Cider FAQ's

Hi there:

I was just wondering if anyone knew where a complete brew-noob (like me) can get thier hands on a Cider FAQ?

I know there are tons of questions you seasoned vets are tired of answering - so why not make a sticky out of them! Or if there is a post that pretty much covers this - can you point me in the right direction?

Thanks in advance!

gwin99 top of this page there is a FAQ and a search facility, if you cant find what your looking for just post. Alot of us are noobs and you will always find new people joining day by day so there will always be someone who will answer your question

amasterjedi: thanks for the info! Yeah, I do see that, but thought there may have been something more specific to cider brewing and all the terms and procedures that go along with it...

When i say I'm a noob - i mean i am brewing my first brew ever. So my fisr thing was to "purroose" the forum looking for info but all the posts i came across had terms i have no idea what they actually mean...

Like cold-crash. OK, so it obivous that it means you chill your brew, but to what extent? Does the cold kill or just slow/stop the fermentation process - if that doesnt kill them, should i go colder to do so - is it even possible to kill off the yeast with cold temps?

Also, say you have been fermenting in primary for 2 weeks - and you like everything about the brew, what steps do you take to "curb" fermentation further? Or is it as simple as k-sorbate and campden tabs - which i understand (please correct) doesnt really stop fermentation in its tracks, so it continues...?

I have more "easy" questions like this - but thought there may have been a "noob chapter" I have yet to come across.

mate just post all your questions numbered on a post right here, and people will answer them when they feel like it and then the post will be there for others to use, it will be a legacy...

Cold crash is A term which means exactally what it sounds like, you cool your cider and stop fermentation like its hitting a brick wall... It doesnt kill the yeast it merely sends them dormant, as far as i know you can not kill yeast with cold tempatures, like most bacteria (which yeast only loosely belong to that family) they go dormant at tempatures but can survive even extream cold... after Cold Crashing it is common to add K-Sor and/or Camp Tabs to kill yeast left in the brew and thus stop fermentation from restarting when the brew reaches normal temps again.

No K-Sor and Camp Tabs are not magic off buttons for fermentation, fermentation is a process, like acceleration it takes time to heat up and slow down, your right in assumeing that if you throw on the binders that it still takes time for the train to slow down... K-sor is a chemical preservative which prevents yeast propagation and kills yeast... Camp Tabs are sulfites, another more organic anti bacterial, more common in use for treating unpasturized juice rather then stopping fermentation because most brewing yeast shrugg off sulfites in low to moderate ammounts like it was never even there, its more for the killing of wild yeast and infectious bacteria also leveling the playing field so your selected yeast has a leg up

If you hit two weeks and you like everything about a brew i would sugest you let it keep going, it is quite possiable it will get even better with time... Cider takes more time then beer, two weeks is a very conservative estimate... try closer to 6-8 weeks for a real fine product... the most important fact about brewing is dont rush, be pacient

Being new i have a sugestion... Edwort has a recipe he calls Aphealwine, or some spelling its pretty easy to find you should try a simple 1 or two gallon batch of that... other then that you may just try buying some apple juice which has no preservatives and pouring it into a foodgrade bucket and then adding in some brewers yeast and letting her rip and seeing where it leads... again if you have any questions just ask and im sure sombody will answer then for you... and be sure to fallow proper brewing practices; Clean, sanitize, rise, repeat... then brew... also i forgot, look up on the net and see if you have a homebrew shop near you, the people who work at them are often quite knowlegeable... or they dont know a damn thing, one of the two... or they know all the wrong things... that is always a possiblity, so always fact check...

Cheers

Thanks BrewinJack!


I dont to be dense (which i admit - i am ), can you cold crash in the frigde, or does it have to be colder like a freezer? And for how long is the cold crash process (how long do you leave it in there) before you add the k-sor & tabs? is it a "visual thing", like will you see the yest drop out of suspension (lees)? so i guess racking would be in order before you add the k-sor & tabs? Sorry, but I'm one of those people that like directions with pictures or at least a step-by-step! LOL

Also, my two weeks question was a precursor to my real one - which is about "sweetness"... Is the only option, with brewing cider, to "backsweeten" (let it ferment dry, then add sugar & juice to taste) or is there a procedure/process one can do to keep more of the orginial body and flavor of the cider in your finished product?

