Well water and homebrew

Its been about 10 years since I homebrewed in college. I lived at my parents house and the city water was excellent for homebrewing. I did mostly extract beer with pellet hopps and steeped specialty grains. I would just add cold tap water for the top off to bring it up to 5 gallons and it would be ~70 degF for pitching. I typically ended up with pretty good stuff.

Well I want to start brewing again but now I live in a house out in the country with well water. We have an iron filter and water softener and the water is clear, well airated, and tastes pretty good. The raw well water is not the most pleasant.

With this situation can I brew like I used to, or do I need to be concerned with the water? will I need to add any water additives? (Gypsum) Should I do full volume boils, and get a chiller?

TIA

If you're doing extract brews, and your water tastes good, you should be fine. I don't think you'd want water out of the water softener though, since that must add some chemicals. I know some people buy bottled spring water in situations like yours. I'm lucky- I have excellent city water (although hard) and it works great!

I have a well with softener and either boil or use bottled water for the top off. Probably just paranoia, but I know that while my tap water tastes OK right out of the tap, if it sits for a while it has a slightly chemical taste, maybe from the softener chemicals but I don't know. In any case, I don't want to risk passing off flavors into the brew. I've never had any problems when the water is boiled but have switched to bottled water for the top off since I'm kinda lazy and just got sick of boiling then cooling the top off water.

I use the water from my well all the time with no noticable issue.

I have slightly hard water with a pretty high mineral content. No water softener, but i do have a sediment filter on the line.

With very light beers (as light as I can get with extract), I can notice (if I really look for it) a slight aftertaste from the water, but it is very subdued.

Actually, I've been happier with my well water than the 'city' water. Mine is cold, fresh, and un-chlorinated. The city water runs through miles of pipes, filters, chlorination, etc.

The way ours and most water softeners work is by running the water through some type of pelletized media. (specialized filter) And the minerals dissolved in the water adhere to the media. When the capacity is used up, the media is back flushed with a brine solution to break loose the minerals from the media and the system is rinsed clean to start over. Many people incorrectly think the salt is what softens water. So actually there are no chemicals added at all. Maybe just maybe there might be some tiny tiny trace amounts of residual salt from the back flush.

I'm curious to hear what others on well water do?

I have two roads that I 'travel' by. Since I have well water that has a significant amount of iron, it is shock chlorinated to precipitate the iron. It then goes into a collection bed of sorts where it settles and is drained off every so often. The water tastes good, no noticeable chlorine. I do mess with the pH because the iron makes it acidic. Plus it needs to be in a certain range for the clearing to be optimized. This is accomplished with soda Ash. I use this water for all of my dark beers. Anything from Amber to Stout in color.

Pils, Wheat, etc...all the lighter colored beer and some of my other recipes I go and get spring water from a mountain spring. In both cases the beers are excellent....

I guess the moral of the story is that you should give a brew a whirl, maybe a NutBrown and see how it turns out!

Oh and, yes go to full boils and a chiller if you have chlorine present.

the_wickster said:

The way ours and most water softeners work is by running the water through some type of pelletized media. (specialized filter) And the minerals dissolved in the water adhere to the media. When the capacity is used up, the media is back flushed with a brine solution to break loose the minerals from the media and the system is rinsed clean to start over. Many people incorrectly think the salt is what softens water. So actually there are no chemicals added at all. Maybe just maybe there might be some tiny tiny trace amounts of residual salt from the back flush.

I'm curious to hear what others on well water do?

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I'm sorry, but you are only partially correct. It is in fact the salt that is used during regeneration that repleneshes the sodium ions in the media used to soften the well water.

A water softener replaces the calcium and magnesium ions in the water with sodium ions. Since sodium does not precipitate out in pipes or react badly with soap, both of the problems of hard water are eliminated (scale buildup and sticky soap scum). To do the ion replacement, the water from the well runs through a bed of small plastic beads or through a chemical matrix called zeolite. The beads are covered with sodium ions. As the water flows past the sodium ions, they swap places with the calcium and magnesium ions. Eventually, the beads contain nothing but calcium and magnesium and no sodium, and at this point they stop softening the water. It is then time to regenerate the beads.

Regeneration involves soaking the beads in a stream of sodium ions. Salt is sodium chloride, so the water softener mixes up a very strong brine solution and flushes it through the beads (this is why you load up a water softener with salt). The strong brine displaces all of the calcium and magnesium that has built up in the beads and replaces it again with sodium. The remaining brine plus all of the calcium and magnesium is flushed out through a drain pipe.

johnsma22 said:

I'm sorry, but you are only partially correct. It is in fact the salt that is used during regeneration that repleneshes the sodium ions in the media used to soften the well water.

