Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments

caburdet78 said:

Anyone have any good results with Trappist yeast?

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The White Labs 575 that I posted about in this thread (a few posts up) is a blend of 2 Trappist and 1 Belgian Ale strains. Loved how it turned out. Definitely added some complexity to plain ole juice without actually adding anything other than juice and yeast and a little sugar to get the must to 1.06

Hey, I am new here and new to home brewing in general. This post is an absolutely fantastic wealth of information. After reading this and a few other stickies many times, I have one question: the "vinegary" taste that the original poster described as being noticeable in cider made from pasteurized juice, but NOT prevalent in similar UNpasteurized juice is an effect of what? Is this something that stove-top pasteurization in bottles can prevent? A lot of the posts I've read puts a lot of stock in letting your cider age to the correct taste; is this not the case with ciders made from a pasteurized juice?
It is impossible to get unpasteurized juice where I live, and making a finished product that has taken the better part of a year to finally enjoy is an idea that really interests me. So any clarification on this would be incredibly appreciated. I'm starting my first fermentation this upcoming week! Super excited!

The reason that the all the pasteurized batches went to vinegar was a) I didnt use any preservatives on those batches, b) I wasnt as careful keeping oxygen off them during racking as I could have been and c) it was almost 12 mo later.

The reason that this did not happen with the unpasteruized batches is because up until 3-4 years ago I always added k-meta to unpasteurized juice to kill the wild yeast. The k-meta also acts as a preservative, so a year later none of the ciders had turned.

I dont like the effect that the k-meta has on my cider, so I dont use it, or any preservatives. For unpasteurized juice, this does increase the chance that acetobacter can take hold and turn the cider. Because I rack my ciders a couple times during the crashing process, there is more chance for air to get in, than if you just let it ferment to dry in the same carboy. I give my carboys a shot of CO2 before and during racking so there will always be a blanket of CO2 on the surface of both carboys during the rack. Also fill any headspace with a shot of CO2 after the secondary. That has helped a lot. Also before turning to vinegar, there will usually be a malic acid taste that starts to build. If you sulfite the cider then, that will stop it. Out of 39 kegs last season, 4 started to turn by this summer. Two I caught and sulfited and two went to vinegar.

I have always used S-04, I did a small batch in April with Nottingham. This was a weird mystery blend of sweet cider and I actually like the Notty better than the S-04. Pretty potent and still rather sweet. I did cold crash one month after pitching.

Yeah, its hard to go wrong with Notty. Or if you can find Gervins Ale yeast, its the exact same yeast for a third the price.

I picked up the first juice of the 2012 Season today. Its a mix of Cortland, Grimes Golden, Empire, Gala, Rambo and Jonathan. Its a similar mix to the first pressing of last season. The mouthfeel is not quite as good as what I remembered from last year, but it has the same great aroma, flavor and finish. Sg was 1.054. Unpasteurized, no kmeta, pitched with the following tried and true combos:

(2) Brupaks yeast with half pound of corn sugar and a pound of light turbinado per 6 gallon carboy, to bump the OG to about 1.064
(1) Brupaks yeast with no sugar
(1) Gervins English Ale yeast (AKA Notty) with half pound of corn sugar and a pound of light turbinado
(1) WLP041 with half pound of corn sugar and a pound of light turbinado
(1) Wy3056 with half pound of corn sugar and a pound of light turbinado
(1) Wy3068 with half pound of corn sugar and a pound of light turbinado
(1) Wy3333 with 2.5 lbs of Orange blossom honey

Usually I add sugar to all my first pressing batches because it makes them easier to crash consistently, and stay crashed at room temp if SG is around 1.065. Now that I have a larger fridge, I did one batch of Brupaks with no sugar. I plan to just crash that one and keep it on tap so I dont have to worry about whether it stays stable at room temp.

The Wheat yeasts and WLP041 get blowoff tubes, with carboys filled to 5.5 gal
The ale yeasts use a regular bubbler with carboys filled to 5.75 gal.



