Legal?

I have a friend who wants to pay me to brew for thier wedding. i insisted pay was not needed, but he insisted right back that he wanted to pay me. If he pays me for a batch of homebrew and i dont have a liquor license, im assuming thats illegal right?

Yes.

He can't pay you for any product you make. But he can buy the kit, have you make it, that way the beer is his.

Tell him he can't pay you, but he could buy you equipment to help you in the task. If you are like most home brewers, you probably have your eye on some upgrades or need new fermenting vessels or something.

Sell him a ketchup packet out of your fridge for $100 or so and tell him the beer is free......

He may not be able to pay you, but you can't stop him from buying you lap dances during the bachelor party.

ha well that all is great advice, one more thing though. is getting a liquor license as easy as going online and taking a test, or do i have to go through legit training or something...

Here in Aus (I assume similar to the states) you need to be pass certain criteria from a liqour board and I dont think it is particularily easy.

Surely he can pay for ingredients (plus extra for ingredients for yourself) and you can brew it up.

Being in the legal field, I say you give him all the beer he wants. It is a great gift and thus legal. If he gives you a great gift of cash or whatever, that is his choice. When granny gave you a card with a $100 bill the government never bothered with it, not that they wouldn't if yet could.

You are not selling him beer at all. The other way around it if you feel guilty is that you gave him the beer but he paid for the ingredients.

But I like the free lap dance option.

Cheers

Arg1129 said:

Being in the legal field, I say you give him all the beer he wants. It is a great gift and thus legal. If he gives you a great gift of cash or whatever, that is his choice. When granny gave you a card with a $100 bill the government never bothered with it, not that they wouldn't if yet could.

You are not selling him beer at all. The other way around it if you feel guilty is that you gave him the beer but he paid for the ingredients.

But I like the free lap dance option.

Cheers

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my understanding was that it was illegal to remove the beer from your home except for compitions. That being said I also think that the feds are not likely going to bother chasing (or proving) that one time when you gave 10 gallons of beer to your mate. Biggest point - how are they going to find out

mattd2 said:

my understanding was that it was illegal to remove the beer from your home except for compitions. That being said I also think that the feds are not likely going to bother chasing (or proving) that one time when you gave 10 gallons of beer to your mate. Biggest point - how are they going to find out

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Sorry Matt I didn't look to see you were in New Zealand, Go All Blacks! I live in California so I was going off our laws. I had know there is no problem giving beer away here. My LHBS serves its customers beers here and there, without charging, and it's never been an issue.

jefferym09 said:

ha well that all is great advice, one more thing though. is getting a liquor license as easy as going online and taking a test, or do i have to go through legit training or something...

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We should be so lucky if it were that easy!

In short, no, lots of paperwork and you go through the TTB to do it.

I will add also, if your friend is having his party at a hotel or banquet hall he should check with them about being able to bring homebrew in as many locations will not allow it either due to state law or distribution contracts. Not sure how Oregon handles those things.............

Just give it as a gift, and if he has to give you something, let him buy you a steak dinner.

mattd2 said:

my understanding was that it was illegal to remove the beer from your home except for compitions. That being said I also think that the feds are not likely going to bother chasing (or proving) that one time when you gave 10 gallons of beer to your mate. Biggest point - how are they going to find out

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Perhaps an occasional ATF agent perusing through a home brewing forum website. It could happen you know.......?

Do you suppose you were in the middle of a sting operation and if you would have accepted payment all sort of cops would have jumped out and arrested you?

That sounds like it could really happen...

But to get back to topic, YES, very illegal to let him pay you for the beer.
I think that him buying you stuff (other than ingredients) could also be construed as receiving "goods and services" and that can also be illegal.

mattd2 said:

my understanding was that it was illegal to remove the beer from your home except for compitions. That being said I also think that the feds are not likely going to bother chasing (or proving) that one time when you gave 10 gallons of beer to your mate. Biggest point - how are they going to find out

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I was able to do this in NC recently without a problem. I assume the hotel would be cognizant of the appropriate laws but who knows. We had a family event at a hotel in town recently where I brought two homebrew kegs that I had made for the celebration. The hotel had no problem doing it. They charged me a "corking" fee but other than that they were happy to serve it to everyone.

EDIT: I just took a look at the American Homebrewer's Association website and they have a section where you can look up the laws by state. In NC it is legal. North Carolina Chapter 18B, Article 3, §18B-306 permits an individual to make, possess, and transport native wines and malt beverages for his own use and for the use of his family and guests.

