Gelatin and IPAs

Getting ready to bottle my very first original recipe next week, an IPA with lots of late and dry hopping. I'm considering using gelatin to help the beer clear up... I tend to have a lot of chill haze (besides the fact that I do BIAB). I already use Whirlfloc and I cold crash for three days before bottling, but I'm looking to step it up.

I'm worried that the gelatin might strip out the hop character. Is this a significant factor to consider?

Incidentally, I've only used gelatin once so far, but I won't see the results of that until mid November. I realized after the fact that although I heated the gelatin water to 155, I never pre boiled the water. It went into a 7.2% Christmas ale. Should I be worried about a possible infection?

Thanks in advance!

I wouldn't worry about 155. Lots of people add water straight from the tap for extract brews and have no issues.

I've used gelatin on an IPA and it worked just fine. Just don't throw in 5 packets or something.

Thanks Bill. So, when you refer to extract brewers using tap water, you're talking about top off water? Is pre boiling water for gelatin not generally part of the process?

I don't have actual packets of gelatin, so I'm not sure how much is in one package. I have a small jar of it from LD Carlson. I believe I used 1/4 teaspoon in 1/3 cup of water for about 2.7 gallons of the Christmas ale.

Just FYI, you don't need to worry over the temperature of your water when using gelatin. Gelatin can be boiled without denaturing (that's how it's made).

Ilan34 said:

Thanks Bill. So, when you refer to extract brewers using tap water, you're talking about top off water? Is pre boiling water for gelatin not generally part of the process?

I don't have actual packets of gelatin, so I'm not sure how much is in one package. I have a small jar of it from LD Carlson. I believe I used 1/4 teaspoon in 1/3 cup of water for about 2.7 gallons of the Christmas ale.

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He is saying that when you do exract brewing, you add water directly from the tap and there is no major issus, hence, if you did the same for your gelatin, you shouldn't be worried about infection.

Boil the water first if you think about it and just throw a package in half a cup of water when it reach 155.

EDIT : OH, i just realized you don't have a pack. Maybe 1/2 TBSP in 1/2 cup of water

Ok, so no worries about infection and it also shouldn't affect the hoppiness of the ipa.

Is 1/4 teaspoon too little for a 2.5 - 3 gallon batch?

1 packet is about 1 tablespoon, which works well for a 5 gallon batch. I'd use 1/2 tablespoon for yours.

Crap, that's six times more than what I used on the Christmas ale. I'm at work so I don't have the bottle in front of me, obviously, but I *think * I used half the recommended amount of 1/2 teaspoon for a five gallon batch. Maybe the LD Carlson is a different concentration of gelatin than the packets?

Captain Damage said:

Just FYI, you don't need to worry over the temperature of your water when using gelatin. Gelatin can be boiled without denaturing (that's how it's made).

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Everything I've read about gelatin emphasizes that it's important that you NOT boil it. 170° F is usually given as the very upper temperature limit you should use while preparing gelatin.

Ilan34 said:

Is 1/4 teaspoon too little for a 2.5 - 3 gallon batch?

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In my opinion, yes. I use a full tablespoon in 1 cup of water for a 5 gallon batch.

My opinions from experience:


Do not put gelatin in aroma/dry hopped beer. It WILL strip aroma. How much depends on how much gelatin you use. I'd rather have a smelly cloudy IPA than an aromaless clear IPA. I've wasted a ton of steeped/dry hops on a couple IPAs that I crashed with gelatin.

If you do put gelatin in, top at 170F or you will have Jello beer. Also make sure you put the gelatin in when your beer is already at it's coldest and wait 1-2 days for it to clear.

Thanks guys for the info! I'll make sure to up the gelatin next time, and will keep the temperature around 155, as I did the first time. I cold crashed for two days, added gelatin, and kept it cold for another two days before bottling.

Seems there's differing opinions on using gelatin with IPAs, which is what I found when I tried to research the topic originally. I suppose I could compromise and do only a quarter of a tablespoon of gelatin, thereby limiting how much aroma it might strip yet still clearing it to some degree? Or is that not even worth the bother? The hops are definitely more important to me than the clarity!

