Single tier brewstand questions

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akthor

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OK I have been reading around and I have decided I want to work towards building a single tier brewstand. I am going to make the stand using the "weldless" design. I will use 3 sanke kegs as the brewpot, mash tun, and water tank. Propane burners and one or two pumps whatever is needed for the simplest system. I know the automated one with all the electric temperature controllers are beyond me.

What I need to know is like a detailed description and diagram of how the plumbing should go, the wiring etc. And a list of what other parts I need besides the stand, kegs, burners. I am going to start acquiring the parts after xmas so I want to work on getting my parts lists together.

I could actually ask for some of the stuff needed for xmas from the gf and family.

I have tried searching but there is so much info and so many ways of doing it it's very confusing and daunting to figure it out.

What I want is the simplest sytem that will use pump (s) to move everything from one vessel to the next and through a chill plate and into the fermenter.

Thanks guys for any help.
 
I have a very simple single tier (at this point) using one pump, two keggles and a 10gallon drink cooler MLT...One pump is totally do-able if you batch sparge. It has been a good way for me to get the feel of my single tier without dropping too much cash initially. Eventually I'll go with three keggles, but for now I'm making some great beer and no longer lifting and pouring near boiling liquid.
 
Can you show me pictures or diagrams or a link to the thread of you building it if you have one?

I have a very simple single tier (at this point) using one pump, two keggles and a 10gallon drink cooler MLT...One pump is totally do-able if you batch sparge. It has been a good way for me to get the feel of my single tier without dropping too much cash initially. Eventually I'll go with three keggles, but for now I'm making some great beer and no longer lifting and pouring near boiling liquid.
 
So parts: I have come up with a partial list:

Brew stand itself parts
3 sanke kegs

Now on a single tier on keg is to boil the water for the mash tun right? One is the mash tun and one is the brewpot right?

So to for the kegs I need 3 thermometers, 3 ball valves and how many sight glasses do I need, one for each or just one for the Mash tun and the brew pot?

for the mash tun I need a false bottom or the stainless braid, which is better?

For the brew pot I need a dip tube right? Which kind?

Also what is better weldless or welded fittings?

Anything else I need for the kegs?

Then I need three burners.

How many pumps do I need one or two? which is better?

Then it's the plumbing for the gas and the wiring for the pumps and the plumbing for the kegs. Did I miss anything?
 
So parts: I have come up with a partial list:

Brew stand itself parts
3 sanke kegs

Now on a single tier on keg is to boil the water for the mash tun right? One is the mash tun and one is the brewpot right?
correct.

So to for the kegs I need 3 thermometers, 3 ball valves and how many sight glasses do I need, one for each or just one for the Mash tun and the brew pot?
You'll want a sight glass on the HLT above all

for the mash tun I need a false bottom or the stainless braid, which is better?
This is debatable. I prefer a full size false bottom such as this one:
http://climaxhomebrew.com/index.php...roducts_id=2&zenid=1cr7dj9gmng7s340vfid5bn6h5


For the brew pot I need a dip tube right? Which kind?
All three vessels should have dip tubes, unless you want to deal with the dead space.

Also what is better weldless or welded fittings?
Again, debatable. I use a combination. Welded, where I make and break connections, and weldless for everything else.

Anything else I need for the kegs?

Then I need three burners.

How many pumps do I need one or two? which is better?
Start with one, you can batch sparge just fine, and can always upgrade. Just my 0.02.

Then it's the plumbing for the gas and the wiring for the pumps and the plumbing for the kegs. Did I miss anything?
You're gonna have to research these ones on your own. There is a ton of info here to steer you in the right direction.

Hope this helps! :mug:
 
Very helpful stuff guys!

HLT = hot liquor tank I think is that another name for the mash tun?

"All three vessels should have dip tubes, unless you want to deal with the dead space."

Can you explain this??? I guess I am unsure what dip tube does???

"Again, debatable. I use a combination. Welded, where I make and break connections, and weldless for everything else."

Which ones do you feel should be welded? I will have to check my area and see if I have someone who can weld and how much it costs.

"Start with one, you can batch sparge just fine, and can always upgrade. Just my 0.02."