I was thinking of somehow stopping the fermentation process now (not looking for anything above beer alcho - maybe 3-5% tops) and have it age, keeping alot of the apple cider notes and flavor with it verse a more "drier" finished product...

Any help/tips on this would be most helpful! Thanks!

If that is your desire, I would suggest you ferment straight juice with no sugar added. That will get you between 4-6ish % abv. Once it ferments dry, yes I suggest backsweetening. You can backsweeten with apple juice or juice concentrate if you are concerned with using plain sugar. However, it is very difficult to stop fermentation early, even with cold crashing sometimes, and it is easier and more consistent to backsweeten.

Thanks Tusch! If i used Apple Cider, would it be a bad thing to backsweeten with more apple cider? I ask because i'm really trying to keep the apple cider taste in the finished product... I gather the juice used in b~sweetening will impart flavors/body of that juice, which is why i asked about using cider instead of juice....

some people keep a small part of their raw juice in the freezer and then backsweeten with it so the flavors profile remain coherent.

I would not sugest cold crashing and useing preservatives... i would sugest you fallow Tusch sugestion, find a nosugar added organic cider with not preservatives which has and been properly pasturized and stablized with Vitimin C take about 5 gallons in a carboy and add yeast nutrient and a very simple brewers yeast, probably a bottom fermenting yeast... for some reason no names are comming to me specifically but i do have the tale end of a migrain so i am not completely lucide, most brewers on this site would condem me for at this point mentioning that simple bakers yeast will produce the results of a lower ABV. But bakers yeast tends to ferment dirty (rough flavors) and have a slightly bready after taste if not properly racked and cleared, for a first time i would not sugest it, but in the future you may play with the idea ... after that allow the batch to ferment for about 2-3 weeks then rack the liquid off the yeast cake(the less deposites at the bottm of the carboy) and allow to clear in secondary fermentation... this step is optional some brewers dont use secondary with cider for thier own reasons... let sit an additional time which you will need to determine based on how much fermentation to still see happening before you racked, if fermentation was completely finnished before you racked then simply test your SG after rack for three days for consistancy (having the same SG 3 days in a row is equal to having completed fermentation) if your above say, 1.008 or maybe even as low as 1.006(if lower you will likely need to backsweeten more) you will have a sweeter (not nessacryily a sweet cider, just sweeter then that produced by a lower SG) cider with out much need to backsweeten more then the recomended ammount of priming sugar... If fermentation was still going on at a noticeable rate with out sign of wavering check on a dayily or every other day basis to see if it slows or until you get the required 3 consistent SG readings... racking will likely temporaily reinvigor fermentation for as much as twelve hours and then it will settle back to its former state, dont worry if this happends or dosent it is merely a possibility.... just to clarify heres a small step by step instruction on what i would recomend for your first batch, im sure others would also recomend there own sugestions simple choose which one you think best.

1: purchase 5 gallons of preservative free, no added sugar apple cider or juice, which ever you prefer
1A: Purchase a beer hydrometer, seeing as you do not wish high achohal content a beer hydrometer will work just fine
1B: purchase 1 packet of dry brewers yeast, or a liquid yeast pack from your local brew shop or source
2: add to fermenter, either carboy or food grade bucket with airlock, and yeast. (before adding yeast check SG for OG reading)
3: Allow to set for 2-3 weeks
4: Rack off less into secondary fermenter if wished, if not wished allow to ferment until stopped as stated above
5:Take Final SG reading
6:Backsweeten to taste if required
7:Bottle
8:Wait 2-4 weeks if desired (i normally only wait 2 weeks but some wait as long as 6 months)
9:Enjoy
10: Do it again

just my sugestion, hope things work out

Cheers

To backsweeten you must stop renewed fermentation, I've never used cold crashing so would suggest doing it chemically. But you must take some steps to prevent renewed fermentation, prior to backsweetening.

so after reading the posts (here and elsewhere), heres my questions:

1: What is the process of stopping an active fermentation. I ask this as i am now confused - my local brew shop told me that i would have to do this once the "must?" has reached a desired flavor. But I keep reading that there is no way to do this, and that i would have to let it ferment dry then backsweeten.

