Hop stand

gkeusch said:

Can the hop stand concept work using whole hops in a paint strainer bag?

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That's exactly what I use. When I add them, I stir in a circle really good for a minute or so, cover the top if the keggle with a kitchen towel and then let it sit for the remainder of the time.

I've used hop standing quite a few times and it's the way to go. I wouldn't be too caught up in the amount/oz. you use. I think it's more dependent on what style of beer you are brewing (pale ale, IPA, DIPA) and what type of hops you are using for the hop stand. That said, I did a pale recently and used a hop stand with a 4 oz. mix of citra, mosaic, amarillo, and simcoe in a 10 gal. batch and it was the perfect amount for flavor and aroma. I also dry hop on top of it. I've got a White IPA in the primary fermenter right now and used 4.5oz. for the hop stand (nelson, mosaic, citra) and am doing a Blind Pig IPA Clone this weekend and it will call for 5 oz. in the hop stand addition.

I've got an eHERMS system, so I toss in the hop stand additions right around 190F. I built in a valve on the boil kettle with copper tubing attachment that coils around the inside of the boil kettle and I recirculate through a pump to create a whirlpool. I don't let the temp drop below 180F. I whirlpool for 30 min. So far I never have had to turn on the heating element. 190F to 180F change takes about 30 min. with 10gal. I've tried hop standing right after the boil and below the 180F mark. My perception is the sweet spot is the 190/180F area.

kchomebrew said:

I've tried hop standing right after the boil and below the 180F mark. My perception is the sweet spot is the 190/180F area.

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Interesting, I thought I'd read all the literature about hop stands and I had decided 170F was the spot for me. I guess empirical evidence is better, I should try it both ways and see.

At the National Home Brewers conference in Philly Stan Hieronomous gave a presentation and it showed that different temperatures had a different hop aroma. He showed how the different components of the taste had different intensities at different temperatures.

It seemed like 180 was the sweet spot (183 to be precise).


Remember - the testers were trained, where as you and I might not notice much (any) difference between 170 or 180 or 190.

The temperature has two important implications (as far as I've concluded)

1) Above 180, you're going to isomerize compounds and add bitterness. Not as much as higher temps, but you will.

2) Higher temperatures extract heavier molecules. Any coffee or tea aficionados experience this all the time. I hate coffee or tea made with boiling water. If you look on packages of loose leaf tea, they actually suggest using water between 180 and 195 degrees (I live in CO so this ends up being my boiling temp anyways!).

"Heavier" molecules tend to be earthy, bitter, tangy (hay flavors as well) and bitter in tea. While "lighter" molecules are more floral, fruity, and only slightly grassy. Extrapolating this to hops, I think, is possible. I've noticed that Amarillo, Citra and NS really came through in a SMaSH steep, but my Apollo and Simcoe did not. I'm not saying the Apollo and Simcoe tasted like nothing, but they were much smoother than normal. The Apollo was delicious, which is not anything I've heard someone say and the Simcoe was a remarkably smooth shadow of its normal self. I applied the simcoe steep to a heavy American strong ale and the results were the same.

Just my extra long two cents

I did this with my Coal Town DCA. Hop Stand about 45 minutes with my flameout hops (3oz of CTZ & 2oz Cascade) then dry hopped with 7oz (2 oz CTZ & 1oz each of Mosaic, Centennial, Zythos, Simcoe & Amarillo, 4oz Cacao Nibs and 2 Vanilla Beans). Started fermenting again when I dry hopped, so I'm letting it finish before putting the CO2 on it. Should be a major hop bomb with a 5.7ABV.

I read the whole thread but did not see this covered: how much bitterness is added by doing a hopstand? and how would you calculate that?

gometz said:

I read the whole thread but did not see this covered: how much bitterness is added by doing a hopstand? and how would you calculate that?

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Typically I've seen them calculated the same as boil hops but at a reduced utilization factor. I seem to remember 13% utilization suggested somewhere, but I've used 5-8% utilization on my last few hopstands.

TAK said:

Typically I've seen them calculated the same as boil hops but at a reduced utilization factor. I seem to remember 13% utilization suggested somewhere, but I've used 5-8% utilization on my last few hopstands.

