Fantome Yeast Cultured from Bottle Still Got the Funk?

So I've got some yeast that I pulled out of a bottle of Fantome going strong on my stir plate right now. It took a couple of days to show any activity but it's looking great now. I'll be stepping this up in a day or two and brewing with it in about a week.

My question for those of you who've done this is: Do you get much of the brett funk and sourness that I love in the Fantome out of a culture from the bottle?
I've heard that culturing from Jolly Pumpkin dregs you end up with a culture that's out of balace (I think the sacc grow faster than the brett) and using only the culture you won't really approximate the JP funk.

I'm assuming the same is probably true for the Fantome. I do have a lacto culture going as well and I could pick up some brett c. I was thinking of mashing, quick boil and pitching the lacto for approx 2 days or until desired sourness is reached (quick sour method I've used for berliner weisse). Then I'd do my normal boil (killing the lacto) and pitch the Fantome culture and brett c.

I'd really prefer to keep it simple, though, and if I can get the funk and sour from just the Fantome culture that would be great. So, what do you guys who have experince with this think?

The saison I brewed with Fantome dregs was more sour than the hiver I pulled the dregs from, and still had a lot of good brett character. That is my only experience with the strain.

I saved some dregs from a Fantome chokolat this year that now has a crazy white fan growth going on in the jar right now. Not sure what that is so I probably won't use those dregs. The jar was autoclaved DI water so I don't think it is from an infection I introduced, just never seen anything like it and don't want to toss it in a beer without knowing.

Actually, after some more reading I've found that your results seem to be pretty typical, that the lacto strain in the fantome is particularly aggressive and most beers brewed with dregs end up much more sour than the original (some say more like a bona fide sour than a funky saison).

So, now I'm thinking I'll pitch my starter from the dregs along with some 3711 that I've already got. I figure the 3711 will tear through most of the fermentables in short order, leaving just enough for the lacto and Brett to become sufficiently noticable over time(hopefully).

Interesting, I was wondering the same thing about Fantome recently. Anyone have experience with using an Orval culture as the primary strain? I know they add brett toward the end of the process, and I was thinking of making a saison or something similar with an Orval culture soon.

WilliamWS said:

So I've got some yeast that I pulled out of a bottle of Fantome going strong on my stir plate right now. It took a couple of days to show any activity but it's looking great now. I'll be stepping this up in a day or two and brewing with it in about a week.

My question for those of you who've done this is: Do you get much of the brett funk and sourness that I love in the Fantome out of a culture from the bottle?
I've heard that culturing from Jolly Pumpkin dregs you end up with a culture that's out of balace (I think the sacc grow faster than the brett) and using only the culture you won't really approximate the JP funk.

I'm assuming the same is probably true for the Fantome. I do have a lacto culture going as well and I could pick up some brett c. I was thinking of mashing, quick boil and pitching the lacto for approx 2 days or until desired sourness is reached (quick sour method I've used for berliner weisse). Then I'd do my normal boil (killing the lacto) and pitch the Fantome culture and brett c.

I'd really prefer to keep it simple, though, and if I can get the funk and sour from just the Fantome culture that would be great. So, what do you guys who have experince with this think?

Click to expand...

Resurrection... How did this beer end up? I'd love to hear tasting notes, grain bill/recipe, and pre/post gravities.

Great!
Took first in a comp last summer and have had multiple requests for the recipe from pretty accomplished homebrewers.

I did end up pitching 3711 along with the starter from dregs. I left it in the fermenter for 8 weeks then bottled ( gravity seemed stable). It definitely evolved in the bottle. I liked the balance best at around 4-6 months in the bottle-nice tartness, light but really nice funk. By the time it got to a year in the bottle the sourness was much more prominent but it was still a nice beer.

WilliamWS said:

Great!
Took first in a comp last summer and have had multiple requests for the recipe from pretty accomplished homebrewers.

I did end up pitching 3711 along with the starter from dregs. I left it in the fermenter for 8 weeks then bottled ( gravity seemed stable). It definitely evolved in the bottle. I liked the balance best at around 4-6 months in the bottle-nice tartness, light but really nice funk. By the time it got to a year in the bottle the sourness was much more prominent but it was still a nice beer.

Click to expand...

Got any bottles left that you'd like to trade?

Unfortunately I'm down to my last bottle of that one.

Could you share the recipe you used for this? Thank you!!

WilliamWS said:

Great!
Took first in a comp last summer and have had multiple requests for the recipe from pretty accomplished homebrewers.

I did end up pitching 3711 along with the starter from dregs. I left it in the fermenter for 8 weeks then bottled ( gravity seemed stable). It definitely evolved in the bottle. I liked the balance best at around 4-6 months in the bottle-nice tartness, light but really nice funk. By the time it got to a year in the bottle the sourness was much more prominent but it was still a nice beer.