2: Is he right or wrong, or do i have it backwards somehow ?

3: I have read from another post that it was (maybe for him, if not) practice to cold-crash then "stabilize" chemically - with k-sor and campden tabs. Is this a personal choice, or a standard procedure like sanitizing? Or is it two different methods for the same goal?

Thanks guys for all the posts and info - hopefully i can stop badgering you with questions soon!

badger away we all think we all like to be asked brewing questions because it allows us to pass knowelge of our experience and seprate prefrences...

in reply to 1, i am sorry you are confused, you can stop fermentation close to a desired flavor be never exactally... cold crashing works, you need to put it some where cold, definatly at or just slightly below 32F degrees... this will casue in most yeast 80-90% dormanciy in a 24-48 hour periode. The achohal content will not allow the wort to freeze quickly and you must be careful because if it freezes it will not clear properly, according to a text i have it refers to "chill haze" which will cause discoloration or hazy cider or beer... During cold crash you will see your yeast begin to drop out of solution in the form of less on the bottom of the fermenter. This will reduce the ammount of yeast in solution (provided you dont shake it up and disturb the less) by roughtly 75-80%,some yeast will remain in solution despite all your efforts. After no more then 48hours you should remove the wort from the fridge and rack it into a prechilled container (simply another fermenter which has been keep at roughly the same tempature as your now chilled wort. Rack the cider off the less into the second container, careful not to disturb the less and get it back into solution. After you have racked as much cider as possiable with out disturbing the yeast take and SG reading and taste... this is only becasue there will have been a change since you started cold crashing because it will have taken time to stop fermentation. Before the brew warms above 40 degrees you will need to put in an ammount of Camp Tabs and K-Sorb or other anit-yeast chems. try and keep the tempature down for the nest 6-12 hours so the chemicals can do thier work and knock any remaining yeast out. Then for another 12-24 hours return to below 32F degrees to have dead yeast fall out of solution, as well as likely 80-90% of any remaining yeast left in solution. At this point your yeast count in neligable and even if they do re-animate from cold crash they will not be able to reporduce and the current generation will die off with in 24 hours... this the simplest and most effective way to stop fermentation completely but you will have a differnt in flavor from when you decided to stop to when you finally finnish. After you have completed this, taste and if you like it then bottle it. Unless you have a carbonateing setup you can not carbonate this, there are no yeast left to produce carbonation.

Theoretically you can reduce the ammount of yeast by cold crashing over and over again by nearly 95% but this will most definatly cause chil haze if not done properly and then you would not have to worry about a large ammount of fermentation due to the surviving yeast, you could add priming sugar and bottle with out much worry of bottle bombs because of such a low yeast count.

The other alternative has already been explained, you can let ferment completely and backsweeten, which is infinatly simpler and farm more consistant because you literally sweeten to taste, its how you want it and its as persice as you want it to be.

to reply to number 2: He is not wrong, he is merely telling you what he believes is the best way, brewing is done completely to preference and ability.

To reply to 3: Yes this is a personal choice, there is no standard on how to produce home made hard cider, its a craft. It would be like saying that there is only one way to make chocolate chip cookies, which there are actully thousands of ways to make them, same with cider.

