Sour Diesel: rye, hop, and strain questions in regards to sours

I'm interested in making a pretty intense sour beer (thus the title of this thread). I've brewed a couple of sours, so I'm comfortable working with the bugs, though I don't have a good understanding of them or how to pair flavors with that sourness.

Firstly, what is the max IBUs that I can brew with that won't inhibit the bacteria (btw, I'll be using dregs from Russian River, Jolly Pumpkin, or both)? I've read that sour and hops do not go together, but I was thinking a dry-hopping after some aging could really compliment the sour. I feel like a strong NW dry-hop could compliment the sourness, but I'd like to hear what others think. I'm also thinking some resin-pineyness might be good for the type of intensity I'm looking for - steer me correct if this sounds like a terrible idea flavor-wise - but I'm not sure how to achieve that without inhibiting the bacteria.

Secondly, rye. I know The Bruery makes a rye sour, but I've never had it, and I haven't read any other reports of people doing this. The concept is very intriguing to me, but I can't even begin to imagine how the two flavors would compliment (or not) each other. I'm worried the sour and rye spice might conflict quite a bit. Any thoughts? (btw, I don't necessarily want to brew a hoppy-rye-sour, I'm just determining options)

Finally, what is the best method to get a good amount funk without the sour becoming the completely dominating force. Both my sours were pretty much sour bombs, very hard to discern the funk. Is there a way to get an intense funk and sour without the sour being all that comes through? Would keeping the temp lower help (to give the Brett more of a jump start over the bacteria)?

My plan of action right now is brew a 1.075 OG beer, and mash at like 155F to get a lot of Sacch-unfermentables. I'll then pitch a rehydrated pack of Safale-04 and the dregs from a bottle or two of Russian River and/or Jolly Pumpkin (yay for Bday presents!); I'd prefer not to have to deal with a starter unless it's absolutely recommended. This 'plan' is completely open to change and suggestion, especially in light of answers to the above questions.

Thanks for any advice you may have!

max IBUs of 10 since it inhibits lactabacillus. usually aging drops out the AA's and bittering units while still maintaining the preservative qualities. they should not be "cheesy" though.

i think the spiciness of the rye can be very interesting! i say go for it. i always thought step mashing to high temps will release extra tannins that will fuel the complex fermentation later in its age. high mash temp or 155 sounds good, then step up even higher after an hour or so.

keeping fermentation temps a bit colder with less temperature swings and very little oxygen introduction will be the best way to prevent going overly sour. i know some of mine are beyond acidic cantillon style - good but for special occasions, esp with good cheeses, but def not for everyday consumption.

jolly pumpkin dregs are always excellent and rr ain't too shabby niether:cross: brew it up and get back to us over the course of time. remember to share you pellicle in the photo collection...

jessup said:

i think the spiciness of the rye can be very interesting! i say go for it. i always thought step mashing to high temps will release extra tannins that will fuel the complex fermentation later in its age. high mash temp or 155 sounds good, then step up even higher after an hour or so.

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Thanks for the info! Some clarifications: Could you be more specific about the step-mashing please? I only have experience with single-temp mashing. What are your thoughts on the dry-hopping? Also, I thought AAs were the basis of hops' preservative qualities. Is this not the case? Ie does dry-hopping contribute compounds to the fermenting wort that inhibit the bacteria, as well?

I will definitely be posting pellicle pics! I have some old ones that I took specifically for the gallery here that I just haven't got around to pulling off the camera to post.

Alpha acids are responsible for the bittering of beer. Beta acids, which don't lose their potency from aging or oxidation, and some polyphenols, are the antibacterial agents in hops. Beta acids do not have nearly the bittering potential of isomerized alpha acids. Thus in Lambics, aged hops prevent spoilage by lactobacillus, while pediococcus is responsible for most of the souring. In Flanders red, low IBUS are targeted with fresh hops, so more lactobacillus activity is present. I think they target low IBUs because the bitterness and sourness do not go well together in a dry beer. Bitterness balances the sweetness of the malt, but if the beer is very dry, bitterness will dominate. You may certainly try what you like.

You can sparge very hot (194F) if you do not wish to step mash. This was done historically to remove all sugars (fermentable and not) from the grain after the low efficiency turbid mashing schedule. I'm not sure the extracted tannins actually feed the bugs, but they break down and precipitate out over the long fermentation.