A water softener replaces the calcium and magnesium ions in the water with sodium ions. Since sodium does not precipitate out in pipes or react badly with soap, both of the problems of hard water are eliminated (scale buildup and sticky soap scum). To do the ion replacement, the water from the well runs through a bed of small plastic beads or through a chemical matrix called zeolite. The beads are covered with sodium ions. As the water flows past the sodium ions, they swap places with the calcium and magnesium ions. Eventually, the beads contain nothing but calcium and magnesium and no sodium, and at this point they stop softening the water. It is then time to regenerate the beads.

Regeneration involves soaking the beads in a stream of sodium ions. Salt is sodium chloride, so the water softener mixes up a very strong brine solution and flushes it through the beads (this is why you load up a water softener with salt). The strong brine displaces all of the calcium and magnesium that has built up in the beads and replaces it again with sodium. The remaining brine plus all of the calcium and magnesium is flushed out through a drain pipe.

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Geez John, if you aren't sure what you are talking about, or can't articulate it very well, maybe you shouldn't be correcting people....



LOL. Nice piece of info -- thanks!

John thanks for the clarification.

Now the big question. Should the softened water be any concern with my homebrew.


Warning

My point/understanding was that the sofetner doesn't just add salt to the water to soften it.

When they say your water hardness is "x" grains. What exactly is that a measurement of? Also I believe our new softener has an adjustment for how hard/soft (# of grains output) the water is. Is this worth playing with? (from a homebrew perspective)

There are 7000 grains to a pound, so water hardness of X grains is X *1 lb/7000 per gallon. One gpg (1gpg) is equivalent to 17.1 ppm or mg/l. Hard water: 7.0 - 10.5 gpg = 120 - 180 ppm

Too much salt can prevent proper yeast growth. I would taste the water coming out of the iron processor. If it taste ok, you are probably better off using that as a source. It would be worth the price to have the water at that point analyzed, as well as the softener output. Some styles do very well with hard water. Key words: Burton's salts

[I'm guessing that the adjuster allows some of the water to flow through the ion exchanger and some to bypass it. That's the easy way.]

I was worried about that as well. I live near a place that treats their water and it comes from the same aquifer as mine. Their water tastes like chlorine, and mine smells like a mineral deposit. I used theirs once and NEVER again. It made the most horrible metallic beer I've ever made. Since using my well water, my brews have been excellent. I use a softener as well, but it only uses salt as a cleanser for the resin bed, never noticed any funky taste.

the_wickster said:

John thanks for the clarification.

Now the big question. Should the softened water be any concern with my homebrew.


Warning

My point/understanding was that the sofetner doesn't just add salt to the water to soften it.

When they say your water hardness is "x" grains. What exactly is that a measurement of? Also I believe our new softener has an adjustment for how hard/soft (# of grains output) the water is. Is this worth playing with? (from a homebrew perspective)

Click to expand...

Softened water is not good for use in beer making because like I said, it replaces the ions you want (calcium, magnesium in the right concentrations for the given beer style) with sodium ions. Sodium is a required flavor ion, but not in the concentrations that are found in softened water.

What you can do is take your brewing water after the sediment filter (if you have one) and before the softener. If there is no provision to tap into the water supply before the softener, it wouldn't be too much trouble to put one in. After that, send a sample to Ward Lab to determine your water chemistry. It costs $15 for the W-6 Household mineral test. It will tell you the concentrations of all the ions that homebrewers need to know about.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]W-6[/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Household Mineral Test[/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]$15.00[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Sodium
Calcium
Magnesium
Potassium
Carbonate
Bicarbonate
Chloride
[/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Sulfate
Nitrate
Electrical Conductivity
Est. Total Dissolved Solids
pH
Total Hardness (Lime)
Total Alkalinity[/FONT]

Radarbrew said:

I use a softener as well, but it only uses salt as a cleanser for the resin bed, never noticed any funky taste.

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As the salt is used to clean the resin bed of the calcium and magnesium, the sodium ions in the salt replenish the sodium ions used previously to soften the water (ion exchange). So the salt is directly responsible for softening the water by adding sodium ions to the resin.

Hell I use it all the time.. Makes great brew for me..Brew on!!

Here we go again...

Well I'm going to get 3 tests from ward. Raw well, after the iron filter, and after the iron filter and softener. I can bypass each unit so I'll just flush pipes with plenty of water before each test.

