75-100% Oat Beer?

I have a mind to try to brew an all-oat beer. I guess it might be called "Oat Wine" without any barley? Or it might be called "stupid and impossible" without any barley?

Being as that I'm pretty sure it IS impossible without barley, do you think I could get by with say 8 pounds of oats and 1 pound of 2-Row for enzymes in a mash?

I don't really know what I'll get if I try this. I just love oatmeal, and I want an oatmeal beer that is cloudy, white, thick, and smoooooooth. Am I crazy or could something like this be done?

Fawcett makes malted oats. Northern Brewer carries it.

Using that Fawcett Oat Malt, I could use just oats, right?

This isn't a good idea, is it?

Rice hulls, lots and lots of rice hulls.

I think it was Bugeater (on thebrewingnetwork.com) who made a 100% oat beer with good results. I think you should try it.

lupulin said:

Rice hulls, lots and lots of rice hulls.

Click to expand...

I think I'm going to order 8# of that Fawcett Oat Malt. I'll probably use 1# of Pale DME in the recipe as well, mainly because the idea of all-grain is too daunting for me; I can handle an 88% Oat / 12% Barley beer.

Now, I've done searches on raisins, and other types of sugar, but I'm not sure what adjuncts I should use in this. I was thinking golden raisins.

Also, am I going to have issues with tannin extraction? From what I've read, too much oat in the grist and you get that astringency that nobody likes (I sure don't). Should I mash lower in an attempt to avoid this, or is it unavoidable, or what? Also, what yeast should I think of using?

Honestly, if you have never mashed anything before, I doubt you will get anything but a big bowl of oatmeal in you mash tun, that will never be able to be turned into beer. Start out with regular beer, then once you get the hang of how things should be done, move on to the experiments. Bug may have made a successful all oat beer, but he has also been brewing for years.

Any idea what kind of diastatic power you'd get from malted oats?

rph33 said:

I think I'm going to order 8# of that Fawcett Oat Malt. I'll probably use 1# of Pale DME in the recipe as well, mainly because the idea of all-grain is too daunting for me; I can handle an 88% Oat / 12% Barley beer.

Now, I've done searches on raisins, and other types of sugar, but I'm not sure what adjuncts I should use in this. I was thinking golden raisins.

Also, am I going to have issues with tannin extraction? From what I've read, too much oat in the grist and you get that astringency that nobody likes (I sure don't). Should I mash lower in an attempt to avoid this, or is it unavoidable, or what? Also, what yeast should I think of using?

Click to expand...

1) If AG is daunting for you then avoid this beer. Oats are going to be tricky to mash and sparge.

2) Why do you think you need adjuncts? Do you use adjuncts with your other beers?

3) I'm not sure about the tannins, but I do think they will be a problem if you mash and sparge correctly.

I think it is possible to make an all oat beer using oat malt. It will require alot of rice hulls because oats do not have much hulls. You will probably want to do a protein rest to help break down the large amount of proteins in oats.
I do not think you need DME or any other adjuncts, however I have no idea what the result will be like. You may get better results by making it like you would a wheat beer with 60% oats and 40% pale malt.

And yes I do think you are crazy for trying.

Craig

flyangler18 said:

Any idea what kind of diastatic power you'd get from malted oats?

Click to expand...

It has none according to the website, so it seems you would have to use at least 40% 2-row to even be able to convert the mash.

BarleyWater said:

It has none according to the website, so it seems you would have to use at least 40% 2-row to even be able to convert the mash.

Click to expand...

That's what I thought; this would be a nightmare to mash.

BarleyWater said:

Honestly, if you have never mashed anything before, I doubt you will get anything but a big bowl of oatmeal in you mash tun, that will never be able to be turned into beer. Start out with regular beer, then once you get the hang of how things should be done, move on to the experiments. Bug may have made a successful all oat beer, but he has also been brewing for years.

Click to expand...

I do partial mash brewing. I've done SI mashes, and made beers using as little as 1# DME (like my last Witbier). I don't think it would be that hard to change my brewing technique to introduce a protein rest into the mash schedule... but maybe I'm just being ignorant?

What would be the criteria to keep the oats from being just a "big bowl of oatmeal"?

