Irish Stout Guinness Draught Clone

To my knowledge flaked is raw. The raw grain is pressed to allow the enzymes from the pale malt entrance to the starchy goodness locked inside.

Some where a while back I had read that the Guinness brewery used to use flaked barely so to me this isn't that big of an issue. The article went on to say that presently the brewery buys all of its grain and then separates some raw and then malts and roasts the other. So the amount that the brewery roasts the grain is now a factor also. The raw is milled with the rest of the grain in new state of the art mills with extremely hard mill heads. Since my mill is well.... it's not state of the art, the flaked is the only way to go. I also used Wyeast's Irish Ale.

The method of using the malt vinegar has gone well so far. I have yet to do a side by side taste test with Guinness, but it tastes quite good. I haven't approached the sourness level of Guinness because I'm looking for other off flavors when I do this. I'm convinced that the chocloate flavor will mask any off flavors when aged in large quantities. Right now I just pour enough malt vinegar to cover the bottom of my pub style thick pint glass. I then dispense the beer on top, this gets the vinegar mixed into the beer. It also gets any off the sides of the glass, which eleminates any vinegar smell.

Currently I'm mixing an extremely watered down lawnmower beer with the stout. About 10% of this is added at the top of the glass. I then call the mixture EMF Guinness. If this beer is tried without the lawn mower beer and any sour the brew seems a bit roasty, but with the sour, and nitro its great!:rockin:
I know that mixing beers may be a cheat. But it gets the flavor where it needs to be. I'm going to change things around a bit, but in the end mixing at the tap may be the only way to get as close as this mixture tastes IMO.

After brewing that other brew Let me know of your impressions and any adjustments. Thanks

Well, the interesting thing about the 135 rest is Palmer says if you don't have greater than 25% un-processed (raw) grain it will give you a thin beer. This recipe and the quoted recipe from the BYO article say 25% flaked barley so this recipe is right at the cusp and you know Guiness does the rest. I'm going to brew this Sunday and stick to RiClarke's method but I may brew it again and try the early mash temp rest.. The article about Guiness gave this mash schedule:

135F for 75 min
152.6F for 45 min
172 mashout 10 min

I'm using crisp maris otter for my base grain btw... Guiness is the 'light' dark beer ...

Yeah I can tell you it does just that, but 10% roasted is a bit high. I used those temps and rest times exactly. Along with 65% pale bries 2nd row, 25% flaked, and 10% roasted. I had also checked out Palmers say so on temps, and that's why I gave it a go. The color is just abit to dark also. I used

6.5 lb pale
2.5 lb Flaked
1 lb Roasted
2 oz. Kent Goldlings
1 package of Irish Ale Wyeast.

Keep us informed on your progress.

Just put the fermenter to bed with a blow off tube... got 73% eff and ended at 1.053... which I also noticed that Riclarke got too... I think if 1.051 is the true intention of this clone we need to reduce the grain bill a tad. Meanwhile I have been reading up on the mystical Guinness and its first incarnations were up around 1.070 but at the turn of the last century they watered it down a bit.

I went the route of the 'soured' Guinness for 4 days... boiled it and added it to the final minute of the boil...

I used a 700ml starter of Wyeast 1084 (Irish Ale) and I'm ready for the fireworks to begin...

I'll report back after I bottle and taste

Sounds good. The more I play with the malt vinegar, the more I think there must be a better solution. I remember reading in an article on Guinness that the brew masters mix batches to get the flavor right. This could be a cover for adding some of their soured beer extract, who knows?
When reading some of these articles I'm not sure if it is coming from a person who knows brewing or a Technical writer who really doesn't know what he or she's talking about. A real good example is on the Guiness website currently. Under the Guinness Draught section, look for how we make it, I do this periodically at Guinness and Samuel Adams for give aways and insite. Guiness currently says that at the boil they add there hops and roasted barley.Hmmmm is right. I'm not sure about this you make the call..... I'm thinking of trying it but I'm a little afraid of off flavors and tannins. Any thoughts??

kitemanks said:

Guiness currently says that at the boil they add there hops and roasted barley.Hmmmm is right. I'm not sure about this you make the call..... I'm thinking of trying it but I'm a little afraid of off flavors and tannins. Any thoughts??