I typically do 1/2 tsp of gel in 5 gallon batches for my hoppy beers and have been very pleased with the result. I find it strips some of the harsher "biting" hop flavors and leaves the more subtle citrus/fruit/pine whatever character. Plus it brightens it up quite a bit for nice presentation.

Come to think of it, I pretty much only use gel in dry hopped beers...I find they're the only ones that benefit from it. Again, just my perspective.

I would just leave the gel out. Heady isnt clear after all. Save it for other styles. I have an okfest ale and a saison which sparkle from gel.

Agreed I don't use it as I have heard numerous times it will strip some hop flavor. There is no benefit to a clear beer if it already taste good. There is a video floating around somewhere about how they will not pasteurize or filter Heady Topper because you wouldn't get the same beer. I only worry about clarity on my lighter flavored beers like my cream ales or lagers. If it's not going to comp I would not even consider trying to clear an IPA. I work hard getting as much hop flavor as I can in there.

thisisbeer said:

Agreed I don't use it as I have heard numerous times it will strip some hop flavor. There is no benefit to a clear beer if it already taste good. There is a video floating around somewhere about how they will not pasteurize or filter Heady Topper because you wouldn't get the same beer. I only worry about clarity on my lighter flavored beers like my cream ales or lagers. If it's not going to comp I would not even consider trying to clear an IPA. I work hard getting as much hop flavor as I can in there.

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My thoughts exactly.

So interesting, the different viewpoints you can get here. I really appreciate all of them. For now, I suppose I'll hold off on the gelatin.

Two more questions.

Any advantage to using gelatin in, say, a porter? Will it enhance the blackness?

Any opinions on using LD Carlson versus Knox?

Go ahead and use it. The people who are saying it strips hop flavor all seem to say they "read it somewhere". Give it a try and judge for yourself.

I've personally used gelatin on IPA's and they've come out with more hop flavor and aroma than pretty much anything you will get commercially.

I agree with bill you never know until you try. Except I referenced the brewer of one of the best IPA'S in the world in my theory. If you really want to find out for yourself then I suggest you do it, that is the only way to learn. All we can do is suggest on things people ask. I am a big advocate of doing things people tell you wont work just to be on the safe side and know for sure. My only point was I don't see a reason to risk it just to have clear beer, clear beer just isn't that important to me.

If a brew is opaque (porter, stout, etc), the gelatin will have little to no effect on color. It will cut down on yeast flavor, though.

"Except I referenced the brewer of one of the best IPA'S in the world in my theory"

Except the reference had nothing to do with gelatin. The chemical process is very different than mechanically straining the beer though a filter. There really is no doubt that you can remove just about any compound from a liquid if you use a fine enough filter.

Other than that, yep, trial is the best way to figure out what works for you. I've personally tried it, and at the levels recommended here, I saw no reduction in hop flavor or aroma. I generally just let time and gravity do the work for me, but if I'm in a hurry, I wouldn't hesitate to use jello.

As for clarity, I really don't understand the idea that it doesn't matter. Of course the visual aspect of the beer is important - just like the taste and aroma are important. If not, we'd all be drinking fine beers out of red solo cups.

I dont mean to go back to the same point but like I said one of the best beers in the world is pretty ugly looking. My point is clarity is far lower on the list than taste and aroma. I'm not saying your wrong. Just that looks are not the koat important thing for me.

Thanks for all the back and forth, guys. I am tempted to go ahead with the gelatin, but this being my first original recipe and how much planning went into it, I'm going to experiment with another beer in the future, maybe the amber I'll be brewing next month. I would love to split a batch into two carboys and put gelatin into just one so I can do a real side by side. Someday! I wonder if that's something Basic Brewing has covered.

No difference between Knox and LD's gelatin, I've used them both and they both work well

I've used gelatin before, during (in a pinch) and after dry hopping and IMO if there is a difference in flavor it is small. Then again I do dry hop with a high rate of hops.

Steelers77 said:

No difference between Knox and LD's gelatin, I've used them both and they both work well

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Hmm, I wonder why the disparity in recommend usage amounts. LD recommends half a teaspoon per five gallons while Knox is a full tablespoon.

Steelers77 said:

I've used gelatin before, during (in a pinch) and after dry hopping and IMO if there is a difference in flavor it is small. Then again I do dry hop with a high rate of hops.

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I feel like you may have just read that somewhere....

