Lagering questions

I'm going to do my first lager in the next two weeks, and I had some questions...

Here's the recipe:

9.25 lb. German Pilsner Malt
0.25 lb. Crystal Malt 10°L

0.50 oz. Northern Brewer bittering @ 60 mins.
1.00 oz. German Hallertau bittering @ 60 mins.
0.25 oz. German Hallertau flavoring @ 10 mins.

Wyeast 2042 Danish lager yeast

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When I pitch my starter slurry into the wort, I plan to have the slurry at 45°F and the wort at 50°F, so...

1. How do you cool the wort down to that temp? Should I cool it with my IC, then put it in the primary and put it in my chest freezer and drop the Ranco down to 50°F, then wait and pitch once it's down to proper temp?

2. How do you know whether or not you need a diacetyl rest? I've read Palmer's chapter on lagering, but I saw nothing telling me when to do it or not do it, only how and if "fementation or pitching conditions require it."

Thanks!

The only time you should need a diacetyl rest is if you pitch warm (70°).

I have not done a true lager but I would imagine your idea will work. Get it down with the IC and pop it in the freezer. It will take a while, though.

Some lager yeast strains produce more diacetyl than others. Some people just do a diacetyl rest at the end of primary as a matter of course. I usually taste for diacetyl, and do one if needed. If you're unsure, you can just plan on doing one. It won't hurt a thing if you do one, even if it's not strictly needed.

I have cold tap water, so I use my chiller to get to 50 degrees. You want to chill the wort pretty quickly, so you may have to do a water bath with ice in the bathtub or something in addition to the chiller to get to pitching temps pretty quickly.

I have two parts to my IC setup, the IC, and another section of copper I immerse into an ice bath that runs to my IC. I didn't think I would be able to get the wort down to 50, but I bet I can with that setup.

Are the buttery/butterscotch flavors really pronounced with diacetyl? Is it that obvious? Are there any other indicators?

I guess I'll work in a diacetyl rest, since this is my first lager, I'm sure with experience I'll be able to make that call properly in the future. Thanks!

BigNastyBrew said:

The only time you should need a diacetyl rest is if you pitch warm (70°).

I have not done a true lager but I would imagine your idea will work. Get it down with the IC and pop it in the freezer. It will take a while, though.

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Actually ALL fermentations can benefit from a diacetyl rest...This is a good thread that discusses it...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/preventing-diacetyl-hold-butter-please-70438/?highlight=hold+butter

In fact last week I posted some info I had just discovered about doing different diacetyl rests for ales and lagers...https://www.homebrewtalk.com/1080693-post43.html

Just beware that lager yeasts will take a while before fermentation is noticable. Sometimes it has taken me 4 or 5 days. This is especially true if you are pitching at 50 degrees. You might want to consider pitching at 70 degrees then lowering it to 50 degrees after 12-24 hours...

Eskimo Spy said:

Are the buttery/butterscotch flavors really pronounced with diacetyl? Is it that obvious? Are there any other indicators?

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It is sometimes described as a slick feel on the tongue. If you do not taste any, let others taste it too as some people have hard time tasting diacetyl.

Okay, I have an American ale in the chest freezer at 65°F, where it's been for 2 weeks at that temp. So, am I reading the article right, this is a good step for ales as a diacetyl rest?

I had planned on leaving all my future ales at fermentation temps for two to three weeks, then moving to secondary if the beer calls for it. It sounds like this has the unexpected benefit of minimizing diacetyls!

michael.berta said:

Just beware that lager yeasts will take a while before fermentation is noticable. Sometimes it has taken me 4 or 5 days. This is especially true if you are pitching at 50 degrees. You might want to consider pitching at 70 degrees then lowering it to 50 degrees after 12-24 hours...

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From what I've read, this is not ideal because, and I quote from Palmer's book, "How to Brew," "...it can take a couple of days for the wort to get down to the proper fermentation temperature, and many fermentation by-products are produced in the first days of fermentation."

And the warmer the wort, the more active the fermentation, and the more by-products for the yeast to have to clean up later, which will be less efficient because of the colder temps.

I'm going to try to get the wort temp down to 50°F, then pitch the 45°F starter slurry into the wort, and put the primary into the chest freezer set at around 48°F, watch for primary fermentation to wind down, give it a diacetyl rest at 55°F for 48 hours, then lager it at 35°F for 8 weeks.

Does this sound like a good plan to everyone?

Eskimo Spy said:

I'm going to try to get the wort temp down to 50°F, then pitch the 45°F starter slurry into the wort, and put the primary into the chest freezer set at around 48°F, watch for primary fermentation to wind down, give it a diacetyl rest at 55°F for 48 hours, then lager it at 35°F for 8 weeks.

Does this sound like a good plan to everyone?

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Absolutely. If you are pitching the proper amount of yeast, this it the way to go. In my experience, pitching at 48-50 with the proper amount of yeast, I have seen krausen and airlock activity within 24 hours (but if it takes longer that is OK).

One other question; I know I need to make a starter for this, and I'm not sure how large a starter to make. I think a 1 quart starter using 1 cup of DME should put me at about 1.040, then let that go until the main fermentation is over, put it in the fridge overnight, pour off most of the spent wort, whirl it a bit, and then pour it in the aforementioned cooled primary.

Does that sound about right?

Eskimo Spy said:

One other question; I know I need to make a starter for this, and I'm not sure how large a starter to make. I think a 1 quart starter using 1 cup of DME should put me at about 1.040, then let that go until the main fermentation is over, put it in the fridge overnight, pour off most of the spent wort, whirl it a bit, and then pour it in the aforementioned cooled primary.