As stated before, I would not sugest cold crashing or useing chemical preservatives at all, they are extra added variables and are extra possiable headakes if done incorrectly or somtimes even if done correctly... I would sugest getting a couple of batches the old fashioned way done under your belt before you start playing with the chemicals and gagets. And remember Brewing is personal preference, and what you believe is with in your ability to do with out causeing injuy or death to yourself, and of course somtimes money is an object. Technique is only 15-20% of this hobby... say another 30-35% is ingeedants, and time, and equipment. 5-10% is luck, and the last and alrgest chunck of all that last 40-45% is just plain ass what you want out of brewin, your preference, and peception of what you want... So rule number one is "that there is no concreat rules", except rule 0, and rule zero is "make sure everything is really damn clean"

I think you should try jumping in and getting your feet wet

cheers

BrewinJack: You are my new "best friend"!

Now it all makes sense... I feel now that I'm not so blind going into this - and more comfortable in doing so.

last question : Is it a "bad thing" to rack more than 2-3 times before conditioning? I ask becuase i just racked-off from my secondary fermenter (cleaned, sani, and put back in) but it had only been in the secondary for a week... Is that too early or its really a visual thing (lees on bottom)? And how long would it have to sit on the lees to impart these off flavors?

The motivation behind this was the tidbit of info that "you dont want to leave your brew sitting on the lees too long, it may impart bad/off flavors". I had about 1/2 inch of lees on bottom when i decided to do this...


Thanks again!

ok well that aounds like a goodly deal of less, this is purely basses on the type of yeast you are useing... some yeast enpart a bad flavor if you leave it on the yeast; most prominant Plain bakers yeast, some lager yeast (if not lagered (for the record lagering is fermentation at low tempatures less then 40F degrees) mostly), and some wine yeast, also plain redstar champage yeast. Some that i have known not to produce off flavors Coopers cider yeast, most cider yeast in fact, Ale yeast tend to not cause flavor problems as well. This is a genral statment the only way to know is if you ask sombody who has left it on that piticular yeast and noticed a problem or no problem. Differnt yeast cause differnt negitive and positive things. So inorder to know specifically i would have to know what yeast your useing.


THe number of times you rack is a complex variable... you see every time you rack you intoduce O2 into the brew which causes oxidation... during rigoris fermentation this is not bad, yeast process O2 like most orginism and during the heaviest fermentation so recipies sugest a brew bubbler(a mettle fish tank bubbler normally made out of stainless steel or aluminium which is normally unpainted but sealed with a nutral polimer so it does not effect its enviorment, if desiered DO NOT use a plastic on, they gum up and are not ment to be put in somthing that is later to be drunk) to introduce more O2 during heavy fermentation and speed things up (lack of O2 is often why brews stall or flame out, or slow after inital fermentation because there is less 02 and the yeast are foced to work harder, like a runner breathing hard)

But after primary introduction of O2 is a negitive thing, it causes Oxidation which produceds off flavors with in it self and possiable contamination, and also it dirupts the frigile finnish chemistry of the yeast during the later stages of fermentation.... so if you must rack more tehn say 2-3 times you must be very careful at all times not to splash and not disrupt the liquid as much as possiable. Racking a fourth time will cause very little problems if you are careful, a fifth is pushihng it, and a sixth your asking for trouble and your likely gonna get it... after 4 rackings (the fifth or sixth time) you can pretty much chuck any off flavors up to oxidation

The normal racking

1st from primary into secondary (some dont even do this one)

2nd from secondary into bottling bucket (for some this is the only time)

IF you use cold crashing (but when cold crashing oidation is not as large an issue because Oxidation is lower at lower tampatures)

1st when going from primary to secondary (this is a must in my experience because the already establised yeast cake grows signifcantly and forces you to sacrife more cider not to disturbe the yeast)

2nd from cashed secondary (The fermenter you crashed your brew in) into the prechilled fermenter you had standing by

3rd from your prechilled (call it your chem pail where you put in your chemicals and completely stalled your brew and let the last of the yeast to settle out) into your bottleing bucket

so you can likley safely add atleast 2 more rackings to each of these break downs (the cold crash one only because you have kept the tempature down)

You can propbably see why cold crashing to stop fermentation multiple times would cause definate problems because of such a large ammount of racking

It is rally a taste and a visual thing... if you think you got too much less and arent sure the take a thimble full and give it a taste, if seems like its starting to pick up the yeasty flavor and so off flavors then rack... if not then check again the next day the same way and so on. If you see a cloudy residue in the cider then defiantly rack into a santized pail... if your not sure taste and look, if things seem ok they probably are... if things seem off then they probably arent ok.

