Really, ~9 oz DME for priming my Saison?

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JoppaFarms

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Hey all, I have a 5.0 gallon Saison that got up to 78 degrees while fermenting. Northern Brewer's priming sugar calculator says I need like 8.87 oz of DME to prime to a traditional 3.2 volumes.

This seems like a LOT to me and this is the first time I'm using DME to prime. It says it would be equivalent to 6.6 oz corn sugar which seems about right since 5 oz is generally about 2.4 volumes. Makes sense that another 0.8 volumes equates to 1.6 oz corn sugar.

I guess the 9 oz scares me. I don't want bottle bombs!

P.S. the beer has been fermenting in primary for 23 days and is down to 1.004 using 3711.
 
I'm using 3711 now too and am dry hopping with Amarillo hops. I'll be bottling this weekend and I'm just going to use 4 oz of corn sugar. If you've got DME laying around to use then sure but I'd rather just spend the $1.50 and not have to worry about bottle bombs. ESPECIALLY since we both know just how crazy 3711 goes with fermentation.
 
Sorry man, no experience here bottling with 3711, just kegging. But because that yeast is such a crazy fermenter, I would be cautious of using DME to prime. Calculators such as the one you are using assume a certain fermentability (I've seen as low as 55%) of the DME, whereas with corn sugar or cane sugar it is nearly 100%. But the ppg for each of those sugars is different among the calculators too, I often see corn sugar listed as 1.044-46 ppg comparable to sucrose, but due to the moisture content I think it is actually around 1.037.

Is there a reason you are using DME to prime instead of simple sugar? I never used DME for carbing and even went away from corn sugar toward the tail end of my bottling days. Just plain old table sugar, no problems. Just reduce any corn sugar priming amount by %20, and you're good to go. So in this case, I would say go with 5.3 oz of table sugar based on your 6.6 oz of corn sugar.

Using DME seems like too many variables, especially with this yeast that is capable of fermenting that DME more than the typical yeast.
 
I wanted to try something different that simple sugar. Really thats the only reason. Now you've got me quite worried, hope I don't go home to bottle bombs or terrible gushers.
 
Well, it's day 4 after bottling with 8.87 oz DME. I checked a flip top bottle to see where we are at, I know it's early, but I'm worried I over primed. It popped nicely, and then gushed....Not a BAD gush, but a definite gush. I guess 3711 and 8.87 was too much.

I'm trying to figure out what the cause of this is, to determine if it's a real problem and prevent it in the future. Was this caused by:

1) 4 days after bottling, the CO2 isn't even in solution yet
2) Bottle was opened at condition temp (high 70's, low 80's), and CO2 wasn't in solution
3) Too much priming sugar
4) Infection
5) Fermentation wasn't complete
6) Did not cold crash prior to bottling and a LOT of yeast was still in suspension

I'd like to rule out 4 & 5, the beer sat at 1.005 for over a week before bottling and I've yet to have an infection with my current cleaning/sanitizing steps. Infection COULD be a possibility, but unlikely given the large amount of DME I used and how strong 3711 is.

NOW I am really worried about bottle bombs. If I chill it now, will that help prevent bombs? Or do I really need to uncap and recap? I am prepared to uncap, but I would prefer not to because I have custom caps on the bottles and would lose them. Small price to pay, I know, but are there other options?
 
Just to update this thread in case anyone else is watching or has similar questions.

I'm now 10 days after bottling, no bombs. Opened one yesterday after chilling over night, no gushing, solid carbonation for a Saison. Still could benefit from some further conditioning though. Looks like you CAN trust the calculators haha.

image-350633576.jpg
 
Or you could go through the painstaking multiplication and figure it out by inputting the raw numbers without assumptions. Its not astrophysics just a little simple math. Then when you have your sugar weight figured out you do a little more multiplication using the fermentability disclosed by the company that makes your dme.
 
It removes doubt that the calculator is making the correct assumptions your beer. Go ahead and age beer for six months plus and then use a calculator. Chances are it will assume about double your actual residual CO2 and you will end up with much less carb than you anticipated.
 
I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here.

