible.....?? I think all we're doing is making slightly different versions of beer with the same extracts (and different yeasts, hops etc...). Would like to hear insight on this, and i'd love to be shown wrong on this topic because I enjoy extract brewing.

-Mike
 
I am VERY new at this and I would think with all-grain you could actually clone the recipes, but with extract your not really doing a clone, just something close :)
 
All-grain also allows much more control to match a recipe. For instance, one example would be mash temperature. By varying mash temp you can control the fermentabilty of the wort, thus defining your FG and mouthfeel/body of the beer. With extract you can't do that.
 
You can duplicate any beer with extract and specialty grains (or perhaps I should say a small mash). Then there is Williams Brewing, they carry a dozen extracts and have kits for even more. Don't forget, there are a limited number of grains as well.

Matching a commercial beer isn't a matter of matching the exact recipe. A good example is Austin Home Brew's Rogue Mocha Porter clone (mini-mash). The grain bill is simpler, the hops are different, the yeast is different. The beer's the same.

Personally, except for RMP, I don't do clones. I originally made it for someone else. Now I make it for myself because I like it better than any other porter recipe I've made.
 
The extracts are made from the same grains used in all grain recipes. In the same context that David used, you are going for the same flavor, not the same recipe. Steeping grains, mixing extracts, hop additions at different times, different yeasts. It is a lot of combinations. I think with some beers, it is a waste to do AG, you can do a partial mash, or a mini mash. If the beer is about hops, why waste your time extracting wort from whole grains?
 
Sean said:
The extracts are made from the same grains used in all grain recipes. In the same context that David used, you are going for the same flavor, not the same recipe. Steeping grains, mixing extracts, hop additions at different times, different yeasts. It is a lot of combinations. I think with some beers, it is a waste to do AG, you can do a partial mash, or a mini mash. If the beer is about hops, why waste your time extracting wort from whole grains?
Click to expand...
Wow, there's a loaded set of statements! Extract brewing certainly has merit - a lot of merit. Also, you can come remarkably close to duplicating commercial recipes with extracts and adjuncts alone. Extract is a bit limiting in that you can't control the process by which the majority of your fermentables are obtained. The combination of grains, mash temperatures, rest times, and mash techniques all contribute to the flavor and body of the resulting beer. These are variables you do not have control over when you do an extract brew. To play devil's advocate, if you are doing a partial mash, it could be said that you are wasting time mashing such a small amount of grain when the same amount of time and same techniques could net you an all grain brew with infinitely more control. I'm not disagreeing entirely, but you are disregarding a lot of the benefits of an all grain brew.

I will, however, disagree completely with the idea that "beer is about hops." Certainly not! If beer were only about hops, we would never use grain, we'd just make hop tea and add some vodka. Hop flavor and bitterness must balance against malty sweetness and adjunct flavors. The choice of hops and their amounts can often make or break a recipe, but hops are NOT what beer is all about.
 
Yuri_Rage said:
Wow, there's a loaded set of statements! Extract brewing certainly has merit - a lot of merit. Also, you can come remarkably close to duplicating commercial recipes with extracts and adjuncts alone. Extract is a bit limiting in that you can't control the process by which the majority of your fermentables are obtained. The combination of grains, mash temperatures, rest times, and mash techniques all contribute to the flavor and body of the resulting beer. These are variables you do not have control over when you do an extract brew. To play devil's advocate, if you are doing a partial mash, it could be said that you are wasting time mashing such a small amount of grain when the same amount of time and same techniques could net you an all grain brew with infinitely more control. I'm not disagreeing entirely, but you are disregarding a lot of the benefits of an all grain brew.

I will, however, disagree completely with the idea that "beer is about hops." Certainly not! If beer were only about hops, we would never use grain, we'd just make hop tea and add some vodka. Hop flavor and bitterness must balance against malty sweetness and adjunct flavors. The choice of hops and their amounts can often make or break a recipe, but hops are NOT what beer is all about.
Click to expand...

I suppose I should have said "if the recipe is about hops, one might get the same results from using an extract, and some steeping grains to get your basic medium.?"

For example: one of the Dogfish Head IPAs -- It is about the hops, not the malt.

In regards to your devil's advocate re. it is irellevant, as we are talking about extract brewing, which has its merits. And can lead to AG brewing if the individual wishes to persue it.
 
Apologies for the misunderstanding regarding hops intensive recipes.

The rest of my post seems quite relevant to the topic at hand, though you may disagree with my opinions. He asked for insight - I offered.
 
Mike-H said:
My question is a little hard to explain. Looking at AHS website, there are only maybe 6-8 different types of extracts that ship with all of their kits and clone kits. All of their clone recipe's come with one, or a mixture, this would give a finite number of possible combinations. It would seem that you are just trying to get "close" to the actual beer when doing a clone brew with extract because of these finite number of extracts. Now, if you went all grain, you could possibly duplicate the exact ingredients, that you could not possibly do with extract right? I know that the grain steeping attempts to add the specific grain flavor to the beer, but you are still brewing the majority with a base extract. I guess i'm asking, can we really duplicate a beer when brewing with extract, to me it would not seem possible.....?? I think all we're doing is making slightly different versions of beer with the same extracts (and different yeasts, hops etc...). Would like to hear insight on this, and i'd love to be shown wrong on this topic because I enjoy extract brewing.

-Mike
Click to expand...

Extracts are just condensed wort. There aren't very many types because there aren't many types needed. Most beers are made with most of the grain being a certain base malt (usually 2-row barley), then some other small amounts of specialty grains added for flavor. Your malt extract is just a wort made with the base malt, then boiled down to a syrup or dried to a powder. If you have a recipe that uses 8 lbs of 2-row malt and 2 lbs of crystal malt, you will get basically the same beer using 6lbs of liquid malt extract and 2 lbs of crystal malt. The only difference, as was pointed out, is that when you make your own wort from base malt, you have more control over the variables.

But really, the thing to keep in mind is that you can pretty much make almost any beer using just light male extract. The specific characterisitcs of the beer don't come from the base malt, but the hops, specialty grains, adjuncts, yeast, etc.
 
Thanks all for your insight. It really cleared up a lot for me. I have much more confidence in my extract brewing now :)
 
Ok, my next question on this, since it seems that we are going for the "same flavor" not the same "recipe" (Which I kinda find hard to believe that there is more than one path leading to the same destination, but i'll take you word for it :p )

How in the world did Austin Homebrew make all of those clone recipe's! Are they simply guessing? Where did all of these come from, did they actually spend time brewing these and comparing to the original? Out of all th ose clones, there has to be a recipe that NO ONE has ever purchased. I am very skeptical that much "reasearch" was put into these at all.
 

Similar threads

Luxy
Commercial extract vs bulk extract
Replies
22
Views
2K
Luxy
Luxy
Lollim96
Looking for beer recipes which I can use mostly Amber Malt extract in? Got lots to use up!
Replies
20
Views
1K
BrewnWKopperKat
BrewnWKopperKat
T
Re-intro
Replies
2
Views
214
redrocker652002
R
Gytaryst
First Brew in 5 years - I Have Questions
Replies
14
Views
861
Gytaryst
Gytaryst
D
Extract Brewing high original specific gravity
Replies
5
Views
568
mac_1103
mac_1103
CornyKegs 300

Latest posts

Back
Top