CBBaron said:

1) If AG is daunting for you then avoid this beer. Oats are going to be tricky to mash and sparge.

2) Why do you think you need adjuncts? Do you use adjuncts with your other beers?

3) I'm not sure about the tannins, but I do think they will be a problem if you mash and sparge correctly.

I think it is possible to make an all oat beer using oat malt. It will require alot of rice hulls because oats do not have much hulls. You will probably want to do a protein rest to help break down the large amount of proteins in oats.
I do not think you need DME or any other adjuncts, however I have no idea what the result will be like. You may get better results by making it like you would a wheat beer with 60% oats and 40% pale malt.

And yes I do think you are crazy for trying.

Craig

Click to expand...

Speaking of protein rests, I understand that there would be a need to do one if I was using a large amount of FLAKED Oats in a mash with some 2-row. But if I was using MALTED oats, like they have at Northern Brewer, wouldn't a protein rest just overly thin-out the beer? Reading what John Palmer has to say, he says NOT to use a protein rest on "fully modified malts". Now, I don't know exactly what this means; would Oat Malt qualify as a "lesser", "moderate", or "fully" modified malt?

I'm fine with being crazy. If anyone thinks I'm STUPID for trying, I might call it off. But crazy I can deal with.

BarleyWater said:

It has none according to the website, so it seems you would have to use at least 40% 2-row to even be able to convert the mash.

Click to expand...

That seems strange to me... what is the point of having "Malted Oats" if they can't be implemented any differently from Flaked Oats? They both require mashing, and they both can't even convert themselves... so what's the difference?

rph33 said:

That seems strange to me... what is the point of having "Malted Oats" if they can't be implemented any differently from Flaked Oats? They both require mashing, and they both can't even convert themselves... so what's the difference?

Click to expand...

Ostensibly, because it is malted, you are getting some flavor and perhaps some color but it has zero diastatic power. You mash 8# of malted oats and it's not going to do a thing conversionwise other than make a gluey mess. You need some sort of base malt with enough diastatic power to convert both itself and the malted oats.

Aaack!

You sunk my oat-beer-ship. Well, thanks for keeping me from wasting the money, I guess. Hehe.

rph33 said:

Aaack!

You sunk my oat-beer-ship. Well, thanks for keeping me from wasting the money, I guess. Hehe.

Click to expand...

If you're intent on trying it, do an experimental (2.5 gallon) batch.

Good luck!

Alright, if I WAS intent on trying something like this, but not stupid enough to try and bend the laws of chemistry, I would do this:

2# Pale DME
4# Pale 2-Row
6# Malted Oats
?# Rice Hulls (How much to avoid a clogged mash?)
1oz. Hallertauer 60 min.
WLP862 Cry Havoc Yeast @ Ale temperatures (starter)

Does this look nasty or stupid or what? Don't worry, my experimental tendencies won't be killed by a reply of "stupid idea, brew a Hef instead"

I just happened to be in the bathroom and grabbed a random issue of Zymurgy to get things flowing. (I know, too much information). The July/August 2007 issue talks about brewing with oat malt and I remembered this post. Thomas Fawcett in Britain makes oat malt and it is imported into the US by North Country Malt.

The Thomas Fawcett variety does have enough diastic power for conversion and according to the article a 100% oat beer can and has been made. The biggest issue is the size of the oat kernel which is way smaller than barley, so you'd need to mill it with way smaller gap settings. The article also states that there will probably not be many enzymes left to convert specialty grains, so you'd need to go with a single malt beer or add some 2-row to help out. Lastly, the fact that they can self convert means that they would work well for steeping in an extract brew or you could partial mash.

Hope this helps out, now I'm intrigued on using oat malt for a beer as well.

Thanks McKBrew. I saw the listing on North Country Malt which lists a zero DP for malted oats, so I didn't think that would work. I'm intrigued now.

Watch out for a stuck sparge

hopsalot said:

Watch out for a stuck sparge

Click to expand...

That was the other thing they mentioned. Rice hulls would definitely be in order here.

McKBrew said:

I just happened to be in the bathroom and grabbed a random issue of Zymurgy to get things flowing. (I know, too much information). The July/August 2007 issue talks about brewing with oat malt and I remembered this post. Thomas Fawcett in Britain makes oat malt and it is imported into the US by North Country Malt.