As others have mentioned, the payment is the thing that is not legal.

jefferym09 said:

ha well that all is great advice, one more thing though. is getting a liquor license as easy as going online and taking a test, or do i have to go through legit training or something...

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Liquor licence as in brewing and selling beer?
Read this: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/i-went-pro-what-actually-takes-do-so-386476/

Yes it is illegal. No you won't get caught since no one really cares what goes on between two friends. IF you really want to go by the letter of the law just have him come over and pitch the yeast. That way he technically made the beer.

Your biggest issue might be the reception hall. If they have to have a liquor license for bar service then they may not serve untaxed beer in order to protect themselves from prosecution.

Just sell him some "pretty" bottles. They just happen to not be empty yet.

Or, brew it, send it home with him and let him pitch the yeast.

In California, it is illegal, but I've been pulled over a few times with kegs of homebrew in the car, never had a problem.

It usually goes like this;
Cop "what's in that thing"
Me "beer I made"
Cop " how do you do that"
Me " magic! No, really I just cook it and ferment it"
Cop "cool, can you please sign here, and keep it under Mach 1 next time?"

It's super illegal and if someone got sick from drinking the beer and made a big fuss about it. You could get in a lot of trouble. What I would do is have him buy the ingredients and random equipment that you need and have him say he made it then your a** is covered.

If he spends money and you give him beer it's illegal regardless of how you try to spin it. If he gives you money, it's illegal. If he buys the ingredients and you give him beer, it's illegal. If you sell him a bottle and it happens to contain beer, it's illegal. If you sell him a sticker and it comes with a free beer, it's illegal. If you give him free beer and he drops money in a tip jar, it's illegal. Whatever workaround you think of, the Feds have thought of it first. Are the chances of getting caught miniscule? Yes. Is it a good idea to discuss breaking alcohol laws on a forum that is indexed and searchable by every major search engine? No.

Your choices are to either gift him the beer or have him buy the ingredients, come over and brew the beer with you, and have him pitch the yeast. Even then, you'll need to look at your state's laws regarding the removal of homebrew from the premises and make sure the venue will allow unlicensed alcohol to be served.

How to get away with things that won't hurt anyone but are technically "illegal"

Step #1: Do not post your intentions on a public web forum

Step #2: DO NOT POST YOUR INTENTIONS ON A PUBLIC WEB FORUM

Step #3: Do not publicize that he paid you for the beer. As far as guests know it was "donated"

Any questions?

I kind of like the idea of selling him the wort, and let him do the rest. Technically, it's not alcohol if it's not fermented.

I'd probably get busted for that too though.

Birthdays and Christmas are the good times of year for me and one of my good friends. It just so happens those event are about 3 months apart.

ktblunden said:

If he buys the ingredients and you give him beer, it's illegal.

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Can you expound on this one?

He bought the ingredients, you brewed it into beer, and returned the beer to him.

No money or item of value changed hands. What's the problem with this one?

Illegal? Yep

But seriously who is going to be there that would officially complain about you supplying beer to a private event? The ATF or local liquor control doesn't go trolling weddings, birthdays or BBQ's for people to bust. Unless you have a liquor license yourself that would be in jeopardy, and/or none of it's consumed by anyone under the age, or something doesn't happen that requires a police investigation. Go for it, make and share something that you are proud of. Voluntary donations gladly accepted of course.

thadius856 said:

Can you expound on this one?

He bought the ingredients, you brewed it into beer, and returned the beer to him.

No money or item of value changed hands. What's the problem with this one?

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It's a form of bartering at that point. The ingredients are the item of value. You're not paying the money you would generally pay for those ingredients, which gives them an inherent value, in exchange you're giving him beer.

the legality and risk management are two separate issues.

any compensation, not legal
any distribution, legality varies state to state

risk of prosecution, low

just don't believe your own BS schemes to make it legal, know the laws being broken.

If it harms no one but avoids being taxed by big Fed...it must be illegal!

ktblunden said:

It's a form of bartering at that point. The ingredients are the item of value. You're not paying the money you would generally pay for those ingredients, which gives them an inherent value, in exchange you're giving him beer.

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He gives you grain, you give him nothing.

You make beer with the grain.

You give him the grain back in beer form, he gives you nothing.