Can you explain how the one pump would work with batch sparging and moving the liquid from each tank?

This guy is selling brew stands for $275 I could get this "electric stand" delivered and modify it for my needs since I have no way of welding up one of these up myself and I think the cost wouldn't be much greater than all the parts for the no weld stand. Good idea?




http://brewersequipment.com/electric_brew_stand_special.html
 
Very helpful stuff guys!

HLT = hot liquor tank I think is that another name for the mash tun?

No. The HLT is the 3rd keg for heating strike / sparge water. :)

"All three vessels should have dip tubes, unless you want to deal with the dead space."

Can you explain this??? I guess I am unsure what dip tube does???
A dip tube connects to the ball valve. It allows the kettle to grain fully.
See: http://www.bargainfittings.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=44_35_46&product_id=94


"Again, debatable. I use a combination. Welded, where I make and break connections, and weldless for everything else."

Which ones do you feel should be welded? I will have to check my area and see if I have someone who can weld and how much it costs.
I have my ball valves and recirculation ports welded. Many folks use all weldless with good results. Expect to pay $20 - $50 per weld for good TIG work.

"Start with one, you can batch sparge just fine, and can always upgrade. Just my 0.02."

Can you explain how the one pump would work with batch sparging and moving the liquid from each tank?
It does just that... move the wort from tank to tank. With fly sparging, you'd have one pump moving fluid from the HLT to Mash Tun, and one moving the wort from the Mash Tun to the Boil Kettle. There is no need to run more than one pump with batch sparging.

This guy is selling brew stands for $275 I could get this "electric stand" delivered and modify it for my needs since I have no way of welding up one of these up myself and I think the cost wouldn't be much greater than all the parts for the no weld stand. Good idea?
Interesting approach, but I bet if you tally up the final cost it'll be the same or more than just buying one of the gas stands. Pinup offers them for around $500 to your door.




http://brewersequipment.com/electric_brew_stand_special.html

10 chars.
 
Its called a hot liquor tank but its just got water in it right?

So you use one pump and just disconnect and reconnect the in and out hoses to the different tanks to direct it? I assume this is why folks use quick disconnects. Can you recommend which ones and where to get them?

$20 - $50 per weld? Holy crap guess I will be going weldless unless I can find someone cheap.

I know a guy in VT he's a good friend he's a steel worker by trade and that's all he does is weld. I think I remember him saying he had various welders in his home shop. I wonder if it might be worth it to buy all my parts and make the 6hr drive to his house. He would weld everything I needed for beer.
 
Its called a hot liquor tank but its just got water in it right?
Yep!

So you use one pump and just disconnect and reconnect the in and out hoses to the different tanks to direct it? I assume this is why folks use quick disconnects. Can you recommend which ones and where to get them?
Right again. I use camlocks from barginfittings.com

$20 - $50 per weld? Holy crap guess I will be going weldless unless I can find someone cheap.

I know a guy in VT he's a good friend he's a steel worker by trade and that's all he does is weld. I think I remember him saying he had various welders in his home shop. I wonder if it might be worth it to buy all my parts and make the 6hr drive to his house. He would weld everything I needed for beer.
Make damn sure he knows how to TIG stainless. I learned the hard way that cheap / free isn't always the best option. ( I ruined 3 kegs before paying a professional. )

10 char.
 
Could you give me the cam lock parts #s? I am trying to figure ot what is which and can't seem to???

At least you are thinking about using the camlocks. Don't do what I did and build a bunch of hard-lines.

See this "before" image. The copper looks pretty and that's about it. It's a PITA to clean and the system was prone to trapping air making pump priming difficult and stuck sparges too common.
3dog_pico-brewery_P3_3-2.png


I'm not saying it can't be done, it's just much simpler to use silicone tubing and quick disconnects.
This is what I did recently, all through the aforementioned BargainFittings.com

revised_brewery.jpg
 
A second to 3 Dog Brew's comment.

Hard piping "looks" cool but is a true PITA to work with. Stuff happens and having no way to bypass a problem is not the way to go.

I am rather biased about this subject. My rig uses all disconnects and a diverter panel to allow me to move liquid any where I want it to go.