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This has not been my experience. I get no additional IBUs from my zero minute/flameout hop additions. Beersmith calculates them at 0% utilization fwiw.

But I don't do 190F hopstands either as I think it's just begging for DMS issues. Some folks will claim they haven't had any, but the science says DMS is still forming at temps that high, so I don't push my luck. I cool to 150F (at least below 170F where DMS formation generally starts) and then hopstand/whirlpool for 30-45minutes. My pale ale and IPAs have both won gold medals in various competitions fwiw.

Also fwiw, this is just my personal take on things, and I'm not judging the way anyone else does things. Everyone's entitled to brew their own beers.

jbaysurfer said:

This has not been my experience. I get no additional IBUs from my zero minute/flameout hop additions. Beersmith calculates them at 0% utilization fwiw.

But I don't do 190F hopstands either as I think it's just begging for DMS issues. Some folks will claim they haven't had any, but the science says DMS is still forming at temps that high, so I don't push my luck. I cool to 150F (at least below 170F where DMS formation generally starts) and then hopstand/whirlpool for 30-45minutes. My pale ale and IPAs have both won gold medals in various competitions fwiw.

Also fwiw, this is just my personal take on things, and I'm not judging the way anyone else does things. Everyone's entitled to brew their own beers.

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Yea, everyone has their own methods, and they'll all produce different results. Personally, once my water hits 180 I toss in the hops, put on a lid and let it steep for an hour. Never had DMS issues. I will say though, I'm in a very unique situation. My water boils at 195 F and I boil quite a bit away in an hour.

Thanks for the responses. I haven't invested in beer Smith but use the brewer's friend online calculator and it isn't very straight forward on the subject.

Have a friend who is a brewer for a well know craft brewery that makes one of the top rated IPAs on the market. and he mentioned that the temp isn't that big of a deal for hop standing. He mentioned the only thing mattering is how the essential oils from the hops are utilized. He mentioned that they transfer boil kettle to whirlpool which takes 30 min (assume this is like 100bbl ) and then they let it sit for 15 min to drop out the hot break and then toss in the late additions and let those steep for 50 min. He said nobody really pays attention to the temp. He said DMS is never an issue.

kchomebrew said:

Have a friend who is a brewer for a well know craft brewery that makes one of the top rated IPAs on the market. and he mentioned that the temp isn't that big of a deal for hop standing. He mentioned the only thing mattering is how the essential oils from the hops are utilized. He mentioned that they transfer boil kettle to whirlpool which takes 30 min (assume this is like 100bbl ) and then they let it sit for 15 min to drop out the hot break and then toss in the late additions and let those steep for 50 min. He said nobody really pays attention to the temp. He said DMS is never an issue.

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I'm not calling you a lier, but I find it hard to believe that a reputable brewery with a top rated IPA doesn't have some sort of quality control in place for hop stand temps. If you check temps for everything else (mash, strike water, etc) why would you not check/maintain a temp for a hop stand, which seems to be quite crucial to the flavor of the beer? Doesn't add up.

Either way its interesting how they drop the hot break before steeping.

wyobrewer1 said:

I'm not calling you a lier, but I find it hard to believe that a reputable brewery with a top rated IPA doesn't have some sort of quality control in place for hop stand temps. If you check temps for everything else (mash, strike water, etc) why would you not check/maintain a temp for a hop stand, which seems to be quite crucial to the flavor of the beer? Doesn't add up.

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If you follow the same process with the same batch sizes, there shouldn't be too much variability in hop stand temp one would think. Same temp leaving the kettle as you monitor Kettle temp. Perhaps they once monitored and now they know it runs about the same for this particular beer and batch size, and this, no need to pay close attention... Other than ambient temp swings (and if this brewery is in San Diego we know there is hardly much of a swing all year) - not much else would cause variability.

Though certain hop oils tend to evaporate at certain temperatures. But it is unlikely to be noticed in most beers.

droder1 said:

If you follow the same process with the same batch sizes, there shouldn't be too much variability in hop stand temp one would think. Same temp leaving the kettle as you monitor Kettle temp. Perhaps they once monitored and now they know it runs about the same for this particular beer and batch size, and this, no need to pay close attention... Other than ambient temp swings (and if this brewery is in San Diego we know there is hardly much of a swing all year) - not much else would cause variability.