Okay, thanks. So it's the bitterness from the hops that doesn't go with the sourness, not the hop flavor or aroma, that does ring a bell. In terms of the hops inhibiting Lacto more than Pedio, do the two different strains provide different sour qualities? Ie if I totally inhibited the Lacto, but the Pedio was still going, would there be a noticeable difference in the sour flavor?

I BIAB, and I usually do a mashout, so I'll extend the length of the mashout from 20 mins to an hour. I'll then hop the wort with Chinook for 5 mins. After about a year of aging, I'll dry-hop and bottle.

Max IBUs is strain dependent. The packaged Lactobacillus from white labs is not hop tolerant, and I dont know if Wyeast's is or not hop tolerant. I do know you'll likely get sourness regardless of hops with RR and JP microbes. RR has Pediococcus bacteria and JP I hear only has Lactobacillus that was locally "sourced". So the hop tolerance will likely not be an issue. There are certainly strains of Lactobacillus that are hop tolerant. Not all strains follow the often cited "no more than 10 IBUs" mantra spouted over and over on this site.

There's more than just the inhibition of lactobacillus that you should think about when considering bitterness in a wild beer.

You need to consider if these things will go well together. The vast majority of traditional "sour" beer styles have low IBUs. This is for a reason. Often bitterness and sourness together makes for an unpleasant experience. Many things in nature that have these two sensations together are poisons and animals (humans included) will avoid the combination as an adaptive mechanism to aid survival.

So my point is think about why you want to add bitterness rather than if you can.

Idk if you want to call it Sour Diesel... that's the name of a high grade strain of marijuana, I would be confused it it were used as the name of a sour beer.

I'm gonna stick at the 10 IBU just because of the bitter+sour issue, but it is good to know that there is variation in Lacto hop-tolerance (I was kind of assuming there would be). Btw, I looked into the difference between Lacto and Pedio, and according to a presentation floating around HBT by Vinny from RR, Lacto gives a 'softer' (I can't remember the exact wording he used, but softer was the gist of it) tangier acidity than Pedio.

Haha, I appreciate the heads up, BovineBlitz. The name is actually intentional, and why I'm trying to get some of that resiny-citrusy hop flavor and aroma going.

I just soured a 1 gallon batch of DeadGuy'ish, on JP Bam Noire dregs, that has 30 IBU's. Has been aging for 1 month. Delicious, tart, no problem with hops. Was so good I added some fruit to bring in more flavors. Letting it sit for another month.

Well on a side not if as you mentioned you are normally getting too much sour you could just not worry about IBU's and go with just an addition on Brett in the secondary for some solid funk.

I have had Gueze Boon dregs give a Lacto looking Pellicle over dry hops, so I wouldn't worry about Dry hopping messing w/ the souring capabilities.

Okay, here's the recipe I've come up with. Any input is welcome.

Sour Diesel (2.5 gal):
3 lbs Maris Otter
2 lbs Munich (I could have just 5 lbs Maris, I don't have solid reasoning for this)
2 lbs rye malt
0.5 lb crystal 40L
0.5 oz Chinook 5 min
0.5 oz Columbus dry-hop after aging
0.5 oz Centennial or Citra dry-hop after aging
mash at 155F
Safale-04
Consecration dregs
Bam Biere dregs
OG 1.075
IBU 10 (might be a little more since I 'chill' in my tub)

Okay, I've been doing more reading, and I think I'm gonna brew this as an almost all rye sour. Revised recipe:

Sour Diesel (2.5 gal):
7 lbs rye malt
0.5 lb Maris Otter (for the extra diastic power)
0.5 oz Chinook 5 min
0.5 oz Columbus dry-hop after aging
0.5 oz Centennial or Citra dry-hop after aging
mash at 155F
Safale-04
Consecration dregs
Bam Biere dregs
OG 1.075
IBU 10 (might be a little more since I 'chill' in my tub)

My question is in regards to the mash rests I should incorporate. I'm not sure if I should do a beta-glucan or protein rest (am I missing any other potential mash rests?) because my understanding is that these are involved in body, which I would like to retain as much as possible. On the other hand, I also don't want a solid brick of rye that I can mash-out (again, I BIAB). Please advise. Thanks.