The Thomas Fawcett variety does have enough diastic power for conversion and according to the article a 100% oat beer can and has been made. The biggest issue is the size of the oat kernel which is way smaller than barley, so you'd need to mill it with way smaller gap settings. The article also states that there will probably not be many enzymes left to convert specialty grains, so you'd need to go with a single malt beer or add some 2-row to help out. Lastly, the fact that they can self convert means that they would work well for steeping in an extract brew or you could partial mash.

Hope this helps out, now I'm intrigued on using oat malt for a beer as well.

Click to expand...

SWEET! This is the info I wanted to hear...

I myself don't own a mill. If I went to my LHBS and told them to "mill this Oat Malt with smaller gap settings", would they know what I'm talking about and be able to do it, or would they look at me like I'm insane?

And finally, HOW MUCH RICE HULL WOULD I NEED?

Anyone consider adding amylase enzyme powder directly to the mash?

You are not so much looking for a protein rest as you are looking for a β-glucanase rest. This is more in the 40C region but there is overlap with the protein rest range. But I'm not sure how bad the β-glucan problem is with oats.

Kai

rph33 said:

SWEET! This is the info I wanted to hear...

I myself don't own a mill. If I went to my LHBS and told them to "mill this Oat Malt with smaller gap settings", would they know what I'm talking about and be able to do it, or would they look at me like I'm insane?

And finally, HOW MUCH RICE HULL WOULD I NEED?

Click to expand...

They might not be willing to reset it for you, but you probably could run it through twice and get a similar effect. I think the second recipe you posted would work very well, and I'm still not sure on the DP of the malted oats, so the 2-row in there would help. Even if Zymurgy says so, the list of malts Thomas Fawcett has on their website has a dash right through the diastic power spot. If it has no DP, and you don't use any 2-row, the starches will congeal instead of convert, and you will be left will a gooey doughy mess. Thomas Fawcett & Sons LTD.

I've never used near that much oat in a beer, but I would say 1/2 - 1 lb of rice hulls. It won't add anything to the beer, so you may just be safe and go fotr the whole pound.

I ordered 4# of Fawcett Oat Malt and 2# of Simpson's Golden Naked Oats just now. The Golden Naked Oats are said to impart a unique berry-nut like flavor; I'm going to do the following recipe, plus any suggestions, to try and impart a smooth flavor with as much berry / apple / fruit accent as I can bring out, since the oats themselves likely won't have much flavor.

4# American 6-Row (Higher diastatic power than 2-Row)
4# Fawcett Oat Malt
2# Simpson's Golden Naked Oats
1# Rice Hulls
1 TSP 5.2 stabilizer in mash, 1 TSP 5.2 stabilizer in sparge
Mash 90 minutes @ 150F with 1.25Q / pound of grain, sparge 45 minutes with 169F water
1oz. Hallertauer 60 min.
WLP862 Cry Havoc (Apple / berry flavors when used at ale temperatures)

Any suggestions? Should I consider adding actual berries to accent the flavors that the Simpsons and Cry Havoc should create? I don't want it to be a berry-beer per se, but should I add just a little to give it some character, and if so, what type of berry sounds good? Or is there some other type of malt that would give some of the subtle berry-apple flavors I'm going for?

bump? hehehe

bump again!

anyone know what could accent / add some berry n apple flavor to this?

Please don't bump. We'll see your thread, don't worry. As for berry flavors, I think since this is an experimental batch, just leave the recipe as is and tweak from there.

rph33 said:

bump again!

anyone know what could accent / add some berry n apple flavor to this?

Click to expand...

No need to bump. You are the pioneer here, and we are all looking to you for guidance and wisdom.

For the berry/apple flavor I'd look to the yeast to provide those fruity esters. Go to either the Wyeast or White Labs website and look over their yeast strains to see what yeast/temperature would give you the results you are looking for.

Another vote for no fruit addition. Just see what comes of the oats and that yeast.

Ok, I'll post again during the brew process and I'll try to take pictures Sorry about the bumpin

Any update on this? Seems like it has been long enough to have some results. I answered another general inquiry on this and am curious now....