Click to expand...

Sorry it took a while to respond-I've been pretty busy the past couple of days. Here it is. Be sure to read the notes at the bottom. I do think that one thing that'll make this one hard to replicate is that all of the Fantomes that I've tasted lately have been smoky. I know he changes his recipes from batch to batch so maybe he's been using Rauchmalt or something but if the smokiness is from phenols being produced by the bugs then dregs from a 2012 or 2013 Fantome release might not work. Jolly pumpkin dregs would probably be a good bet but I would skip the first step (listed below) in the starter with those-they have a reputation for being very aggressive.

Recipe: Saison Trois Fleurs
Brewer: William Snyder
Asst Brewer:
Style: Saison
TYPE: All Grain
Taste:

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Boil Size: 7.80 gal
Estimated OG: 1.065 SG
Estimated Color: 4.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 26.6 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 87.00 %
Boil Time: 100 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or
IBU
6.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 50.00 %
2.00 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 16.67 %
2.00 lb Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 16.67 %
1.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 8.33 %
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [4.70 %] (100 min) FWHops 16.4
IBU
1.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [4.70 %] (15 min) Hops 10.3
IBU
0.10 oz peppercorns (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
0.50 oz hibiscus flowers (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1.00 oz pink rose buds (Boil 1.0 min) Misc
1.00 lb Raw Wildflower Honey (1.0 SRM) Sugar 8.33 %
1 Pkgs French Saison (Wyeast #3711) Yeast-Ale
1/2 tsp yeast nutrient (10 min)
1 whirlfoc tablet (15min)

Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 11.00 lb
----------------------------
My Mash
Step Time Name Description Step
Temp
20 min Step Add 8.25 qt of water at 123.0 F 113.0 F
30 min Step Add 8.80 qt of water at 182.3 F 145.0 F
40 min Step Decoct 4.28 qt of mash and boil it 159.0F

>> Notes:
------------
-Add honey at flameout (raw NY state wildflower)

-4 cracked peppercorns (not sure if my scale was accurate with the .1 oz
measurement)

-Starter from dregs of Fantome Pissinlit (1000 ml). For step-up added
smack pack of 3711 and 1500 ml wort

-Pitched mixed starter @75F, held @75 for 7 days then lowered to 66. Six
weeks in primary.

-Added .5 oz of both rose buds and hibiscus to secondary for 5 days

-overshot dough-in. ended up at 118

-I used city water treated with campden and added 1.5 tsp CaCl to the
mash.

-Used 30 seconds of pure O2

-The bitterness is listed as 26.6 ibu but, since most of ibu's came from
first wort hopping, I think the perceived bitterness is lower

-Bottled @ 1.002 (around 3 vol) and let bottle condition for 2-3 months before I started to taste. As mentioned before, it changed a bit in the bottle over time. I thought it was best at about 4-6 months in the bottle but still quite tasty after a year.

http://www.realbrewersyeast.com/2014-brewer-s-strain-list.html
RBY58 Fantome Saison clone #1

Anyone tried this yet?

I haven't tried this but...
There are several yeast banks that carry a Fantome sacc strain these days which is great-it does make a difference. However, if this is a pure strain and not a blend of sacc, brett, and bacteria then you're not going to end up with a product that resembles the best Fantomes of the past (there was around two years there where all of the beers they released had major fermentation problems but I hear the problem has now been fixed).

If you want a single pitch without dealing with bottle dregs, etc. to approximate Fantome then you should probably check out one of the blends that are available from various yeast banks. IIR, ECY and the Yeast Bay have blends that would better fit the bill (though I haven't personally used those blends).

And, for what it's worth, I think it's considered bad form and potentially legally sticky to advertise the brewery source, by name, of the yeast you're selling as those guys are doing. That's why you see other yeast banks listing the geographical location that their yeast originated from rather than a brewery (though if you contact most yeast banks they'll usually confirm the source for you).

Oh, and I did my yearly re-brew of this recipe last December using Jolly Pumpkin dregs, a pure Fantome sacc strain, brett C1 from BKyeast and 3711 to try to approximate the cultured Fantome dregs and 3711 blend in the original (again Fantome was experiencing a long-term QC issue for a while there so I didn't trust their dregs). The results were very tasty. The beer is very similar but the bacteria from the JP weren't quite as aggressive as the Fantome bacteria. At almost a year old it is slightly tart but not as much as the previous batches. I think I preferred the previous version but I have friends who prefer this version...either way it's still very good.
I'll probably brew this again in late Dec or early Jan.