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Considering

kitemanks said:

Guiness currently says that at the boil they add there hops and roasted barley.Hmmmm is right. I'm not sure about this you make the call..... I'm thinking of trying it but I'm a little afraid of off flavors and tannins. Any thoughts??

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Considering you can't copyright a recipe they certainly are the tricksters... so much myth regarding this brew. Water from local river, water from Mountains, secret ingredients, better tasting their than here, magical healing powers, etc. etc. As legendary as it gets. I computed out their hops and it worked out to about 1.6 oz per 5 gal. but yet I have some published sources that claim their IBUs near 50. William Moore's beginners guide to brewing has Guinness OG at 1.050 and IBU at 50 25% hoppier than this recipe. But less ABV... who knows.. I want some of the real guinness that was 1.070.. I'm sure we can make that happen...

:rockin:

I'm going to put this recipe together this weekend.
Due to some time constraints, it would be easier to do the mash/sparge on friday night and the boil, etc. on saturday.
Does this sound like a good (or bad) idea to anyone? I can't see it affecting the beer - but I haven't done it before.


Thanks!

CanadianNorth said:

I'm going to put this recipe together this weekend.
Due to some time constraints, it would be easier to do the mash/sparge on friday night and the boil, etc. on saturday.
Does this sound like a good (or bad) idea to anyone? I can't see it affecting the beer - but I haven't done it before.

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I keep it covered up and you should have no issues. There is no first wort hops or anything either so should be clean to just start the boil the next day.

I'm bottling mine on Saturday, 4 weeks after brewing... spent the last 4 days at a convention drinking Guiness on tap so I've prepared my taste buds for a comparison. Btw, imho Guiness is an amazing brew... just amazing.

so,

just doing up my batch. I've only done a dozen or so brews, and I've always fly sparged. I guess it's just easier.

Here is a question:
Guessing your mash time + 2 20 minute sparges came out to 85 minutes or so, I did my mash for 75 minutes instead of 45 and then fly sparged.

Does that sound right?

Are there real benifits to batch sparging ?? (my 5gal cooler doesn't leave room for 2 gal of sparge water to be added).

Not sure about the additional mash time, I'm sure the brew will be fine but with Batch sparging the batch/batches of sparge water are attempting to target 168 which is a sparge/mashout really and it is intended to shut off the enzymatic activity (denatures (breaks apart) or deforms) the enzymes so they can no longer work. I don't fly sparge but I thought fly sparging's target was also 168 and for the same reasons. I think you should have just mashed for 45 min. and then fly sparged but I'm by FAR no expert on this

CanadianNorth said:

so,
Are there real benifits to batch sparging ?? (my 5gal cooler doesn't leave room for 2 gal of sparge water to be added).

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You can break the batch sparge up into as many batches as you need. Three, four, it is doable. There are a bunch of threads about batch vs. fly, so not to go into it too deep and people will argue about it. Typically fly sparging gives you better eff. than batch sparging but it is quicker. You could save yourself maybe 30-60 min, maybe more - typically. That would also depend upon how large your HLT or kettle is and how fast you can prepare 3 batches. I'm getting in the low to mid 70's for brewhouse eff. doing 2 batch sparges in a 10 gal cooler. I have to heat up usually 2.5 to 3.5 gal for each sparge. Probably takes about an hour to sparge my way, not sure if that is faster than it would take me to fly sparge.

mattmcl said:

I hear you. I prime with DME, which gives smaller bubbles, the mouthfeel is closer to nitrogen. IMHO anyway.

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I don't understand how that is possible. In my mund, a volume of co2 is the same no matter the source.

Are you sure the fermentables that you get from the dme equal to that you would have used in dextrose?

Or force carbing, for that matter.

Thanks,

One question though, what is the benefit of a 45min mash? Most mashes I've seen call for 90 minutes...