NewToys1.JPG


I have two pumps and a CFC wort chiller. I mash in a Gott cooler and use two keggles for a HLT and brew kettle. I have a whirlpool system in my kettle. Quite a few of the parts were purchased from Bargainfittings.com. Wayne is great to work with. Check the links in my sig for more information on my single tier build and other toys I use.
 
Thank you so much for the help guys I can now make a couple lists and start acquiring parts. Gonna take me a while but maybe I can be ready come spring ;) I just want to be sure that I have it right as far as fitting and stuff I need to make the 3 sankeys into HLT, MLT, and brewpot (keggle?)

2 thermometers (HLT & MLT) I figure I am just boiling in the brewpot so I don't need to know the temp in it. (I am unsure of what is needed to attach thermometers???

3 bulkhead fittings and ball valves (one for each keg)

2 sight glasses (HLT & MLT) I figure its not as necessary with the brew pot?

3 dip tubes ( one for each keg) I am unsure which style I should use for each???

Either false bottom or ss hose mesh for MLT

2 lengths of silicon hose

5 male quick disconnects (1 for each ball lock and 1 for in and 1 for out on pump)

4 female quick disconnects (for the end of each hose)

Am I missing anything? Or have something wrong?
 
OK just to make sure I have my head properly wrapped around this I made up some rough diagrams to make sure I have things right. They also should how I hook up the hoses to the pump and the different kegs.

One thing I am unclear of is on batch sparging do I just pump the heated water from the HLT to the MLT and then after the proper amount of time I pump the contents of the MLT to the brewpot? Or am I supposed to recirculate out of the MLT back into the MLT from the top a few times before I transfer to the brewpot????

rig12.jpg


rig21.jpg


rig31.jpg


rig41.jpg
 
Just my thoughts on this, but there is no need for a sight glass on the MLT. There is a great need for one on the brew kettle.

Unless you have some form of outside heat and temperature control, you really do not want to mash in a stainless steel keg. Stainless is a great conductor of heat, but a very poor insulator. You should think about using a 10 gallon Gott cooler with a false bottom. The Gott will hold temps with less than one degree loss over 90 minutes. The keg will lose 9-10 degrees over the same time.

You should recirculate the liquid from the bottom of the mash tune to the top, slowly, for about 10 minutes before transferring over to the kettle. At least that is what I do. I fly sparge, so I have two pumps. One to move hot water to the top of my mash tun and one the move the liquor from the bottom of the mash tun to the kettle.

I have tow burners. One just for heating hot water and one for boiling the kettle.

You will need a device to cool the wort from boiling to fermenting temps. I use a Counter Flow Chiller. There are posts on this site that show you how to make one.

Good luck.
 
Hmmm that makes sense for me replacing the keg with a cooler would be cheaper, only two burners etc. But I want to do 10 gallon batches do I need a 15 gallon cooler?

So to be able to use one pump, after I transfer the heated water from the HLT to the MLT I then connect the hose as shown below to recirculate the water thru the MLT. Right or wrong? So add another bulkhead and another male disconnect for the top of the cooler I assume no ball valve need for that?

I will have a plate chiller mounted to the stand and this will be an outdoor rig so I will just plug my garden hose into it.

Rig5.jpg
 
Brewstand_to_Kettle.JPG


Here is an early picture of the rig, before I changed the disconnects to Snap-Lock. All of the connection on the kettles and mash tun have valves. Each vessel has two stainless steel ball valves. On the upper right of the mash tun I have a disconnect and a ball valve to vary the flow into the mash tun. The kettle has a inlet for whirlpooling.

whirlpool_and_outlet.JPG


You can see the mash tun inlet a bit better in this shot

Brewframe_deck.JPG


I do 10 gallon batches in this system all the time. You do have to limit the amount of grain. I think I can get a max of 26 lbs in there. You can't do 10 gallons of a DIPA but you can get 10 gallons of a 1.063 gravity beer. For bigger beers, I just make them at 5 gallons at a time.
 
So is my description and diagram right? As a simpler cheaper version? So you use a ball lock and the top of the MLT cooler to restrict the flow and vary it's speed?

