Full boils in extract brewing

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linusstick

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After reading that thread from earlier, I'm curious as to how you would go about doing a full boil on an extract beer. I've done a few all grain beers so I'm assuming you just add enough water to get about 6 gallons of wort and boil for an hour (losing about a gallon in the process). What I don't get if this is the case is how the hop utilization remains intact since you are boiling the same amount of hops in almost double the liquid? Maybe (probably) I'm way off here?
 
It's a lot easier to calculate the water requirements when using brewing software of some sort; I have to manually tell Beersmith that I'm *not* doing a full boil most of the time.

Hop utilization can be tweaked by shifting the timing of the extract additions, if nothing else. I'm curious how you get the impression that doing a full-boil with extract would be a greater amount of liquid than doing one with all-grain. Full-boil is full-boil; you're using the same amount of liquid whether it's all-grain or extract.
 
glad you brought up this question. i have asked this many times at my local home brew ship, but never get a good answer.
 
I can think of a number of reasons:
1) It's easier to get extract to dissolve with more liquid.
2) It makes hop utilization calculations simpler.
3) No requirement to sanitize topoff liquid.
4) Beersmith always seems to assume it's a full-boil, so when I forget to tell it otherwise, my process gets screwed :).
 
You may not want to steep grain in the full boil volume. pH could be a problem.

You should always run anything you make trough a calculator. It will help you understand and gauge your system. You'll be able to put numbers to a resulting brews, IBU snd SRM. After some practice you will be able to make adjustments prior to brewing that make beer more the way you want it.
 
Most extract recipes tell you to do a partial boil then top-up later with cool water. So their hop schedule is calculated with a partial boil in mind.

When doing full boils hop utilization will increase. Some people compensate by reducing the bittering hops by 10 to 15 percent when doing a full boil. Leave the flavor/aroma hops the same.

When I brewed extract batches doing full boils I would move the 10 to 15 percent of hops removed from the bittering addition and add them to the aroma addition.
 
I tried steeping grains in full 5 gallons. I had an astringency problem, that's the only cause I could trace it to.
 
I can think of a number of reasons:
1) It's easier to get extract to dissolve with more liquid.
2) It makes hop utilization calculations simpler.
3) No requirement to sanitize topoff liquid.
4) Beersmith always seems to assume it's a full-boil, so when I forget to tell it otherwise, my process gets screwed :).
Brewtarget has custom equipment setups or you can use one of the two default extract setups, one for full boil (5 gal) and one for partial boil (2.5 gal).

I've never sanitized top up water. In fact, I rinse everything I sanitize because I don't like the taste of the sanitizer or the deposits it leaves on my bottles. Then again, we have pretty decent tap water here.
 
Brewtarget has custom equipment setups or you can use one of the two default extract setups, one for full boil (5 gal) and one for partial boil (2.5 gal).

I've never sanitized top up water. In fact, I rinse everything I sanitize because I don't like the taste of the sanitizer or the deposits it leaves on my bottles. Then again, we have pretty decent tap water here.

If you're rinsing after sanitizing, aren't you just throwing $$ away that you spent on the sanitizer?
 
You may not want to steep grain in the full boil volume. pH could be a problem.

You should always run anything you make trough a calculator. It will help you understand and gauge your system. You'll be able to put numbers to a resulting brews, IBU snd SRM. After some practice you will be able to make adjustments prior to brewing that make beer more the way you want it.

I just did my first full boil, but it was all extract, no steeping (hefe). From what I've read, you don't want to steep in full volume. So I guess my question is, do you steep in a smaller amount of water in the boil pot, and then just add the remainder of your water to that, then bring it all up to the boil? Any disadvantages to steeping at one temp, then drastically dropping the temp by adding gallons of water, only to raise the temp again to get the full boil going?
 
I am preparing to make 5 gal full boil, and I am wondering about 2 things:

1. What volume do you suggest for steeping?
2. Also, after steeping is done (30 min), should I add cold or hot water to boil to end up with 5 gallons?
 
I am preparing to make 5 gal full boil, and I am wondering about 2 things:

1. What volume do you suggest for steeping?
2. Also, after steeping is done (30 min), should I add cold or hot water to boil to end up with 5 gallons?

Not an answer, but more to consider.

Going full boil (for 60 minutes?) you are going to lose perhaps a gallon to the boil. I started mine with 6.5 gallons, lost about a gallon during the boil, and then left behind roughly a 1/2 gallon in the pot with any break material and hops residue. I use BeerAlchemy (on my mac) which allows me to enter all that data up front (so you need to have an estimate as to how much you boil off) so as to get accurate numbers for hop utilization, projected gravity/ABV, etc). If you start with 5 gallons, and want 5 gallons in your bucket, you'll end up having to add water to the fermenter.

As for how much water to steep, I THINK people suggest something like 3 qt per pound of steeping grains.
 
I assume that I"ll end with ~4 gallons, which is fine because I am limited with carboy volume (5 gallons).

For 1/2 lb of steeping grain that would be 1.5 qt of water, isn't that little low..?
Should added water it be cold or warm? Or that is not that relevant as I think it is?
 