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Aside from the huge lies I've told , I would also comment that I left out detail and my point was not about specific temps. Rather, once you get the process that works, just follow that. The brewery is in San Diego and the main point is that the hop stand technique they use seems to take over an hour and DMS doesn't play a factor. I've long questioned DMS comments about hop standing. Now that said, I wouldnt be in favor of a 3 hr hop stand.... Ha ha. But I might try a 60m hop stand on my IPA and see what happens. Hope that makes sense for everyone.

kchomebrew said:

Aside from the huge lies I've told , I would also comment that I left out detail and my point was not about specific temps. Rather, once you get the process that works, just follow that. The brewery is in San Diego and the main point is that the hop stand technique they use seems to take over an hour and DMS doesn't play a factor. I've long questioned DMS comments about hop standing. Now that said, I wouldnt be in favor of a 3 hr hop stand.... Ha ha. But I might try a 60m hop stand on my IPA and see what happens. Hope that makes sense for everyone.

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Oh and one last thing. I've read DMS increases at 30% per hr in wort that sits post boil. So I bet they do a long 120m boil and there isn't much DMS left that will convert ...now that I think of it.

kchomebrew said:

Aside from the huge lies I've told , I would also comment that I left out detail and my point was not about specific temps. Rather, once you get the process that works, just follow that. The brewery is in San Diego and the main point is that the hop stand technique they use seems to take over an hour and DMS doesn't play a factor. I've long questioned DMS comments about hop standing. Now that said, I wouldnt be in favor of a 3 hr hop stand.... Ha ha. But I might try a 60m hop stand on my IPA and see what happens. Hope that makes sense for everyone.

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I do 60 min hop stands and I only boil for an hour at 196 F due to my elevation. DMS isn't an issue anymore due to quality control of malts. Unless it's a pilsner malt, but that's a different breed.

kchomebrew said:

and he mentioned that the temp isn't that big of a deal for hop standing.

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kchomebrew said:

I left out detail and my point was not about specific temps. Rather, once you get the process that works, just follow that.

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Can't have it both ways. If the temperature isn't a big deal than not having a process that always ends up at the same temperature shouldn't be a big deal. But I admire your backpedal.

JustLooking said:

Can't have it both ways. If the temperature isn't a big deal than not having a process that always ends up at the same temperature shouldn't be a big deal. But I admire your backpedal.

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It's all ball bearings these days anyway.

Awesome ^

I still worry about DMS though..maybe it's because I'm especially sensitive to it and I've had DMS in an ale (once or twice)...also, most homebrewers aren't doing 120 minute boils.

Nonetheless. Getting to 180 slows DMS formation considerably and getting to 170 pretty much brings it to a stop. I suspect your commercial brewer friend isn't worrying about hopstand temps because of the 120 minute boil (like you mentioned) and because his hopstand is actually happening at 180 or below due to the process.

FWIW your rationale for not worrying about DMS is the same rationale no-chill brewers use for not chilling at all.

Isn't this the same concept as a Hopback?
Only using your brew kettle as the vessel?

Hot wort (I know 180 degrees) and hops in a closed vessel.

Just saying, not looking for flames.

*

jbaysurfer said:

Awesome ^ I still worry about DMS though..maybe it's because I'm especially sensitive to it and I've had DMS in an ale (once or twice)...also, most homebrewers aren't doing 120 minute boils. Nonetheless. Getting to 180 slows DMS formation considerably and getting to 170 pretty much brings it to a stop. I suspect your commercial brewer friend isn't worrying about hopstand temps because of the 120 minute boil (like you mentioned) and because his hopstand is actually happening at 180 or below due to the process. FWIW your rationale for not worrying about DMS is the same rationale no-chill brewers use for not chilling at all.