You have two ball locks on your brew kettle to be able to whirlpool? Can you explain that a little more?
 
Two things I would add:
I WISH I had put a thermometer on my brew kettle. Why? First, when it's getting close the the boil, you want to know "how close". Second, if you do what I did, and copied Wayne's whirlpool setup (out of the kettle, through a chiller of some sort and back into the kettle at a tangent to "stir" the wort), you'll want to know if it's cool enough.

So the second thing is the whirlpool inlet to the kettle from your planned plate chiller, which is how mine is setup.

Quick sidebar: listening to the "Jamil Show" has taught me that the danger zone for forming DMS is above 140F. The faster you get your wort from boiling to below 140F, the better. Hence the whirlpool chiller. This technique also works if you whirlpool the wort around an immersion chiller, BTW. DMS is mainly a problem for Pilsner style and styles that use a lot of Pilsner Malt. But, it works so well I won't go back.
 
OK so whirlpooling is basically automatically stirring the wort for you. So transfer from MLT to brew kettle then swap hoses so that wort comes out of the kettle into the chiller and back into the kettle. Have thermometer on kettle so you can watch the temp when it's low enough swap hose so it goes into the fermenter.

Have I got everything right? I understand it's more "hose swapping" but I can do it with one pump right?
 
Sounds like your planning to build a system similar to mine.

3 kegs
2 pumps
2 turkey burners
3 110v toggle switches
2 gas valves
some gas pipe and the components to mate it up to the burners and valves
1 propane regulator split to run the 2 burners
copper pipe for the risers from the pumps
high temp silicone tubeing
weldless fittings
3 ball valves
electrical project box
hard metal encased wiring

Heres a few pics. if you have questions feel free to PM me
IMGP2556.jpg


IMGP2563.jpg


IMGP2566.jpg


IMGP2574.jpg
 
Similiar cept a cooler for MLT and just one pump. And as uncomplicated wiring as I can make it, like an on/off light switch for the pump ;)

I am used to brewing in the kitchen with one pot so having a pump to move the water/wort from place to place is more than enough automation for me I don't mind swapping hoses around if I can save some money.
 
OK so whirlpooling is basically automatically stirring the wort for you. So transfer from MLT to brew kettle then swap hoses so that wort comes out of the kettle into the chiller and back into the kettle. Have thermometer on kettle so you can watch the temp when it's low enough swap hose so it goes into the fermenter.

Have I got everything right? I understand it's more "hose swapping" but I can do it with one pump right?

I think you've got it.
 
Ok this may be a stoopid question but I couldn't figure out a "why not?" Why couldn't I use my Brew pot as the HLT?

Heat the water in the brew pot like you would a HLT, transfer it to the MLT then transfer back to the brew pot? Seems I save myself the cost of 1/3 the brew stand eliminate a burner and another keg.

Right? Wrong?
 
You need a place to hold the hot water during mashing and sparging.

You do not need a heated hot liquor tank, but it does make it a bit easier.

You could use another insulated cooler to hold your sparge water after it was heated up in your kettle. I had done the exact same thing in an earlier brew system. My first pro brewing job didn't have a HLT. We heated all the water up in the kettle and then transferred to the insulated fermenter to hold the sparge water.

Sometimes, if you trying to end up with 10 gallons in the keg or bottles, you will need to sparge with more than 10 gallons.

You have losses with grain absorbing water and losses with evaporation and losses with trub and losses with transfers.

For my system, I need to start with 15 gallons in my kettle. For my last batch, I mashed in with 6.12 gallons of water with 19.75 lbs of grain. I sparged with 12 gallons of hot water to achieve 15 gallons in the kettle. I evaporated close to 3 gallons for a 90 minute boil at 5280 feet altitude.

With trub loss in the kettle, that let me put 11 gallons in two fermenters.
I anticipate another gallon loss from the two fermenters in racking, dry hopping and packaging.
 
So how do you fit nearly 7 gallons for mashing in and then 12 gallons to sparge? Doesn't a cooler MLT only hold 10 gallons and a keg one 15? that's 19 gallons of liquid plus the grain??? I guess I am missing something?