If you're just steeping grains (i.e., not doing a mash of any sort), the amount of water is relatively flexible. I usually just go with enough to cover the grains a fair bit; in your case, maybe a gallon or so, although you could get away with less if you like.

By added water, do you mean the steeping liquid, or water added after the boil (e.g., topoff liquid)? If the former, you want to steep hot--somewhere between 150F and 170F is ideal; for the latter, whatever will get your temperature to pitching range :).

EDIT: Just read your original question. For water added to bring it up to the boil volume, hotter will be better simply because you're going to need to get it boiling. I usually steep in a small pot (~1 gallon stock pot, I think) while bringing the remaining liquid to a boil in my brew pot. That way, once the steep is done, I can rinse the grains in the brew kettle and not have to spend much time bringing it all back up to boiling temperature.
 
If you're rinsing after sanitizing, aren't you just throwing $$ away that you spent on the sanitizer?

I don't know about "throwing away", but adding risk, you bet. I'm gambling that the tap water doesn't add any harmful creatures. However, the sanitizer taste is undesirable to me, and that is guaranteed if I don't rinse.
 
I don't know about "throwing away", but adding risk, you bet. I'm gambling that the tap water doesn't add any harmful creatures. However, the sanitizer taste is undesirable to me, and that is guaranteed if I don't rinse.

I've only used the white powder no rinse stuff. Have a small bottle of starsan but have yet to try it. I haven't noticed a taste with the stuff I used, yet... curious about the starsan though
 
star san is what I'm using now. When it runs out I plan on trying the iodophor.

EDIT: To my tongue, star san tastes like chlorine and lemons.
 
Wyrmwood said:
star san is what I'm using now. When it runs out I plan on trying the iodophor.

EDIT: To my tongue, star san tastes like chlorine and lemons.

Do you have chlorinated water? I've never rinsed star San and have never noticed any kind if residual taste
 
star san is what I'm using now. When it runs out I plan on trying the iodophor.

EDIT: To my tongue, star san tastes like chlorine and lemons.

I seriously doubt it's the StarSan. Did you use it in the correct amount - 1oz for 5 gallons of water? I just Googled StarSan taste and found a few threads in which people suspected StarSan and later found it wasn't the StarSan but something else. One guy found it was Oxyclean film, guess from not rinsing well or something, and another found it was their water.

I dunno. All I can say is I don't have any taste like that at all, and there technically shouldn't be due to the massive liquid to remaining StarSan ratio. It would have to be extremely pungent to taste the left over StarSan film/bubbles being mixed with 5 gallons of wort. It's also supposed to be consumed by the yeast. Why not put a little StarSan in some water (at the proper dilution ratio and give it a taste without swallowing? That can help to tell you if that is indeed what you are tasting.


Rev.
 
I seriously doubt it's the StarSan. Did you use it in the correct amount - 1oz for 5 gallons of water? I just Googled StarSan taste and found a few threads in which people suspected StarSan and later found it wasn't the StarSan but something else. One guy found it was Oxyclean film, guess from not rinsing well or something, and another found it was their water.

I dunno. All I can say is I don't have any taste like that at all, and there technically shouldn't be due to the massive liquid to remaining StarSan ratio. It would have to be extremely pungent to taste the left over StarSan film/bubbles being mixed with 5 gallons of wort. It's also supposed to be consumed by the yeast. Why not put a little StarSan in some water (at the proper dilution ratio and give it a taste without swallowing? That can help to tell you if that is indeed what you are tasting.


Rev.
I pulled some into my mouth rinsing a hose before my first batch using star san and nearly gagged. That's what initiated the taste tests.

I've been using star san on the last 5 batches. There's nothing but tap water and star san touching my gear and I use 5ml per gallon, (which is slightly less than 1 oz/ 5gal). I also tested tap water in a sanitized and un-rinsed bottle; which is why I started rinsing. It wasn't nearly as pronounced, but it lingered. Maybe I have a particularly potent bottle, or different taste buds :) I think it tastes like lemons and chlorine :)
 
Well, obviously you need to do whatever you're comfortable with. But something to consider/remember, when you use Starsan to sanitize, it is VERY different than drinking a Starsan mixture. Starsan is an acid and that's why it does what it does (and has the flavors you mention). When you talk about sucking it that is drinking the mixture. After you pour it off, there is very little Starsan actually left in your vessels. Any unpleasant residue, if any, will be so greatly diluted that there won't be any of those flavors left in your beer.

Jaz

I pulled some into my mouth rinsing a hose before my first batch using star san and nearly gagged. That's what initiated the taste tests.

I've been using star san on the last 5 batches. There's nothing but tap water and star san touching my gear and I use 5ml per gallon, (which is slightly less than 1 oz/ 5gal). I also tested tap water in a sanitized and un-rinsed bottle; which is why I started rinsing. It wasn't nearly as pronounced, but it lingered. Maybe I have a particularly potent bottle, or different taste buds :) I think it tastes like lemons and chlorine :)
 
What about all the (star san) foam? I've rinsed the carboy a few times because of all the freaking foam...
 
What about all the (star san) foam? I've rinsed the carboy a few times because of all the freaking foam...