Sorry I couldn't help it

I'll say a little more now that I'm on a computer. All of your IPA's should have more hop flavor and aroma than a lot of commercial beers. There the freshest your are going to get if you brew them yourself. Some of that stuff you are clearing out of your beer are things that put more hop aroma and flavor in that beer. That is true rather it's filtering or using gelatin. It may not be the most popular opinion about IPA's, but it is mine.

I'm not saying you will make bad beer if you use it either. All my beer drops clear with enough time in the keg and I still like it! My only point was why go through the extra step just so your beer will "look pretty" I want it to smell good and taste even better. So if something negatively effects flavor or aroma and I don't really gain anything out of it, I wont do it. It is becoming more popular it seems. I have been seeing more craft beer cans around that say "Clarity is overrated". Like I said if it is going to a competition I would recommend it being clear and use it in a pinch. I also do recommend using it in other beers that are not as heavy in hops. I will use it for my cream ales and other lawnmower type beers that I do want clear and clean tasting.

Bill is right though you need to see for yourself eventually. If clear beer is really want you want then I would use it. It will not make your beer taste bad and will not make a big difference. However saying clarity is as important as taste or aroma is a bit dramatic.

I have used gelatin before, and it does clear a beer, and I have not noticed any flavor loss. However, since I now have a dedicated fermentation/freezer box, I just cold crash now, and my beers are clear. I have never had chill haze in any of my beers. You BIAB and I wonder how strongly you boil your wort. It is my understanding that chill haze is due to not boiling the wort aggressively enough. How much is "enough", I don't know. I do 90 minute boils almost every time. Maybe that's it.

Ilan34 said:

Hmm, I wonder why the disparity in recommend usage amounts. LD recommends half a teaspoon per five gallons while Knox is a full tablespoon.

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I personally believe its just the rate the beer is cleared. I've used 1/2 pack of Knox and its taken a few days to clear and I've had 5 gallon clear over night with a full pack.

What I find odd was that LD recommends 1/2 tsp for 5 gallons of beer and 1 tsp for 6 gallons of wine?

I just use ~ 1 tsp per 5 gallons and it works well for me.

What if you cold crash and add gelatin before you dry hop?

I'm planning to try this modified schedule with an IPA I currently have in primary. I'm going to give it 3 weeks in primary, then I'll move it into the fridge, then a day later, add the gelatin solution (1 tbsp/125 mL water) and give it another 3-4 days. Then I'll add the dry hops, keeping it in the fridge. I'll give it a week, then rack it to a keg and begin carbonating.

Thoughts on this schedule?

" However saying clarity is as important as taste or aroma is a bit dramatic."

I certainly didn't write that clarity is as important as taste. 2 things can both be important without being equal - eg brushing your teeth vs not getting hit by a bus.

If you don't mind ugly beer, that is certainly up to you. Personally, I think beer is food. If I went to a nice place and ordered a juicy delicious steak, I'd be pretty disappointed if they served it on a paper plate with plastic silverware. Don't get me wrong....I'm still eating the steak, but something important about the experience would be lost.

You keep comparing it to glass ware and eating utensils. But that is the same point I am making. I do expect good presentation at a steak house but not at my father-in-laws steak dinners. If it's going to competition or an event get it clear. But if it is for my home consumption then I am not doing it. You did pretty much state that if it's not clear you should pretty much drink it from a red solo cup. Everybody knows you can only drink IPA's out of BLUE solo cups...c'mon man...

MindenMan said:

I have never had chill haze in any of my beers. You BIAB and I wonder how strongly you boil your wort. It is my understanding that chill haze is due to not boiling the wort aggressively enough. How much is "enough", I don't know. I do 90 minute boils almost every time. Maybe that's it.

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Hmm, I was under the impression that a good hot and cold break, as well as how quickly the wort can be chilled, have the biggest impact on chill haze formation. The BIAB part of my process doesn't really affect how aggressive my boil is, it's only a mash thing.

MindenMan said:

It is my understanding that chill haze is due to not boiling the wort aggressively enough.

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Ilan34 said:

Hmm, I was under the impression that a good hot and cold break, as well as how quickly the wort can be chilled, have the biggest impact on chill haze formation.