Gifting back and forth, maybe. But bartering? That's a stretch. To qualify as barter, both parties have to benefit in some way.

I could understand it if maybe he bought you two 50# sacks of 2-row, you made him 10 gallons of a blonde, and kept the grain.

Jayhem said:

If it harms no one but avoids being taxed by big Fed...it must be illegal!

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It's as much a public safety issue as it is a taxation issue.

I, for one, am glad that the government prevents dirty old man Joe's bathtub gin from landing on my grocery store shelf.

Its called a "gift" for a reason. If he decides to pay you for you troubles thats not a problem...

Its the way you word it that makes people (govt) antsy. Theres always a loophole

thadius856 said:

He gives you grain, you give him nothing.
You make beer with the grain.
You give him the grain back in beer form, he gives you nothing.
Gifting back and forth, maybe. But bartering? That's a stretch. To qualify as barter, both parties have to benefit in some way.
I could understand it if maybe he bought you two 50# sacks of 2-row, you made him 10 gallons of a blonde, and kept the grain.

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I could definitely be wrong, but I don't see how this is bartering. You're donating your time and effort to brew for him. You're getting nothing back. He bought the ingredients for his beer. Nothing is yours. As mentioned, if he bought you more ingredients than you used, that would be bartering, but I don't see it here. You gain nothing in the transaction.

tennesseean_87 said:

I could definitely be wrong, but I don't see how this is bartering. You're donating your time and effort to brew for him. You're getting nothing back. He bought the ingredients for his beer. Nothing is yours. As mentioned, if he bought you more ingredients than you used, that would be bartering, but I don't see it here. You gain nothing in the transaction.

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One of the first few replies discussed the possibility of there being "additional" materials purchased for the OP.
That is my basis for saying it will be illegal in some eye of the law.

thadius856 said:

It's as much a public safety issue as it is a taxation issue.

I, for one, am glad that the government prevents dirty old man Joe's bathtub gin from landing on my grocery store shelf.

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I fail to see how homebrew is a "public safety issue" It has been proven that no known pathogens can survive in beer. You might get awful beer but it won't make you physically sick.
Whenever the legal subject comes up I always ask...Does it pass the sniff test? The OP's buddy wants him to brew some beer and is willing to compensate him for his time and ingredients. He is willing to do it as a one time, special occasion deal. This is clearly not what the law is meant to enforce (unlicensed breweries) as evidenced by the complete lack of enforcement of these types of situations. Look at other "services" we occasionally provide others. I drive someone to the airport and they give me 40 bucks for gas. Is that illegal since I am not licensed by the state as a taxi/limo and thus can't legally take a paying fare? How about if someone hires me to build a fence for them on my day off. Is that illegal since I am not a licensed contractor? It could be if I am trying to make a living off of it but not just for helping a buddy out. Oh...here's the best one that we have all done. You buy beer on your way to your buddy's house. You buddy gives you a twenty and tells you keep the change. Technically you have just broken a myriad of alcohol laws including unlicensed sale of alcohol. So why do we care so much about a guy accepting a little bit of money for his time and ingredients for his homebrew?

Long story short, YES it will be illegal, NO you almost certainly won't get caught, and YES, people do this all the time. If you're not a dick and don't try to sell to retail outlets and advertise yourself as a real business, you'll be fine. The easiest way will be to not take any money directly. Get them to give you a gift of adequate value in return.

Just went to a wedding where I had brewed 30 gal of three different beers. Had several requests to brew batches of our IPA and Belgian Tripel by some of the people there. They offered some nice coin to provide them with the beer, and two of them are cops. Fortunately I don't need the money so I'm brewing them each 5 gal for free, for the fun of it. But if I was short of funds, it would be no problem whatsoever to be paid for ingredients and labor...

Arg1129 said:

Being in the legal field, I say you give him all the beer he wants. It is a great gift and thus legal. If he gives you a great gift of cash or whatever, that is his choice. When granny gave you a card with a $100 bill the government never bothered with it, not that they wouldn't if yet could.

You are not selling him beer at all. The other way around it if you feel guilty is that you gave him the beer but he paid for the ingredients.

But I like the free lap dance option.

Cheers

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You must not be very good in your field. Most states it's illegal to give homebrew away. It is for personal and family consumption, a lot of states do make exceptions for contest and tastings. To give someone blanket advice that they can give away homebrew while saying you are in the legal field is just bad.

And Calif is one of the states where it is only for family consumption