Brewed this recipe today. Went pretty well but I seem to have a pretty high OG, something in the 1.060 range. And my hops were 4.5% kent goldings, so I think with a higher gravity and lower alpha hops that the flavor is going to be a little off from the recipe intention, but I bet itle still be good.

Just bottled, 4 week fermentation - FG is only 1.018 though, I used Wyeast Irish Ale Yeast and primaried for 4 weeks at 65F. The taste out of the fermenter is heavenly, I mean spot on, just a hint of coffee from roasted barley... I bottled with DME to 2.2 volumes.

ok,

so I just put this in the keg, and all is good - except I'm getting too much of a burnt flavor off the roast barley.....

Here is a bit of a dumb question - should I be cracking my roast barley at the same settings as my other grain? I recall it seemed to 'crumble' a bit more.. could this be the problem?

That's a great question.

I read in Homebrew for Dummies that one shouldn't crush the darker grains. I mentioned this on another forum and was told that homebrew for dummies was only good as toilet paper. Mind you, they do turn to dust that looks and tastes like the scrapings of burnt toast. I use a much wider setting.

I did this recipe too (apart from the soured guinness, plain forgot). It started out with a burnt taste but that seems to have mellowed. It's a really nice smooth stout now.

Philsc said:

That's a great question.

I read in Homebrew for Dummies that one shouldn't crush the darker grains. I mentioned this on another forum and was told that homebrew for dummies was only good as toilet paper. Mind you, they do turn to dust that looks and tastes like the scrapings of burnt toast. I use a much wider setting.

I did this recipe too (apart from the soured guinness, plain forgot). It started out with a burnt taste but that seems to have mellowed. It's a really nice smooth stout now.

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Thanks,

I have the same toilet paper!
(you have to start somewhere, I'm sure the people who refer to it as 'toilet paper' have published much better books themselves)

I'm glad to hear yours mellowed. How long has it been sitting?
I will adjust my mill from now on.

I have heard mixed reviews on using the Wyest Irish Ale yeast for stouts. Those of you that have used them with this recipe, does it create a sweeter stout or does it give you the dry guinness taste? Is the Nottingham a better choice? I am planning on trying this soon.

gunner11 said:

I have heard mixed reviews on using the Wyest Irish Ale yeast for stouts. Those of you that have used them with this recipe, does it create a sweeter stout or does it give you the dry guinness taste? Is the Nottingham a better choice? I am planning on trying this soon.

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Interesting you should ask, I used the Wyeast Irish Ale yeast on this and OG 1.053 and FG was like 1.017 which was higher than I thought I would have liked. Having said that I need to emphasize the word THOUGHT. This particular batch of beer is the first batch I ever made that I am considering not giving ANY away. It is that good. By far the best brew I ever made, and I've made a few gallons

Not trying to say not to use the Notty, I'm sure you will get better attenuation but the Irish really made an amazing beer and if I lost a few alcohol % I really don't care. Could it be drier... I'm not noticing a big difference. 2 people in a blind taste test who like Guiness were willing to bet me that mine was real Guiness... both were fooled completely. One is my buddy from Ireland so I know he knows since he's been drinking Guiness for 50+ years.

This recipe rocks I can't prost it enough, there are not enough thumbs...

Netflyer said:

Interesting you should ask, I used the Wyeast Irish Ale yeast on this and OG 1.053 and FG was like 1.017 which was higher than I thought I would have liked. Having said that I need to emphasize the word THOUGHT. This particular batch of beer is the first batch I ever made that I am considering not giving ANY away. It is that good. By far the best brew I ever made, and I've made a few gallons

Not trying to say not to use the Notty, I'm sure you will get better attenuation but the Irish really made an amazing beer and if I lost a few alcohol % I really don't care. Could it be drier... I'm not noticing a big difference. 2 people in a blind taste test who like Guiness were willing to bet me that mine was real Guiness... both were fooled completely. One is my buddy from Ireland so I know he knows since he's been drinking Guiness for 50+ years.

This recipe rocks I can't prost it enough, there are not enough thumbs...

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Awesome!!! Exactly what I was hoping to hear. The closer I can get to Guinness the better.