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A good hot break is the product of an aggressive boil. You don't get a "good" hot break from a wimpy boil.

kombat said:

A good hot break is the product of an aggressive boil. You don't get a "good" hot break from a wimpy boil.

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Touché! I didn't think that correlation through. Welp, my boil is pretty aggressive, I get a fine hot break, and I am able to chill my wort from boiling to 60 degrees in 30 minutes. I use Whirlfloc and cold crash. Still get chill haze.

kombat said:

Originally Posted by Captain Damage View Post
Just FYI, you don't need to worry over the temperature of your water when using gelatin. Gelatin can be boiled without denaturing (that's how it's made).

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Everything I've read about gelatin emphasizes that it's important that you NOT boil it. 170° F is usually given as the very upper temperature limit you should use while preparing gelatin.

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That's simply incorrect. Gelatin is produced by boiling bones in a mild acid for hours. It's exactly the same as what you see if you've ever made chicken soup from scratch - which requires hours of boiling - and noticed that it gets thick when cooled. The boiling extracts collagen from the bones, skin and connective tissue. Packaged collagen is called gelatin.

That said, boiling temperatures are not necessary to dissolve and pasteurize the gelatin powder for your beer. My point was simply that sweating about the temperature getting too high is one thing you don't need to worry about.

There's a difference between a simmer and a boil, and the purpose of gelatin in stock is different than in beer. In beer we want surface area, and boiling makes larger clumps of molecules and less surface area, thus less clearing power. There's a reason all the sources you've read say not to boil it for use as a fining agent.

I have to be 100% honest, I've never had a chill haze problem. Typically chill haze is caused by one of a few things. First you may not be getting a strong enough boil, a strong hour long rolling boil will help remove or breakup the proteins and the tannins that cause chill haze. Then it's equally important to chill your beer rapidly.

If you're doing either just enough boil to get by, or if you're taking too long to chill (I think Palmer says half an hour or less) you will have some issues with chill haze. You can add finings to it but I prefer to save my money and deal with some particulates that may be hanging around and having just a solidly clean looking beer.

hoppyhoppyhippo said:

I have to be 100% honest, I've never had a chill haze problem. Typically chill haze is caused by one of a few things. First you may not be getting a strong enough boil, a strong hour long rolling boil will help remove or breakup the proteins and the tannins that cause chill haze. Then it's equally important to chill your beer rapidly.

If you're doing either just enough boil to get by, or if you're taking too long to chill (I think Palmer says half an hour or less) you will have some issues with chill haze. You can add finings to it but I prefer to save my money and deal with some particulates that may be hanging around and having just a solidly clean looking beer.

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Well, I have no doubt I'm getting a strong rolling boil. Although I'm using an electric stove, my wort is split into two pots, and I have to keep the temperature below high in order to prevent the boil from leaping out of the pot.

As far as chilling goes, when it's recommended to chill in half an hour or less, to what temp is that referring? Below 100? Below 80? 70? I get to 60 in just about 30 minutes using an ice bath for each pot. So, if you need to be at 60 in 30 minutes, then I'm at the threshold. But as far as chilling to, say, 80, I don't have an exact time on that, but I would guess right around 15 min.

i feel like both the worst and the very best IPAs are cloudy. and that crystal clear IPAs are generally pretty good.

Regardless, in this case I've now moved on to the interesting fact that my IPA seems to have restarted fermentation after I dry hopped.

Before I dry hopped, I took two readings three days apart. Both were at 1.015. Took a reading four days after I dry hopped and it was down to 1.014. Noticed all week that there was a little activity going on in the carboy. Held off on cold crashing and took another reading yesterday morning. Down to 1.013.
Hm.

Going to take another reading tonight because I'd love to crash it tomorrow and bottle on thursday. Otherwise I won't have another chance to bottle until next Tuesday. Hesitant to leave it with the dry hops that long, it's already been 7 days today.

You didn't boil the hops to sanitize? Infected & ruined. Kidding.

One possible explanation for "restarting fermentation" is simply the release of CO2. The fine particles of pellet hops act as nucleation sites and can cause fizzing & release of residual CO2. So if you didn't degas your first hydrometer sample, it's possible it was propped up a few points by the bubbles; so now, this new sample with reduced CO2 content reads lower.

I think you'll be just fine with your proposed schedule.