I barely ever get foam in my primary because I fill the water first and add the StarSan after. If you put the StarSan in first and fill on top of it the agitation will cause it to foam up way more. I do get lots of foam however on my strainer and another item or two since I move the sanitizing water from my primary to a bucket and when doing that the agitation creates a lot of foam in my sanitizing bucket. And I just leave the foam on, never been a problem.


Rev.
 
OK. I know the directions say it's OK, and it seems everyone else around here agrees with that, but, it's hard to accept. I guess I'll just close my eyes and not rinse... :|
 
Here are a few tips for extract brewing and the Homebrewtalk thread on it.

My process
1)Steep in 1-3 quarts of water per pound of grains. I steep in 2 quarts per pound and no longer use a bag.
2)When there are 20 minutes left in the steep I heat up 1 gallon of water in one pot and 1 1/2 gallons in the boil pot.
3)When the grains are done steeping I pour them through a SS strainer into the boil pot and then rinse them with the gallon of water in the other pot.
4)Pour gallons of water into the second pot and start boiling. This will be my top off water. It will be done and cooled before the boil is done.

I know a lot of stuff going on the stove going at once. We also usually bottle the same day so we have the priming solution on the stove also. Heating up water in the boil pot while steeping saves time. The strainer didn't really save money but not having to remember grain bags when buying ingredients leaves one less thing to remember.

I can think of a number of reasons:
1) It's easier to get extract to dissolve with more liquid.
2) It makes hop utilization calculations simpler.
3) No requirement to sanitize topoff liquid.
4) Beersmith always seems to assume it's a full-boil, so when I forget to tell it otherwise, my process gets screwed :).

Beersmith has custom equipment setups. I have 2 different ones right now, stovetop and turkey fryer.
 
I think there's a thread somewhere here titled "Don't fear the foam" and it refers to the fact that starsan foam actually acts as a yeast nutrient, so it's a plus in the carboy.

I'm not sure about other sanitizers.
 
Hmm. Yea. Foam. I just sanitized a 6gal carboy, mixed the starsan into water first (no foam), sloshed it around inside the carboy and now I have ~3gallons of foam. I'm rinsing it out.
 
Hmm. Yea. Foam. I just sanitized a 6gal carboy, mixed the starsan into water first (no foam), sloshed it around inside the carboy and now I have ~3gallons of foam. I'm rinsing it out.

Instead of sloshing/agitating it, just carefully roll the liquid around the inside of your carboy. Remember, you just want to coat the surfaces to disinfect. The more you agitate, the more foam you'll get. So, try not to agitate and you'll minimize the foam you get.

Jaz
 
If you really don't like the foam you can pick up some Iodophor, IO Star, or Saniclean for sanitizing your equipment. These are all perfectly suitable alternatives to StarSan, & none of them foam like StarSan.
 
I barely ever get foam in my primary because I fill the water first and add the StarSan after. If you put the StarSan in first and fill on top of it the agitation will cause it to foam up way more. I do get lots of foam however on my strainer and another item or two since I move the sanitizing water from my primary to a bucket and when doing that the agitation creates a lot of foam in my sanitizing bucket. And I just leave the foam on, never been a problem.


Rev.

I added water and then added starsan for the first time friday and there was no foam at all so I was worried I didn't have the correct ratio. I ended up dumping it, then adding the star san first which gave me a ton of foam. Sometimes the foam gives me solace that it will sanitize my equipment. However, it causes me problems when I get a hydro sample because the foam makes the hydrometer tough to read.
 
Use a spray bottle. Mix a gallon of distilled water with 1/5 oz starsan and use it to fill a spray bottle. All you need to do is get the surface wet to sanitize. The foam is not a bad thing.
 
I added water and then added starsan for the first time friday and there was no foam at all so I was worried I didn't have the correct ratio.

Don't be worried if there's no foam. Just fill the vessel then add the StarSan. I usually stir it up a little with the spoon that I am sanitizing to make sure it all mixes properly.

BTW, why are you sanitizing for the hydrometer? Are you dumping the sample back into the beer? I just taste a reading and dump it so I never need to sanitize the hydrometer or its tube.


Rev.
 
Don't be worried if there's no foam. Just fill the vessel then add the StarSan. I usually stir it up a little with the spoon that I am sanitizing to make sure it all mixes properly.

BTW, why are you sanitizing for the hydrometer? Are you dumping the sample back into the beer? I just taste a reading and dump it so I never need to sanitize the hydrometer or its tube.


Rev.

I take my hydro reading from my beer thief, so I sanitize that. I just stick the hydrometer in the thief, then draw a sample until the hydrometer floats. So the thief is what causes the foam. I used to take a sample and then put it in a test tube, but the tubes kept leaking from the base, so I switched to just taking my reading straight out of the thief.
 
Drink it!

I have many times but often don't anymore since pre-fermented beer takes like crap with all the sugars still present. I now only really taste when it's something new I'm doing. I do always drink the sample before bottling.


Rev.
 
Yea, I drink at least some of mine but I always end up pulling up so much trub or yeast that it generally isn't worth it. With my thief, it's hard to get a sufficient sample without pulling up a little trub.
 
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