Even with BIAB I'd add a bit of rice hulls because rye has no husks at all. Also if you want additional diastic power I would go with 1-2lbs of 6 row american malt. It has higher amount of enzymes and at that small of an amount you won't really notice it vs the rye malt. I would seriously advise a beta-glucan rest. Then again I'm trying to use my experience with rye in a mash tun. So you can very likely just do your BIAB and if you run into a run off issue you can just beat the bag to get the wort to run.

Okay, I'll do a pound of American 2-row. I've been toying with the idea of throwing a half pound of crystal in too for color; I read recently that all-rye beers have a grey dirty dish water color.

I've decided to play it safe and go with the beta-glucan and protein rest; if the mash-out turns out okay, or if it's really lacking in body, I can play with those variables next time.

If you've ever had New Belgium's La Terroir, it is a dry-hopped sour ale and it is pretty tasty. They use an earthy hop (not sure which) as opposed to a citrusy one. It can be good if not overdone. As for bittering, I agree to keep it low.

I got the grains to brew this up sometime this week. A quick question first, though, do I need to still boil the wort for 60 mins even though I only need to boil the Chinook for 5 mins to reach the correct IBUs? I ask this because I've been reading about DMS and I can't figure if 'no-boil' - or very short, 5 min boil - is a good idea or not.

IMO, using an aroma hop at the end isn't the best idea. There will be no aroma left over after aging, and you might end up with that nasty old hop aroma you get in old IPAs or pale ales. I'd just use a low-alpha hop early in the boil for the IBUs you're after.

As far as the boil goes, I suppose you could do a short or no-boil, but unless you're after a particular result, I wouldn't deviate from your standard brewday.

Before doing this beer, I'd try as many beers that are that heavy in rye as you can. Rye can get really overwhelming in large percentages, both in aroma and flavor, but also in mouthfeel. There's a lot more beta glucan in rye than other grains, and in excess you can end up with a very thick feeling beer (I heard an interview on the BeerSmith podcast where Randy Mosher [I believe] likened his 100% rye beer to feeling like drinking snot). If you can find Telegraph's Rhinocerous you'll see what I mean.

btw, Le Terroir was dry-hopped with Amarillo. So, so tasty!

I actually ended up brewing this this past weekend. I can put up my exact recipe and procedure if anybody is interested.

I plan to wait until aging is 'done' before dry hopping, so that will take care of any stale hop issues. As for the thickness, I have only had a handful of rye beers, and I don't think they were too high a percent, so unfortunately I'm unfamiliar with the thickness you're describing. I did however do both a beta-glucan and protein rest - 20 min each, if memory serves - so hopefully this won't be an issue; we'll see. I also played it safe and just did the full 60 min boil with hops in for the last 5 mins.

Glad to hear La Terroir is good with Amarillo; I'll have to keep a look out for it. Hopefully the trend holds true for my beer!

JacobS said:

Well on a side not if as you mentioned you are normally getting too much sour you could just not worry about IBU's and go with just an addition on Brett in the secondary for some solid funk.

I have had Gueze Boon dregs give a Lacto looking Pellicle over dry hops, so I wouldn't worry about Dry hopping messing w/ the souring capabilities.

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Gueze Boon has live dregs?! Any idea what combo of bugs is in there?

I have afeeling that after the long fermentation by the brett and bacteria some of the beta-glucans will be broken down through acid production and utilized by the microbes. Rye does promote a fullness to the mouth feel. I've used 27% in a saison and for 1.003 it certainly doesn't feel that dry.

One year in, started dry hopping the other day w Columbus and Centennial. I racked the beer to a smaller carboy and wasnt getting a whole lotta hop aroma, so added some more Columbus, Centennial, and Cascade. Probably bottle it in a week or two.

mccann51 said:

One year in, started dry hopping the other day w Columbus and Centennial. I racked the beer to a smaller carboy and wasnt getting a whole lotta hop aroma, so added some more Columbus, Centennial, and Cascade. Probably bottle it in a week or two.

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i'm lookin to do a sour rye sort of beer. how'd yours turn out and do you have any tips for me?

Decided to go with

6lbs rye malt
4lbs munich
4lbs pilsner
8oz. C-60
4oz. Chocolate malt

Fermented with ecy20

That should put it in the neighborhood of 40% rye which is what sour in the rye is supposed to be.

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