One of the handy thing about using better bottles for primaries, is that if you add sugar or honey (which I usually do for early season apples), you can just pour the sugar or honey straight into the carboy, use a #10 gum stopper, and roll them all together on the floor for about 10 min to get however many carboys you have thoroughly dissolved and mixed without a lot of effort

Seven days later and I just crashed the first batch - the Brupaks with no sugar, at 1.011

The first batches of the season always go fast, although the weather has been relatively cool for this time of year. Temps in the basement have ranged from 62 to 70 over the past week, mostly around 64-66. Good thing for the brew balls, or otherwise I would not have checked these until tomorrow, by which time this first batch would likely be completely dry

CvilleKevin, I appreciate all of the hard work replying to us newbees trying our hand at cider. I have been brewing for years, but never tried cider. On a whim, I picked up 2 gallons of pasteurized cider from a local orchard with the intention of trying. I have decided to use light brown sugar and s-05 yeast based off of your generous descriptions on this thread. My questions are 1) Should I transfer to my old Mr. Beer fermenter or keep in the plastic jugs they are in? I have airlocks, but not a way to attach to the tops of the gallons. 2) Most of the information is based on larger batches. What proportions of sugar and yeast should I use to not OD on either? And what temp should I ferment at? 3) I can cold crash easily with only 2 gallons so as I bottle, how much priming sugar should be added and what kind? I am also thinking of leaving half to make warm cider to try and don't need to carbonate. What is the best way to store it? It will not be saved long and I don't need long term storage. I would greatly appreciate any advice you might have! Thanks.

misterme79 (and anyone else thinging about doing gallon batches) -
1) IMHO the easiest thing is to procure a 3rd gallon jug plastic jug and drink whatever is in it over the next few days and use that to crash the two gallons in succession. Get #6 1/2 rubber stoppers to hold the airlocks
2) Use enough sugar to bring the SG up to 1.060 - 1.065. If you dont have a hydrometer, 4oz/gallon is usually about average for early season apples. You can experiment with the sugar since you have 2 gal.
2b) You can split a regular pack of yeast in 2 gallons. To get the best rehydration, pour it in a little at a time and let it sit on the surface of the cider and sink before pouring in more
2b) Ferment at as low temp as you can, ideally 60-65F ambient. Above 70F and it is more likely get stinky and ferment out very quickly.
3)There is no need to add priming sugar when cold crashing. When you cold crash the cider, one of two things will happen:
a) You will successfully remove enough of the yeast and nutrients to prevent a re-ferment. In this case adding priming sugar doesnt do anything but raise the sweetness. You have to use a CO2 tank or cartridge to carb
b) You dont get all of the yeast, either intentionally or not, in which case a ferment will slowly start back and carb the bottles. In that case, you bottle the cider just a little sweeter than you want it to be when you drink it. Just make sure that you fully stop it, either by chilling or pasteurizing before it goes down more than a couple points.

I kegged the batch with Brupaks and no sugar today. Its carbing up now. Its a little raw, but very appley and great finish.

Also crashed 5 other batches - 9 days after pressing / pitching yeast

The two Brupaks batches with sugar, crashed at 1.010 and 1.011, both taste great
Gervins English Ale yeast with sugar, crashed at 1.010 is smoother than the Brupaks with a little less apple
Wy3056 with sugar, crashed at 1.013, smoothier and juicier than the ale yeasts, will probably be next to tap
Wy3068 with sugar, crashed at 1.012. Tastes good, although I should have stopped it earlier

Two batches are still fermenting:
WLP041 with sugar at 1.022, tastes really good, SWMBO likes, and if I had more space in the fridge I would have crashed this one also.
Wy3333 with Orange blossom honey at 1.030, still a little sweet for me but SWMBO likes, will let go to 1.020 or so then crash.

I have been reading many of the posts, and would love to get your insight. I am hosting an apple pressing party and will be fermenting cider for people and want to get it right.
My plan is:
1) Press the apples
2) Sulfite the resulting juice
3) Wait 12-24 hours
4) Ferment with Nottingham Ale yeast
5) Finish the cider (either make it sweet or leave it dry)
6) Keg/Bottle

My Questions:
2) With regards to sulfiting, is waiting 12-24 hours good enough for ale yeast, do they actually have enough resistance to sulfites? And from your experience, how much should I use to make sure i kill any nasties?
5) I have been toying with some ideas, but unfortunately don't have enough time to experiment. One issue I might be facing is tied to lack of space for crash cooling and too many batches, so that might make trying to halt fermentation difficult. However, I was thinking of letting it ferment out to completion, and then back-sweetening either with sugar or with some of the fresh cider we will be pressing. I was wondering what you would suggest: leaving it dry, attempting to halt fermentation, back sweetening with sugar, or back sweetening with juice. (And if I do back-sweeten, how would I go about doing it?)

Any answers, hints, or suggestions on things I have or have not mentioned would be greatly appreciated.