I am sure that isnt your last question, go ahead and keep asking.

Cheers

I very much like the detailed posts!

I used Lavlin d-47 in a 5 gallon carboy, fermenting about 2 1/2 galons of fresh apple cider. I had started to notice some bad smells from the carboy and was thinking infection? Only because it wasnt the same smell as before (from primary)...

Whats the tell-tale signs of an infected cider?

I'll admit, i dropped like 4 campden tabs in there over 48hrs ago in a rushed decision but, now looking to see if it was a legitamate concern or over-reaction...

For a new brewer - affectionately called noobs, back sweetening with a none ferment able sugar substitute is the best answer.
You have converted all the sugar in the cider/juice to alcohol, and it can get pretty dry tasting. All your doing is adjusting the taste to your liking.
Crash cooling, chemicals, etc are other options down the line but just starting out. Keep it as simple as you can so you enjoy making it, and you enjoy drinking it. There is ton's of time and more brews to get complicated on.
By the way, welcome to homebrewing.

gwin99 said:

I very much like the detailed posts!

I used Lavlin d-47 in a 5 gallon carboy, fermenting about 2 1/2 galons of fresh apple cider. I had started to notice some bad smells from the carboy and was thinking infection? Only because it wasnt the same smell as before (from primary)...

Whats the tell-tale signs of an infected cider?

I'll admit, i dropped like 4 campden tabs in there over 48hrs ago in a rushed decision but, now looking to see if it was a legitamate concern or over-reaction...

Click to expand...

I hate to say it but you over reacted... many call the smelly fermenter you discribe as a stage called "rhino farts" in which some of the more organic componets of the juice and the yeast decompse in the fermenter and cause a slightly rank smell... i actully like the smell... the camptabs probably severly stunded things and likely you may have kill your batch... or maybe your yeast shrugged off the sulfites... either way you were on the right track, lets just hope you still are... infections are actully qutie hard to get with good brewing practices of cleaning and sanitizeing... in over 6 years of brewin not once have i had an infection (knock on wood)... keep an eye on this, if you see no signs of fermentation in a few days then youve knocked out your yeast with the camptabs and you may have to decide what to do then...

If it is stalled then you should either let the sulfites die out and then repinch your yeast with a a cup or two(loose not packed) of brown sugar and see if you can get it to restart then fement out compeltely...

Or you can taste it and see if you like the taste, after the sulfites are out of the picture and then decide not to restart fermentation. and just bottle.

If you restart fermentation with more yeast and added sugar you will have a higher ABV then you orginally predicted and it will take a much longer time to ferment out.

Cheers

Crap - but i'm glad this is normal... woulda been a mental "setback" if it was an infection...

It's clearing now and it looks like it knocked the rest of the yeast out, as you predicted... So I went ahead and took a taste - very sweet... almost too sweet. but has the right "notes" - tastewise, withstanding only that i think i should add just a tiny tiny bit tartness.

I have read that people use citric acid and others have used tannin? what are the pro's and cons of these? is one generally better than the other - when adding "tart" to the brew?

Do i have this wrong - that these are not used this way?

Thanks to all and have a Merry Christmas!!!

I would be more concerned with whether or not it is finished fermenting. If you did manage to stun the yeast, you should try to restart fermentation. Perhaps with a racking and repitching new yeast.

BrewinJack - Not a knock, but please.

Break up your post with more paragraphs. I am just having a hard time processing what your writing.

Maybe I'm just suffering from getting old, but...

Once again, I actually like reading what your writing, it just kind of hard to read through it. Thank you for sharing.

gwin99 said:

I have read that people use citric acid and others have used tannin? what are the pro's and cons of these? is one generally better than the other - when adding "tart" to the brew?