Follow the recipe though, sour the real Guiness a few days before or a week before and freeze it away... I soured it for about 5 days and then just boiled it and put it in the wort on the 5th day when I brewed.

Netflyer said:

Follow the recipe though, sour the real Guiness a few days before or a week before and freeze it away... I soured it for about 5 days and then just boiled it and put it in the wort on the 5th day when I brewed.

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Will do. I can not wait to give this a try. I am an avid Guinness fan.

I can't wait to give this a try. Is anyone aging this beer for anytime? Or are most drinking it as soon as it's ready? Can anyone comment who has let it age, as far as better or worse?

Well, I started tasting after a week in the bottle... Week one was outstanding with serious coffee aftertones (although of course it was undercarbonated this young in the bottle), week two was also outstanding with slightly less aftertones but better blended flavors and carb was nice, I'm not up to week 3 yet. Guiness is the light dark beer though, it isn't meant to need much aging. As opposed to a thick porter with a crud load of black patent and chocolate, heh, I tried that it needed 6 mos... this is pretty quickly very drinkable... I think others would agree.

Netflyer said:

Well, I started tasting after a week in the bottle... Week one was outstanding with serious coffee aftertones (although of course it was undercarbonated this young in the bottle), week two was also outstanding with slightly less aftertones but better blended flavors and carb was nice, I'm not up to week 3 yet. Guiness is the light dark beer though, it isn't meant to need much aging. As opposed to a thick porter with a crud load of black patent and chocolate, heh, I tried that it needed 6 mos... this is pretty quickly very drinkable... I think others would agree.

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But how did it compare with Guiness?

Made this beer a few weeks ago, just transfered to the keg for a little conditioning. Gave it a taste and this beer is great. Can't wait till its ready I'll enjoy this one a little more than usual this St. Patrick's Day.

Brewing a version today as we speak.

Had some mash problems.

Grist I used is:
5# Marris Otter
2.5# Flaked Barley
14 oz Roasted Barley

Mash PLAN was
120x 15 min
150x 60 min
168 MashOut

Here is what REALLY happened.

Crushed the Roast Barley to powder (as recommended by Zamil in a BYO article covering Dry Stout Sep 08 issue). Milled the rest as per usual.

Mashed in w 8qts @ 136, in my pre-heated Mash-Tun, and OVERSHOT the first rest by 9 degrees ! Only mashed for 13 min instead of 15 bc next infusion was at correct temp.

5.16 qts @ 190' (got this from Promash) to bring me to 150. Only hit 146 though, and that dropped to 143 by 30 minutes. So I added another qt of boiling water (promash said that'd take me to 150) I stabilized at around 147. dropped to 143 by 60 min mark, and I infused 9 qts boiling water - only hit 164, not the 168 target.

Something must be wrong here. Promash has been pretty good in past. Hate step mashes in the 10 gallon cooler BTW. Can't wait til my Brutus is done! Maybe the Thermal Mass is off 0.17 is what Ive been using, or maybe the grist bill too small for that cooler not sure. anyway on to the sparge.

Was planning a Batch sparge, but during first run-off stuck 3 times! Using a Bazooka screen since bottom has un-bonded and false bottom no longer works in this cooler (another reason looking forward to the Brutus!) As we speak, the last bit is slowly running off at a trickle and I can batch sparge and wait another hour....

So what went wrong? Thought the 120 rest would help reduce beta Glucans from the flaked barley? Too much roast malt powder/flour clogging the bazooka? Would Rice Hulls have helped? Maybe mash temp being off (129 instead of 120) threw out of Beta Glucan rest range - can't find my book right now to look up).

Also, why the screwed up mash targets used Promash... Is my grist bill too small for 10 gallon cooler? is the Thermal Mass off? Confused..

Question on the souring Guinness trick. Which guinness do you use? Can, Widget Bottle, or Stout Bottle w/yellowish label? You think I could boil the soured beer, and add to full keg once this batch is done? Did you add any uncrushed barleycorns to the bowl of guiness to provide the souring bacteria or just let airborne nasties do their job?