SkiNuke
2) If you sulfite, I'd recommend using half the recommended dosage (dosages listed are typically for wine grapes) and let sit for 24 hours. My experience is that ale yeast is less tolerant of sulfites than wine and champagne yeasts. I stopped using sulfites several years ago. IMHO the cider will taste a lot better without it, and unless you are planning to save it for over 6 months you dont need the preservative effects. Just make sure you do a good job of washing the apples and sanitizing your press and the ale yeast will take care of the rest.
3) You will get more apple taste if you stop the ferment before it dries out. As with beer, there are complex sugars in apple juice which give it a lot of flavor and the yeast will generally get these last. But unlike beer, the yeast WILL eventually get these sugars if you let it. So there is a lot of flavor between 1.005 and 1.000 that you wont get back. All you can add back is sweetness and some body with sugar. As far as what to use for back sweetening, it depends on how it tastes when the juice ferments out. If its dry and mostly flavorless, using the original juice usually works well. If its overly acidic (often the case) you can let it sit for a year and it will mellow (which is what I usually do when I overshoot the ferment on a batch) or you can add stevia, which is an alkaline sweetener. If it tastes good but lacks body, regular sugar works well, if it is a little harsh up front but has a decent finish, agave is good. Best thing is to catch it before the original apple sugar ferments off and avoid the problem. Failing that, try some different sweeteners to see what works best.

Fifteen days after pressing, two batches are in kegs, four have been crashed and two are in the process of crashing.

The Wy3056 and first Brupacks batches are in kegs. The Wy3056 is my favorite, crashed at 1.013. The Brupaks batch is good and has a ton of apple but could probably use another few weeks to smooth out

The two Brupaks batches with sugar finished crashing a few days ago. The GEA (Notty) and 3068 batches finished crashing last night (you can see the condensation on the carboys because they were still cold from the post-crash rack). Of these, I like the GEA the best, it might be next to go on tap. It doesnt have quite as much apple flavor as the Brupaks batches, but is noticeably smoother and very drinkable right now.

I crashed WLP041 a few days ago and Wy3333 last night, both at 1.012, which was lower than what I wanted to go on these. I meant to hit 1.020 on these but temps got hot and time was short at the end of the week. They both taste great to me but are not sweet enough for SWMBO. So I will have to try again with another pressing in a few weeks.

I used 3 gallons of organic apple cider from Aldis. Added a half pound of wheat DME and a half pound of Crystal 60. Started at 1.056. Fermented at 68F with Safbrew S-33. 1.008 72 hours later. 82% attenuation for the S-33 in record time. Nuts. The sample I pulled was quite tart with a sharp apple flavor and slight sweetness. This, like many other men I know, is in theory intended for my wife to drink since she hates all things beer and wine.

Ultra ghetto cheap too. $2 for yeast. $15 for the juice, $4 for the DME and crystal. $7 a gallon for cider.

I back sweetened slighty despite being 72 hours young, and then bottled, let sit for 18 hours and then pasteurized. Totally drinkable at the 72 hour mark and that's no joke. However, quite hazy. I should have cold crashed then backsweetned then bottled. But that's for next time. I just saw all the ciders and went Oh, daddy likes!

CVilleKevin Question - I like the concept of reaching desired FG, racking off yeast to secondary and cold crashing, then after crashing racking into third as a method to try to stop fermentation. What is the recommended temperature to cold crash? I'm running a fermentation chamber that only gets down to 45F so I'm wondering if that is enough of a shock to have a chance of making this method work.

What is the recommended temperature to cold crash? I'm running a fermentation chamber that only gets down to 45F so I'm wondering if that is enough of a shock to have a chance of making this method work.

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jdavisesg - I'd advise getting the temps as cold as you can, the better to shock the yeast. I have my fridge set at 32F. Up until last year I didnt have very good temp control on my fridge and it could get up to 40F, so you are probably good at 45, but I've never tried to do it at this temp. If you can only get to 45F, I'd suggest using Notty, as it floccs consistently. If the crash doesnt take the first time, you can always do it again.

I've been crashing for quite a while, and while I've improved my process a lot, I still have to recrash batches sometimes to keep them stable. Last year I had to re-crash 6 out of 39 batches to get them to stop completely, so batting about 85 percent on the first try, which I hope to improve this year. Based on the batches that I had to crash twice last year, there are a couple other things that I believe are good to keep in mind when crashing:
(1) Make sure the temps drop as quickly as possible, so that the yeast get a quick shock. If you are doing several batches, try to time them so that you can crash them one or two at a time. Ideally you want to get down to terminal temp in a few hours. I can fit up to 8 carboys in my fridge, but I found that if I crash more than 2 or 3 at a time, it will take much longer for the temps to drop and this seems to increase likelihood of a restart after the crash. Having some kegs in the fridge that are already cold helps the temp drop faster, as does blowing a fan on the back of the fridge to get more air on the cooling coils when it is working hard.
(2) Dont leave the carboys in the fridge crashing for too long. I havent noticed any improvement in clarity / sediment drop after 2 days. I will sometimes let them stay in the fridge for up to a week, simply because its easier to deal with them on the weekend. Last year I was feeling lazy at the end of the season and left 4 carboys in the fridge for a month, two of which started back up after a few weeks at room temp. I suspect that what happens is that after the yeast floc, if it sits too long, some of them will eventually migrate back up into the juice where they can be activated if the temps warm back up.