The reason bottle priming (and keg priming) calculators ask for the temperature of the beer is because some of the CO2 that is created during fermentation remains dissolved in the beer. The amount of CO2 that will dissolve in beer depends on the temperature. The colder the beer, the more CO2 remains dissolved at the end of fermentation.

Over a long time, some of that CO2 will dissipate, especially if, say, your beer is sitting somewhere the temperature might rise to 70-80F, and then back down to 50-60F as the seasons change. But even if you store it at the same temperature, some CO2 is likely to dissipate over time.
 
Co2 has a certain level of solubility in beer depending on the temperature of the beer and the pressure its kept at. So for homebrewers who typically don't have pressurized fermentors like professional breweries, will have virtually no pressure on the fermentor. The temperature then will be the real deciding factor as to how much Co2 remains dissolved in the beer. The issue is that the longer you age the beer the more CO2 that escapes the fermentor, especially if it warms up. The standard circulated carb chart from the ASBC for the most part stops at 1.52 volumes assuming a minimum pressure matched with temps.

http://www.zahmnagel.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=HuVGZ8tLaow=&tabid=81

I use this as a nice way to calculate because I tend to brew a lot of long term fermented beers and longer aged beers.

http://hbd.org/brewery/library/YPrimerMH.html

This again only goes so low on the residual CO2 that the beer has because it isn't taking into account the lost Co2 over time. So I tend to make an educated guess based on my experience when I bottle these beers. I will assume somewhere between .3 and .6 volumes of CO2 depending on the length of aging. Then prime accordingly.
 
The reason bottle priming (and keg priming) calculators ask for the temperature of the beer is because some of the CO2 that is created during fermentation remains dissolved in the beer. The amount of CO2 that will dissolve in beer depends on the temperature. The colder the beer, the more CO2 remains dissolved at the end of fermentation.

Right, I think I understand this phenomenon, but isn't that why you put in the temperature into the calculator? Are you saying that even though you put in the temperature (generally understood to use the highest temperature the beer reached during fermentation) it will still incorrectly calculate by using a number that could be about double what the actual residual CO2 is actually in solution? So the temperature still doesn't calibrate it appropriately?
 
Did you use any regular bottles? I have been trying to figure out how many volumes I can use with regular bottles and the answers are all over the board. I am bottling a Saison today and I want to do 3.2 vols. I might just do 2.8 to be safe.
 
Right, I think I understand this phenomenon, but isn't that why you put in the temperature into the calculator? Are you saying that even though you put in the temperature (generally understood to use the highest temperature the beer reached during fermentation) it will still incorrectly calculate by using a number that could be about double what the actual residual CO2 is actually in solution? So the temperature still doesn't calibrate it appropriately?

Yes. Depending on the calculator the lowest some of them will assume is like .7 volumes even with the highest temp (which some have a max temp). So you may still be assuming on the high end and potentially twice the residual carb level. So if you wanted 2.5 volumes and the calculator assumed 1 volume based on temp but you only really had .5 volume because of extended aging when you add your 1.5 volumes worth of priming sugar you'll only end up with 2 volumes which is significant concerning sensory perception of carbonation.

Manually calculating the sugar addition is also useful for non-traditional sources. I had a bunch of Candy Syrup Inc sugar syrup around from winning a contest. I was using it for carbing but it's only 1.032ppg and with pure sucrose being 1.046ppg I'm about 30% lower on sugar because of the water making it a syrup. So I have to add 30% more syrup by weight because of the water component in order to achieve the proper carbonation. You can do this with many different sugar sources like agave or maple syrup. In most cases syrups are nearly completely fermentable. You can easily determine the sugar content by doing a dilution and using a hydrometer. This greatly expands sugar sources for priming if you're willing to do the work.
 
Did you use any regular bottles? I have been trying to figure out how many volumes I can use with regular bottles and the answers are all over the board. I am bottling a Saison today and I want to do 3.2 vols. I might just do 2.8 to be safe.


Yes, I used regular bottles and have had zero bombs. I have had really high carbonation, just like a saison should be. Very bubbly! It's been great.
 
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