Click to expand...

Citric acid and tannin are two completely different flavors. The first is sour, basically what you taste on the dusting of a Super Sour Tearjerker, if you remember those candies. The second is astringent/bitter. If you know that back-of-the-tongue dryness/bitterness black tea or red wine has, that's tannin.

tear jerkers and cry babies were awesome.

Tusch said:

I would be more concerned with whether or not it is finished fermenting. If you did manage to stun the yeast, you should try to restart fermentation. Perhaps with a racking and repitching new yeast.

Click to expand...

It hasnt had any noticable activity in the airlock in the last few days - which is fine here. I know time really isnt a true measure of fermentaion, but its been about 7weeks since initial pitch. Plus my goal was something without a lot of heat/punch behind it. Combined with the fact that its just about cleared, I'm all for sticking a fork in it at this point - only to now address its sweetness...

pulykamell said:

Citric acid and tannin are two completely different flavors. The first is sour, basically what you taste on the dusting of a Super Sour Tearjerker, if you remember those candies. The second is astringent/bitter. If you know that back-of-the-tongue dryness/bitterness black tea or red wine has, that's tannin.

Click to expand...

I gather that these are used to taste but, are they used together or separately? And would Tannin be the best way to go when trying to make a brew less sweet - or maybe some water?

Adding water will cut the sweetness, it will also cut the alcohol and the flavor.

My concern with bottling a stuck ferment is that you could reawaken the yeast. If the yeast are currently dormant but there is still plenty of sugars left for them, then if you bottle or even just rack it, that agitation could be enough to kick the yeast back into action. If this was caused by you bottling, then you have a risk for bottle bombs.

It is never smart to bottled a brew that still has sugar left in it, unless you have stabilized, killed or removed the yeast and are sure they will not awaken again.

Kauai_Kahuna said:

BrewinJack - Not a knock, but please.

Break up your post with more paragraphs. I am just having a hard time processing what your writing.

Maybe I'm just suffering from getting old, but...

Once again, I actually like reading what your writing, it just kind of hard to read through it. Thank you for sharing.

Click to expand...

I got you Kauai i tend to get lost in the momment and forget to divide up what im writing. I will try in the future

Cheers

Kauai_Kahuna said:

For a new brewer - affectionately called noobs, back sweetening with a none ferment able sugar substitute is the best answer.
You have converted all the sugar in the cider/juice to alcohol, and it can get pretty dry tasting. All your doing is adjusting the taste to your liking.
Crash cooling, chemicals, etc are other options down the line but just starting out. Keep it as simple as you can so you enjoy making it, and you enjoy drinking it. There is ton's of time and more brews to get complicated on.
By the way, welcome to homebrewing.

Click to expand...

So you're saying probably Splenda here. Is that really considered acceptable? I would think it would impart a fairly artificial flavor in most people's opinions.
I am just asking though; i could be wrong.

BrewinJack said:

..... Before the brew warms above 40 degrees you will need to put in an ammount of Camp Tabs and K-Sorb or other anit-yeast chems. try and keep the tempature down for the nest 6-12 hours so the chemicals can do thier work and knock any remaining yeast out. .

Click to expand...

Hey jack, im curious when you say 'an amount of camp and k-sorb' how much are we talking? for the orginal 5 gallon batch i put 5 camp tabs in to kill any wild yeast, but now that ive cold crashed and am looking to just get this set up to backsweeten, how much of each do i really need? im afriad to use too much and affect the flavor but certainly dont want fermentation to start again either...

About BrewinJack's "Simple Cider Recipe":

This is great. I plan to use it tomorrow, in conjunction with an ingredient list in another book, to guide the brewing of my first cider (a Traditional, sparkling one). My only question is (now that I've figured out that boiling the clear cider is a no-no): when do I add the yeast nutrient? At the same time I pitch the Nottingham into the cider in the primary fermenter?

I'm guessing my question is so stupid that it doesn't deserve an answer! Guess I'll just pitch it along with the yeast...

Cheers!