I'm going to use the w-5 test that seems to cover a little more stuff. (I was curious if we have fluoride in our water anyway)

I will post the results and ask opinions. I hope y'all don't mind

I did a little more searching here and read at howtobrew.com some information about water quality. Most of it applied for all-grain and mashing. Which doesn't apply to me. (Yet)

But I did read this part about steeping grains with extract brewing:

Water chemistry also plays a role in tannin extraction. Steeping the heavily roasted malts in very soft water will produce conditions that are too acidic and harsh flavors will result. Likewise, steeping the lightest crystal malts in hard water could produce conditions that are too alkaline and tannin extraction would be a problem again. In this case, the terms Hard and Soft Water are being used to indicate a high (>200 ppm) or low(<50 ppm) level of carbonates and the degree of alkalinity of the brewing water.

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Is it really that simple? I may just start out with a light ale. Otherwise I've read which others have said, that if it tastes good then it should be fine for extract brewing.

the_wickster said:

Is it really that simple? I may just start out with a light ale. Otherwise I've read which others have said, that if it tastes good then it should be fine for extract brewing.

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In that case, please refer back to post #2!

Truly, if the water tastes good, it should be fine for extract brewing. (Sorry I brought up the softener!)

I was told years ago by a LHBS owner that well water was "perfect" for brewing. Good enough for me.

Bernie Brewer said:

I was told years ago by a LHBS owner that well water was "perfect" for brewing. Good enough for me.

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That is a pretty general statement, with LOTS of exceptions to it. I would be REALLY cautious about following that advice.

Having said that, a friend of mine used to use really hard well water to brew his beer, and his stouts were absolutely fantastic. His pilsners really sucked, though. I now realize that the water was probably behind the quality of both beers.

Right down the road from the HBS is a shack that sells water from the city. If I remember before I make the trip I take a couple Coleman jugs and fill them for the brew water. It don't cost much, and I HAVE BRIBED the guy there for water/beer trade. There, I said it, where's those damn black helicopters?

FlyGuy said:

That is a pretty general statement, with LOTS of exceptions to it. I would be REALLY cautious about following that advice.

Having said that, a friend of mine used to use really hard well water to brew his beer, and his stouts were absolutely fantastic. His pilsners really sucked, though. I now realize that the water was probably behind the quality of both beers.

Click to expand...

True, it is a general statement, but since both the LHBS guy and I live in the same area, I would tend to agree with him, at least in my neck of the woods. I like my water for brewing, so it's all good.

Right-o! That's all that's really important, isn't it! Cheers!

Bernie Brewer said:

I was told years ago by a LHBS owner that well water was "perfect" for brewing. Good enough for me.

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So Bernie looking at your avatar (I believe the barrel is still at Lake Front Brewery) I'm guessing your from Milwaukee Area.

I'm in sussex. Cheers

FlyGuy said:

Having said that, a friend of mine used to use really hard well water to brew his beer, and his stouts were absolutely fantastic. His pilsners really sucked, though. I now realize that the water was probably behind the quality of both beers.

Click to expand...

I knew (mostly from reading early on in Palmer) that I would have to do something for my lighter colored beers. Just had to. I am fortunate to have access to a good healthy mountain spring for those beers. There is no way I could make a Pils come out good with my well water. The chemistry is just not there. I could eff with it but then you get into another world of having to adjust one more variable (and a big one at that) to have consistency.

OK got some water results from Ward for my well.

Well w/ Iron Filter
pH 7.6
Sodium, Na 20
Potassium, K 1
Calcium, Ca 112
Magnesium, Mg 53
Total Hardness, CaCO3 501
Nitrate, NO3 -N 0.4 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4 -S 10
Chloride, Cl 121
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 425
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 349
Floride, F 0.22
Total Iron, Fe 0.05

Well w/ Iron Filter & Softener
pH 7.5
Sodium, Na 232
Potassium, K 4
Calcium, Ca 1
Magnesium, Mg < 1
Total Hardness, CaCO3 3
Nitrate, NO3 -N 0.4 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4 -S 10
Chloride, Cl 105
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 432
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 354
Floride, F 0.24
Total Iron, Fe 0.05

Now that I understand how the water softener works a little better this makes total sense. I'm waiting for another set of results for the well without the Iron filter but I imagine that the only real difference will be higher Iron content.

With my limited brewing education I get the impression that my water is very Alkaline and would work best for dark stouts and porters. (which I love) But I like to mix up my batches and the wife likes the lighter stuff.

Keeping in mind that for the time being I'll be doing extract brewing with steeping specialty grains, (maybe a small partial mash as I get into it more) I would like some recommendations / comments about using this water. The hard stuff and/or the soft stuff and any changes I should make for brewing certain beer styles.

Your pH is around 7-ish so that makes your water neutral, not alkaline. Higher than 7 is alkaline and lower than 7 is acidic. The scale goes from 0 to 14.