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I was just flipping through some article about Stone IPA in BYO about their late hop additions. Interestingly enough they commented on the same whirlpool, rest, knockout process that I was commenting about. Yet, oddly enough, it references 200f temps.
http://byo.com/cider/item/1721-brewing-in-the-stone-age

I'm going to try a 60m hop stand this weekend with the IPA I'm making. Doing a 90m boil for what it's worth. And also ,just to get the peanut gallery riled up, I might not pay attention to the temp. I'll just turn the whirlpool on post boil and chuck in the hops for a 60m spin.

kchomebrew said:

And also ,just to get the peanut gallery riled up, I might not pay attention to the temp. I'll just turn the whirlpool on post boil and chuck in the hops for a 60m spin.

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My nuts are always ready to get riled up. Give it a whirl..............

kchomebrew said:

I'm going to try a 60m hop stand this weekend with the IPA I'm making. Doing a 90m boil for what it's worth. And also ,just to get the peanut gallery riled up, I might not pay attention to the temp. I'll just turn the whirlpool on post boil and chuck in the hops for a 60m spin.

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That's what I do. I don't bother with the temps when I do my hop stand. I toss in my flameout additions, turn off the heat and stir really good and let it sit for 20-30 minutes. After that time is up, I throw in another large hop addition, stir really good and let it sit for another 20-30 minutes. I've never had anything I've perceived as DMS in my IPAs.
Let us know how your process turns out.

FWIW, I cool mine just slightly, add hops, cover with aluminum foil, stirring occasionally for 30-45 minutes, then finish cooling.

I feel that if it's still steaming, volatile oils are leaving rather than staying in the kettle. If it smells good, that's all nice and fun, but everything that hits your nose is something that didn't stay in the wort.

I found that with my immersion chiller, literally just a minute or so will get me from boil down to 170 +/-. Aluminum foil keeps it covered really well, and the temp usually only drops 10 points +/- over the hopstand. From what I've heard, cold break forms around 140. So, I just try to stay above that for the stand and then cool quickly after. I haven't had any issues with DMS myself, but I use pilsner in the grist for my IPAs, so I boil for 90.

kchomebrew said:

I was just flipping through some article about Stone IPA in BYO about their late hop additions. Interestingly enough they commented on the same whirlpool, rest, knockout process that I was commenting about. Yet, oddly enough, it references 200f temps.
http://byo.com/cider/item/1721-brewing-in-the-stone-age

I'm going to try a 60m hop stand this weekend with the IPA I'm making. Doing a 90m boil for what it's worth. And also ,just to get the peanut gallery riled up, I might not pay attention to the temp. I'll just turn the whirlpool on post boil and chuck in the hops for a 60m spin.

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Careful now, I think the peanut gallery has a fistful of ball bearings waiting for you

Seriously though, thanks for the reference. I'm not a physicist, so I wonder if the wort cools during that 90m hopstand, but given the Stone reputation on hoppy beers and how to make them, I concede my DMS fears at the homebrew level are likely overblown, or completely unfounded. This thread has been a great example of the value of HBT for me. When you go into discussions/debates with intelligent people and stay open minded, you might just find a better/different way of doing things.

Edit: Ironically, I got some scoresheets back from a pro-am (Figueroa Mountain-which I won BTW so I'll have a belgian dark on tap at their brew pub!) and I had a DMS mention on one of my beers. That was only one of 3 judges though, and nobody else mentioned it, so I'm not going to read into it too much.

kchomebrew said:

I was just flipping through some article about Stone IPA in BYO about their late hop additions. Interestingly enough they commented on the same whirlpool, rest, knockout process that I was commenting about. Yet, oddly enough, it references 200f temps.
http://byo.com/cider/item/1721-brewing-in-the-stone-age

I'm going to try a 60m hop stand this weekend with the IPA I'm making. Doing a 90m boil for what it's worth. And also ,just to get the peanut gallery riled up, I might not pay attention to the temp. I'll just turn the whirlpool on post boil and chuck in the hops for a 60m spin.

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It makes a big difference whether you're whirlpooling 120bbl for an hour or only 10 gallons. I doubt they drop even 10 degrees during that time.

42000 lb of water can hold a LOT of heat, plus the minimal surface area and they likely use insulated kettles. They probably don't even drop more than 1-2 degrees.

I have read this whole thread, interesting stuff. Definitely going to try. My question is, while doing a hop stand, should I put pellet hops is a bag or just let it loose and collect it with a whirlpool? Or it doesn't matter either way?

pharaohpierre said:

I have read this whole thread, interesting stuff. Definitely going to try. My question is, while doing a hop stand, should I put pellet hops is a bag or just let it loose and collect it with a whirlpool? Or it doesn't matter either way?