Does that sound about right?

Click to expand...

That starter seems small for a lager. I'd do about double that. You can do it as planned, wait until it's fermented out and add some fresh (boiled and cooled) wort. That's called "stepping it up". You may want to check mrmalty.com and see what his pitching rate calculator says.

Eskimo Spy said:

One other question; I know I need to make a starter for this, and I'm not sure how large a starter to make. I think a 1 quart starter using 1 cup of DME should put me at about 1.040, then let that go until the main fermentation is over, put it in the fridge overnight, pour off most of the spent wort, whirl it a bit, and then pour it in the aforementioned cooled primary.

Does that sound about right?

Click to expand...

You are going to want a bigger starter than that or 2 packs of yeast.

See this:
Mr Malty Pitching Rate Calculator

Wow, there is a massive difference between Palmer's and Jamil's numbers...

Palmer suggests 110 - 170 billion for a lager with less than 1.055 OG, which is what I based my numbers on using 1 smack pack of Wyeast Danish lager.

Jamil suggests 357 billion for a lager of 1.051 OG, which would call for 4 quart starter using 1 smack pack of Wyeast Danish lager.

That's a huge difference! I assume that everyone would recommend following Jamil's numbers then, right?

Oh, and aren't the smack packs supposed to produce roughly 100 billion yeasts cells?

YooperBrew said:

That starter seems small for a lager. I'd do about double that. You can do it as planned, wait until it's fermented out and add some fresh (boiled and cooled) wort. That's called "stepping it up". You may want to check mrmalty.com and see what his pitching rate calculator says.

Click to expand...

So, go with a 2 quart starter, wait for it to ferment out, let it settle, pour out the liquid, then add another 2 quarts of boiled and cooled wort. Do I put the flask in the fridge after it ferments out to help separate things, or just turn off the stir plate and wait for things to settle?

I am going to pick up a stir plate and a 50mm stir bar this week and use my 2,000 ml flask to do this, so that should help!

Eskimo Spy said:

Do I put the flask in the fridge after it ferments out to help separate things, or just turn off the stir plate and wait for things to settle?

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This is what I like to do for lagers. Chill and decant the spent wort.

It is my understanding that Jamil's calculator is based on 1.5 billion cells/ml/degree Plato and I think that is considered the brewing standard for a lager.

Beerrific said:

This is what I like to do for lagers. Chill and decant the spent wort.

It is my understanding that Jamil's calculator is based on 1.5 billion cells/ml/degree Plato and I think that is considered the brewing standard for a lager.

Click to expand...

But is this what I should do if I'm "stepping it up," as Yoop suggested? Should I ferment, then refrigerate, then decant, and then put more boiled and cooled wort on top? Thanks for all the help.

Eskimo Spy said:

But is this what I should do if I'm "stepping it up," as Yoop suggested? Should I ferment, then refrigerate, then decant, and then put more boiled and cooled wort on top? Thanks for all the help.

Click to expand...

You can just add the fresh (cooled) wort to the starter, if you have enough room in there. Then chill and decant all of the spent wort.

YooperBrew said:

You can just add the fresh (cooled) wort to the starter, if you have enough room in there. Then chill and decant all of the spent wort.

Click to expand...

I had planned on doing this in my 2000ml flask, but it sounds like I need to go get a larger starter vessel...

Would a gallon jug be sufficient, or should I get a 3 gallon?

You can split the starter into 2 containers - i've often done that when stepping up. just ferment out the first step, then shake it good, split into two containers and divide your new wort into the 2.

I've also used 3 gallon carboys for large starters - that is probably the best way if you don't mind dropping the change on them. I bought 2 to do split 5 gallon batches with.

maltMonkey said:

You can split the starter into 2 containers - i've often done that when stepping up. just ferment out the first step, then shake it good, split into two containers and divide your new wort into the 2.

I've also used 3 gallon carboys for large starters - that is probably the best way if you don't mind dropping the change on them. I bought 2 to do split 5 gallon batches with.

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Nah, I don't mind, then I have even more crap to make beer with, plus it makes my brew closet look like a laboratory. Win-win.

Wait, crap, I was going to use a stir plate in my 2000ml flask. So, what's the best way to do this then?

I don't use a stir plate - you can get almost as good results just by putting the container in an area you are in a lot and shaking it for a few seconds whenever you walk by.

So, I'll get a 3 gallon jug, and make a gallon starter using 2 cups of DME, and use the stir plate and flask for ales then. Good enough.

Eskimo Spy said:

From what I've read, this is not ideal because, and I quote from Palmer's book, "How to Brew," "...it can take a couple of days for the wort to get down to the proper fermentation temperature, and many fermentation by-products are produced in the first days of fermentation."

And the warmer the wort, the more active the fermentation, and the more by-products for the yeast to have to clean up later, which will be less efficient because of the colder temps.

I'm going to try to get the wort temp down to 50°F, then pitch the 45°F starter slurry into the wort, and put the primary into the chest freezer set at around 48°F, watch for primary fermentation to wind down, give it a diacetyl rest at 55°F for 48 hours, then lager it at 35°F for 8 weeks.

Does this sound like a good plan to everyone?

Click to expand...

It's always worked fine for me and a dactyl rest and a long lagering process seems to work great for me. When I've pitched lager yeast at 50 degrees I sometimes will either get stuck fermentation. But that is what is nice about homebrewing. We can each do it our own way...I hope yours works out great...