Are you draining off the original mash in gallons from MLT into the brew pot before adding the 12 gallons to the MLT for sparging?
 
So how do you fit nearly 7 gallons for mashing in and then 12 gallons to sparge? Doesn't a cooler MLT only hold 10 gallons and a keg one 15? that's 19 gallons of liquid plus the grain??? I guess I am missing something?

Are you draining off the original mash in gallons from MLT into the brew pot before adding the 12 gallons to the MLT for sparging?

I use a technique call fly sparging. Simply, that means as I am draining off and pumping the liquid from the mash tun I am also pumping the additional water onto the top of the grain bed in the mash tun "on the fly". I try to maintain 2" of water above the grain bed throughout the sparge. I also try to take 45 minutes to run all the liquid through the grain. This is an old school technique, but it is what I have always used. A lot of brewers today use batch sparging which does not require a second pump, but could have a slightly lower efficiency.
 
I will probably batch sparge too so I don't have to have two pumps.

If you are dead set on only having one pump, I would either elevate the HLT so it can gravity feed to the MLT or lower the BK so the MLT can gravity feed to it (look at the Sabco units for an example).

I know saving the coin by only having one pump is one of your goals, but it will be a real pain to do all your liquid movement with only one pump if everything is on the same level. You will gain more flexibility by going to a 2 level system or adding a second pump.
 
If you are dead set on only having one pump, I would either elevate the HLT so it can gravity feed to the MLT or lower the BK so the MLT can gravity feed to it (look at the Sabco units for an example).

I know saving the coin by only having one pump is one of your goals, but it will be a real pain to do all your liquid movement with only one pump if everything is on the same level. You will gain more flexibility by going to a 2 level system or adding a second pump.

What exactly is a pain with one pump? I batch sparge with 3 burners on the floor without issues.
148776_465325252846_656377846_5428314_4441953_n.jpg

76839_465326262846_656377846_5428361_8088275_n.jpg
 
What exactly is a pain with one pump? I batch sparge with 3 burners on the floor without issues.
I guess saying it is a pain is just my perspective on it. I prefer fly sparging which cannot be done with one pump.

For batch sparging, I think it is a pain because you need to first have the pump connected to the MLT (out) to MLT (in) to vorlauf, then move it to MLT>BK to collect your first runnings, then switch it to HLT>MLT to fill the MLT with the second sparge volume, then again MLT>MLT to vorlauf, then again MLT>BK for second runnings and repeat HLT>MLT, MLT>MLT and MLT>BK if you do a 3rd sparge. When that is done, you need to swap it to connect BK>Chiller>BK to sanitize the pump and chiller during the boil so you don't contaminate your finished wort with your earlier runnings, then finally move it to BK>Chiller>fermenter to collect your finished wort.

You might not think that process is a pain, but I surely do. Just my opinion.
 
I guess saying it is a pain is just my perspective on it. I prefer fly sparging which cannot be done with one pump.

For batch sparging, I think it is a pain because you need to first have the pump connected to the MLT (out) to MLT (in) to vorlauf, then move it to MLT>BK to collect your first runnings, then switch it to HLT>MLT to fill the MLT with the second sparge volume, then again MLT>MLT to vorlauf, then again MLT>BK for second runnings and repeat HLT>MLT, MLT>MLT and MLT>BK if you do a 3rd sparge. When that is done, you need to swap it to connect BK>Chiller>BK to sanitize the pump and chiller during the boil so you don't contaminate your finished wort with your earlier runnings, then finally move it to BK>Chiller>fermenter to collect your finished wort.

You might not think that process is a pain, but I surely do. Just my opinion.

Fair enough. With camlocks, this isn't an issue for me in the slightest. That is what makes this hobby so great though. So many options! :mug:
 
Yeah I think with quick disconnects for me it won't be a problem but who knows maybe I will be able to afford a second pump? It's gonna take me months to accumulate the parts so plans could change ;)
 
I've never felt like moving the QD's around during a batch sparge was a huge hassle. You just close the pump output valve, move disconnects, open the valve. However, I can appreciate the opinion that at least one gravity flow is less trouble. Yes, it is also more flexible because you can dabble in fly sparging without adding the second pump.
 
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