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Seems to be purely personal preference. Before I had a strainer when pouring wort from the kettle to fermentor I would use a bag. Now that I have a strainer I just throw them all in.

yeah, I like the sound of throwing them all in and letting them move around freely. thanks for the reply

Just brewed a hopstand IPA on Saturday. 45 minute boil with a 40 ibu bittering addition and everything else post flameout.

4 oz of hops right after cutting the flame (mix of nelson, galaxy, amarillo, and simcoe), let sit for about 20 minutes with occasional stirring. No cover.

After 20 min the chiller was turned on and the wort was cooled to 165. Cut chiller, add another dose of hops, same amount and blend above. Let sit for another 20 min, covered, with more frequent stirring. Wort dropped to 145 during this time.

Finished chilling, dropped to pitch temp and threw some s-05 in. OG of 1.068. Fermenting away happily now. Will hit with 3 oz of dryhops after 14 days then rack to keg.

I will update how it turns out, this is my first time trying a beer with no aroma or flavor additions during the boil, and with a sub-60min boil.

That sounds tasty. Did you calculate what ibu you'll get from the knockout addition? I've done plenty of hop stands but never a bittering and knockout addition like that.

tgmartin000 said:

That sounds tasty. Did you calculate what ibu you'll get from the knockout addition? I've done plenty of hop stands but never a bittering and knockout addition like that.

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I didn't, but I should. I'm guessing about 30 ibus at the most for about 60-70 all day. I'll go back and do the math and see what it is.

I'm sorry if I missed this but I'm tired and trying to throw a brew together for tomorrow.

How do you guys account for bitterness with hopstands in Beersmith? It seems to make the calculating kind of tricky.

ahurd110 said:

Just brewed a hopstand IPA on Saturday. 45 minute boil with a 40 ibu bittering addition and everything else post flameout.

4 oz of hops right after cutting the flame (mix of nelson, galaxy, amarillo, and simcoe), let sit for about 20 minutes with occasional stirring. No cover.

After 20 min the chiller was turned on and the wort was cooled to 165. Cut chiller, add another dose of hops, same amount and blend above. Let sit for another 20 min, covered, with more frequent stirring. Wort dropped to 145 during this time.

Finished chilling, dropped to pitch temp and threw some s-05 in. OG of 1.068. Fermenting away happily now. Will hit with 3 oz of dryhops after 14 days then rack to keg.

I will update how it turns out, this is my first time trying a beer with no aroma or flavor additions during the boil, and with a sub-60min boil.

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This is going to be awesome. Well played.

jsguitar said:

I'm sorry if I missed this but I'm tired and trying to throw a brew together for tomorrow.

How do you guys account for bitterness with hopstands in Beersmith? It seems to make the calculating kind of tricky.

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I generally do a 15-20min whirlpool/hopstand for IPA's and other hop-centric beers and I add 3min to every addition (60=63, Flameout=3) in Beersmith (Tinseth). I came up with this by starting with info from a few different threads on this site, and then combining that with continued brewing on my system. It makes beer that I like drinking. I say this because, to me at least, it seems like there's no wrong way to account for it in Beersmith - you just need to be consistent/pay attention/take good records so you know what values in Beersmith translate to the flavors you enjoy.

Just my two cents.

NathPowe said:

I generally do a 15-20min whirlpool/hopstand for IPA's and other hop-centric beers and I add 3min to every addition (60=63, Flameout=3) in Beersmith (Tinseth). I came up with this by starting with info from a few different threads on this site, and then combining that with continued brewing on my system. It makes beer that I like drinking. I say this because, to me at least, it seems like there's no wrong way to account for it in Beersmith - you just need to be consistent/pay attention/take good records so you know what values in Beersmith translate to the flavors you enjoy.

Just my two cents.

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Awesome reply, thanks!

I had just plugged in 5 minutes, so I was thinking in the right direction.

I think I'll do something similar to the poster you quoted above. Just wanted make sure I didn't undershoot my bitterness by too much.