I'm trying 2 gallon batches of hard cider this fall. I have 1 gallon of sweet cider from a local orchard (pasteurized, but no preservatives). No idea what the apple make-up is, but assume it's sweet. I'll have a taste tonight before I start. I'm also planning to pick up 1 gallon of cider from my hobby shop that says it's a blend specifically for hard cider. I assume this means it has some tart apples mixed in. I also assume it's pasteurized since only orchards can sell the live stuff around here.

I'm making both gallons with the Nottingham yeast to compare the difference in juice. My previous attempt at cider used a champagne yeast and it came out way too dry for my taste. The wife likes somewhat sweet cider (Woodchuck, etc). I'm thinking about racking once it hits 1.020 or slightly lower, I guess I'll let taste determine that. If I cold crash after this and rack again, I assume I'll end up with a sweeter hard cider, but flat. If I wanted to give some fizz (I don't have kegs), how would I do this? If I just bottle when I'm at 1.020, I think I'll have bombs. If I bottle lower, I'm thinking it might be too dry. Thoughts?

Also, the hobby shop handed me their recipe which calls for tannin, pectic enzyme, acid blend, ascorbic acid, etc. Necessary? Ever tried this?

seanomac said:

I'm trying 2 gallon batches of hard cider this fall. I have 1 gallon of sweet cider from a local orchard (pasteurized, but no preservatives). No idea what the apple make-up is, but assume it's sweet. I'll have a taste tonight before I start. I'm also planning to pick up 1 gallon of cider from my hobby shop that says it's a blend specifically for hard cider. I assume this means it has some tart apples mixed in. I also assume it's pasteurized since only orchards can sell the live stuff around here.

I'm making both gallons with the Nottingham yeast to compare the difference in juice. My previous attempt at cider used a champagne yeast and it came out way too dry for my taste. The wife likes somewhat sweet cider (Woodchuck, etc). I'm thinking about racking once it hits 1.020 or slightly lower, I guess I'll let taste determine that. If I cold crash after this and rack again, I assume I'll end up with a sweeter hard cider, but flat. If I wanted to give some fizz (I don't have kegs), how would I do this? If I just bottle when I'm at 1.020, I think I'll have bombs. If I bottle lower, I'm thinking it might be too dry. Thoughts?

Also, the hobby shop handed me their recipe which calls for tannin, pectic enzyme, acid blend, ascorbic acid, etc. Necessary? Ever tried this?

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I wouldn't bother with any additives, especially since you say want to see what the different juices taste like as hard cider. If the tart/bitter juice is actually tart/bitter, it will give you a good idea of what you, and more importantly she, likes when compared to the sweet juice. However, if you are sure you like a tart and/or bitter hard cider, adding some acid or tannin will make up for what sweet juice lacks.

You aren't doing much cider so sampling, even for OG, is going to cost you, unless you are using a refractometer. A refractometer makes SG check samples much smaller (only a few drops), though later readings have to be adjusted for alcohol. I would just pull small taste samples/sips, after day 4 or so, and stop it when it hits the right sweetness. Don't forget to keep temps under control. Low 60s (actual cider temp) is good, and a water bath is an easy method to acheive it.

As for bottling/carbing, if you plan on drinking it fairly quickly, just use 1 liter PET soda bottles. Add the proper amount of sugar, then refrigerate after they become 'soda hard'. They should be safe in the fridge for a few months. PET bottles can handle at least 60 psi, which is higher than your cider should reach at fridge temps even if it fermented out somehow.

CvilleKevin said:

jdavisesg - I'd advise getting the temps as cold as you can, the better to shock the yeast. I have my fridge set at 32F. Up until last year I didnt have very good temp control on my fridge and it could get up to 40F, so you are probably good at 45, but I've never tried to do it at this temp. If you can only get to 45F, I'd suggest using Notty, as it floccs consistently. If the crash doesnt take the first time, you can always do it again.