Fingers said:

Your pH is around 7-ish so that makes your water neutral, not alkaline. Higher than 7 is alkaline and lower than 7 is acidic. The scale goes from 0 to 14.

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You're getting confused by the terms. While you are correct that pH above 7 is alkaline and below 7 is acidic, that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about total alkalinity (carbonate, bicarbonate as CaCo3), which has to do with the concentration of these ions present in the water. Think of the concentration of these ions as a sponge. The higher the concentration of these ions, the more resistance there will be to a change in pH when adding something acidic to it, like grains.

the_wickster said:

OK got some water results from Ward for my well.

Well w/ Iron Filter
pH 7.6
Sodium, Na 20
Potassium, K 1
Calcium, Ca 112
Magnesium, Mg 53
Total Hardness, CaCO3 501
Nitrate, NO3 -N 0.4 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4 -S 10
Chloride, Cl 121
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 425
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 349
Floride, F 0.22
Total Iron, Fe 0.05

Well w/ Iron Filter & Softener
pH 7.5
Sodium, Na 232
Potassium, K 4
Calcium, Ca 1
Magnesium, Mg < 1
Total Hardness, CaCO3 3
Nitrate, NO3 -N 0.4 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4 -S 10
Chloride, Cl 105
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 432
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 354
Floride, F 0.24
Total Iron, Fe 0.05

Now that I understand how the water softener works a little better this makes total sense. I'm waiting for another set of results for the well without the Iron filter but I imagine that the only real difference will be higher Iron content.

With my limited brewing education I get the impression that my water is very Alkaline and would work best for dark stouts and porters. (which I love) But I like to mix up my batches and the wife likes the lighter stuff.

Keeping in mind that for the time being I'll be doing extract brewing with steeping specialty grains, (maybe a small partial mash as I get into it more) I would like some recommendations / comments about using this water. The hard stuff and/or the soft stuff and any changes I should make for brewing certain beer styles.

Click to expand...

You can see that the softened water removed just about all of your Ca and Mg and replaced them with sodium. Sodium present at levels higher than 200 ppm and your beer will be noticably salty.

Your water, as you astutely noticed, is highly suited for darker beers. To brew lighter beers you will need to cut your water with some amount of distilled water to reduce the ion concentrations.

Fingers said:

Your pH is around 7-ish so that makes your water neutral, not alkaline. Higher than 7 is alkaline and lower than 7 is acidic. The scale goes from 0 to 14.

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Fingers, I think he meant with respect to the ion concentration in the water, no pH. The well water definitely has high alkalinity.

The water tests definitely prove your water softener works! Unfortunately, it works too well for you to use the softened water for brewing.

Given the hardness and high alkalinity of your water, you can certainly make some really good stouts and porters. But if you want to do anything lighter, you are going to need to reduce the alkalinity. Unfortunately, there isn't enough hardness in your water to balance your alkalinity (i.e. high residual alkalinity), so dilution with distilled water is a good option. Alternatively, you have low sulfate concentrations (affects bitterness) so adding calcium sulfate (gypsum) and then boiling your water to precipitate out some of that alkalinity would be a very good option. That would solve two problems in one step.

John Palmer's "How to Brew" and Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide both have excellent discussions of water treatment. John also has some water calculators posted on his howtobrew.com website that are very useful. His water nomograph is particularly handy.

Also note that until you start mashing grains, most of this is irrelevant. The alkalinity of the water is (relatively speaking) unimportant for extract brewing. What matters most is the flavour of your water (must taste good) and other ion concentrations. Your low sulfate levels is the one I would watch out for -- especially if you are brewing hoppy beers like an IPA.

Cheers!

the_wickster said:

Its been about 10 years since I homebrewed in college. I lived at my parents house and the city water was excellent for homebrewing. I did mostly extract beer with pellet hopps and steeped specialty grains. I would just add cold tap water for the top off to bring it up to 5 gallons and it would be ~70 degF for pitching. I typically ended up with pretty good stuff.

Well I want to start brewing again but now I live in a house out in the country with well water. We have an iron filter and water softener and the water is clear, well airated, and tastes pretty good. The raw well water is not the most pleasant.

With this situation can I brew like I used to, or do I need to be concerned with the water? will I need to add any water additives? (Gypsum) Should I do full volume boils, and get a chiller?

TIA

Click to expand...

My home uses a well for our water supply. When I had the well put in, I did some research and found that there where all kinds of abandoned dumps in my area. As I expanded my research I found that most locations in the vicinity of cites and towns are build on top or very near abandoned dump areas.

So, though when softened, my water tastes pretty good, I use purchased spring water for our family consumption. Now that I am brewing I am looking for cost effective way to acquire pure water. Please jump in the thread if you have a similar situation and have come with a good cost effective solution.

Rich