I joined after the thread started or I would have recommended doing a beta glucanase rest like keiser sugested at 117-18 degrees for about 15 minutes or so.. it goes a LONG way in preventing stuck sparges on beers heavy in oats and such.... really helps break down the gummyness of the mash..... along with a pound of rice hulls I am confident you could get this to sparge just fine if you go nice and slow


I do a oatmeal stout that has 2# of oats for a 5 gallon batch I take the oats and a pound of 2 row and do a seperate beta glucanase rest for 15 minutes at 117 degrees then add the rest of my strike water and grains and mash at 156 till conversion.... no rice hulls and even with that large amount of oats I dont get stuck sparges......


Hell.... actualy looks like a good idea I might have to make a nice oat beer soon and see what happens

Oh and the golden naked oats I have ALLWAYS wanted to try... they are basicaly kilned oats like a crystal malt..... I have my own method for making something similiar for my oatmeal stout.... and it does add a nice nutty/berry flavor.....



OH YEA..... How did this turn out?!?!?!?!?!?!

He hasn't been around since Febrewary, so we'll see if he lets us know the outcome, but I am interested in knowing how this turned out.

michaelm said:

I have my own method for making something similiar for my oatmeal stout.... and it does add a nice nutty/berry flavor.....

Click to expand...

Ths thread seems like a good place to share that process for the oats. I am interested. I have been doing SMaSH recipe with oven roasted variations on the grain. I ould love to hear your process with the oats.

And do you have the stout recipe posted? If not PM me, or start a thread, I would love to hear it.

Well basicaly what I do with my oats is using a spray bottle I spray them down and get them pretty evenly damp.... for lack of a better term I would say they are pretty wet.... not soupy or any extra water but the grains are pretty well soaked...

I then seal them up in a turkey bag nice and tight (or anything else you can think of that will stay sealed and not let any of the moisture go away)

then I place them in an oven right at around 150 (anything between 140-160) wait till the grain reach a temp of about 150 degrees and then maintain it for 30-40 minutes I then remove them open the bag and spread out in an even layer on a cookie sheet and kiln them in the oven at ~300 degrees turning and stirring so they brown up nice and even..... I usualy shoot for an nice gold color and keep a sample of regular oats to compare too till I get the color I want(actually takes alot longer then I thought it would at first....)

darker you roast it more of a nutty flavor you pull outta the grains it seems.... the difference is that initial 30-40 minutes in the over at 140-160 degrees and wet really "sweetens" the grains up for that sweet berry/nutty flavor.... its subtle but there....

Oh and I dont use any special oats.... just whatever quick rolled non salted oats I can find in bulk at my grocery at the time


I think I have some pics of it on my home computer(At GF's house right now) if I can find them up I will post to my photobucket and post the link so you can see the color I go for....


As for my recipie... oh gees I will share any of my other recipies... this one right now is a secret LOL its really the only recipie I have made I think could win ALOT of awards or even be a flagship brew if I ever get the brewpub I allways dreamed about open but I will give you a hint it has


maris otter for base malt
the raosted oatmeal I just described
Honey malt
chocolate malt
coffee malt
and is bittered with EKG

I would not worry about your recipe too much. Even if you post the exact recipe that you are using to produce your trademark brew now at homebrew scale, I think you will find that scaling that recipe to production levels will still require ALOT of adaptation, especially if you are roasting an ingredient to your own specifications. Such has been my experience in scaling recipes and production.

All that aside, the info you gave me is great. Do you mash on the hot end for body? I can see it being great. The recipe I have been working on uses 2row for the base and I am working on the oats (hence reading this thread)

I thought you were using malted oats though, as we had been discussing that.

Post those picts. and Mail me a beer so I can reverse engineer your goodness!

When does your brew pub open?

Yea I mash at 156 till conversion....

I take a pound of my base malt and all my oats and do a minimash at 117-118 for a beta glucan rest to cut down the gummyness of the mash then add the rest of my strike water and grains and hold it at 156 till its done...... experimenting with mashouts or no mashouts.......

michaelm said:

As for my recipie... oh gees I will share any of my other recipies... this one right now is a secret LOL its really the only recipie I have made I think could win ALOT of awards or even be a flagship brew if I ever get the brewpub I allways dreamed about open but I will give you a hint

Click to expand...

In all the time I've spent on HBT, that is a first. Freakin hilarious.