For any in the Orlando area, found a place to get Nitro mix cylinders, buy, filled, re-filled, and even rented I think.

Thanks!

TD

Why are you step mashing? The recipe doesn't call for it...

I'm using the mash schedule from the magazine article (BYO Sep 08')
Its just adds one extra step with temp at 120 at the start

TD

With these modified malts you don't need to do that. This here was made to be a simple recipe it turns out beyond amazing, why mess with Ri's mash schedule? Keep it simple, this one is amazing as is...

I thought Guiness draft was 125 cals/12oz. A 1.053 beer wouldn't be that low.

I'll let you all know how it turned out. Next time I'll try the recipe here, as it sounds like a great one. Wished I had seen it before this brew was planned.

However, I'd still appreciate any insight as to why my mash temp targets might have been off.

RH

Netflyer said:

With these modified malts you don't need to do that. This here was made to be a simple recipe it turns out beyond amazing, why mess with Ri's mash schedule? Keep it simple, this one is amazing as is...

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I am not so sure that flaked and roasted barley can be considered modified. The main portion of my grist however, is.

I love Guinness and no doubt I will be trying the recipe posted here next time I brew one, which for me is once a year. However, if I end up picking up the Nitro kit this weekend, I may have to try again sooner :rockin:

TD

TD, read back through this thread a bit - I was wondering about the BYO schedule too, convinced myself to try RiClarkes because 25% non-modified was right on the cusp of needing the early rest. I was convinced by others that the flaked was pressed and the enzymes were present and therefore didn't need the rest. I think if you scroll back you can see someone did follow the BYO mash and wasn't happy w/the results. The BYO ratio of Barley Malt to Flaked to Roasted is slightly different than this clone also. Again, in this thread people tried that and weren't as happy. So I figured I'd stick to the RiClarke method since he was working at it a good while. Sour the Guiness and one rest at 154F and the beer is really spot on only better cause it is fresh!

Netflyer said:

TD, read back through this thread a bit - I was wondering about the BYO schedule too, convinced myself to try RiClarkes because 25% non-modified was right on the cusp of needing the early rest. I was convinced by others that the flaked was pressed and the enzymes were present and therefore didn't need the rest. I think if you scroll back you can see someone did follow the BYO mash and wasn't happy w/the results. The BYO ratio of Barley Malt to Flaked to Roasted is slightly different than this clone also. Again, in this thread people tried that and weren't as happy. So I figured I'd stick to the RiClarke method since he was working at it a good while. Sour the Guiness and one rest at 154F and the beer is really spot on only better cause it is fresh!

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Which version of commercial Guinness was used for the souring? Can, Widget Bottle, or the Foreign Extra Stout? I assume the can or widget bottle.

I may try this recipe next, I'm intrigued. Though, right now, I doubt I could hit a Mash target to save my life!

TD

By the way, wanted to point out in case it wasn't obvious, earlier in the thread someone posted a nice link for an old BYO article detailing brewery and Guinness process. The "sources" I used for my recipe were (mostly) BYO magazine Clone recipes for 150 popular beers, AND their Sep 2008 issue which has an article by Jamil Zainasheff about Dry Stout (comparing the big 3 from Ireland Guinness,Beamish, and Murphy's) and giving tips on how best to replicate these styles. In this article, he advocates crushing the roasted Barley (500SRM by the way) into POWDER using a coffee grinder. The mash schedule is like I listed above, though I deviated slightly from his grain bill , his has a lower % flaked barley than mine and more pale malt and higher OG (target 1.041) My target was 1.038 but I hit 1.048 - oh well.... He lists the recipes as "style" rather than Clone..


Gotta run

TD

I used the Extra Stout... just cause I had some... This clone is for the Draught but since I don't have a Nitrogen tap I just primed with DME and it came out great. I have another two bottles souring now and plan to brew another batch of this on Sat.

I love the idea of souring with cans of guinness. my question is, can you sour them and add at bottling time? mostly cause i'm brewing tomorrow, and I just saw you recommend souring beforehand and adding to the boil!! either way, I'm brewing tomorrow. maybe I'll just have to try this next time