I've been crashing for quite a while, and while I've improved my process a lot, I still have to recrash batches sometimes to keep them stable. Last year I had to re-crash 6 out of 39 batches to get them to stop completely, so batting about 85 percent on the first try, which I hope to improve this year. Based on the batches that I had to crash twice last year, there are a couple other things that I believe are good to keep in mind when crashing:
(1) Make sure the temps drop as quickly as possible, so that the yeast get a quick shock. If you are doing several batches, try to time them so that you can crash them one or two at a time. Ideally you want to get down to terminal temp in a few hours. I can fit up to 8 carboys in my fridge, but I found that if I crash more than 2 or 3 at a time, it will take much longer for the temps to drop and this seems to increase likelihood of a restart after the crash. Having some kegs in the fridge that are already cold helps the temp drop faster, as does blowing a fan on the back of the fridge to get more air on the cooling coils when it is working hard.
(2) Dont leave the carboys in the fridge crashing for too long. I havent noticed any improvement in clarity / sediment drop after 2 days. I will sometimes let them stay in the fridge for up to a week, simply because its easier to deal with them on the weekend. Last year I was feeling lazy at the end of the season and left 4 carboys in the fridge for a month, two of which started back up after a few weeks at room temp. I suspect that what happens is that after the yeast floc, if it sits too long, some of them will eventually migrate back up into the juice where they can be activated if the temps warm back up.

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Since you are running these experiments, is it possible to determine the difference in taste between cold crashing at precisely the right FG.. versus back sweetening to that FG using the original juice? I think a lot of us are wondering if back sweetening is preferable versus finding the right day to cold crash.

Also I think the dryness experiment may be somewhat limited by precisely when you are drinking the cider. A dry cider (or cyser) becomes a whole lot better after 1+ years, so let's compare apples to apples (ha!)

WOW! Thanks for all the great info! I've poured over it for a few hours and hope I've absorbed a little of it. I'd like to share what I'm doing right now and ask for any suggestions. I bought 5 gallons of freshly pressed, unpasturized cider from the nearest orchard (about 90 minutes from me). The cider tasted good, although I would rather it have a little more tartness. The guy running the show at the time did not know what apples were used. My options were limitied, so I took what I could get. Once at home I added 3 lbs of orange blossum honey to bring the gravity up to 1.065. I then pitched my Safale 05 and had good fermentation in 12 hours. Since I live in a smallish house with no basement or garage, my only real option was sitting the carboy on the kitchen counter covered with my lucky U2 concert shirt! The house temp stays about 70-75 degrees, which I know is a bit warmer than optimum...but the family won't permit me to chill the whole house down. After exactly 7 days (today) the gravity has dropped to 1.038 and tasted ok but a bit thin. Since I have no place to cold crash it (save for maybe an outdoor ice bath) my plan is to use sorbate and sulfite it at around 1.02 since I'd like to keep it a little sweeter. I'm wondering if I could use my home juice extractor to get some nice tart flavor from some winesaps after fermentation and then add the preservatives to prevent bottle bombs. The extractor isn't efficient enough to get a large volume of juice, but maybe enough to add some extra body and flavor? This is my second attempt at cider, and my first try several years ago was dismal. Lessons learned and research done, I'm trying again! Any suggestions or reassurance would be helpful!

is it possible to determine the difference in taste between cold crashing at precisely the right FG.. versus back sweetening to that FG using the original juice?

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Absolutely. Its like the difference between a glass of wine vs a glass of sugar wash with some grape juice added back in for flavor. The taste is more complex, there is a lot more tannin, and no sticky finish (unless you crash really high). If you start with a good juice mix, there is a lot of taste in the more complex apple sugars which get fermented off last. If you crashed a batch at 1.010 and backsweetened to 1.020, it would hard to tell the difference from a batch that was crashed at 1.020, because above 1.010, its mostly just simple sugars. But letting a batch go to 1.000 and backsweetening tastes nothing like a batch that was crashed at 1.010.

I think a lot of us are wondering if back sweetening is preferable versus finding the right day to cold crash.

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That really depends on what you are going for. Its certainly easier to just backsweeten. Before I found out about using ale yeast, I would use mostly Lalvin 1118, ferment it dry, and then backsweeten with juice at about a 1:4 mix for parties. That works fine for party fuel, especially since this method is a fraction of the time and cost for making a keg of beer, but is not stable at room temp and even if it was, its just not something I'd want to drink on a regular basis. For me, cold crashing changed hard cider from being a cheap way to make the beer last longer to something that I really enjoy drinking.

I still back sweeten occasionally. I havent done it in a while, but I probably will soon because I have more dry kegs then I really want left over from last season and I'll need some more empties soon. So at the next party opportunity, I will probably sweeten a few of these up so I can get the kegs emptied. Will I be able to get them to taste anywhere as good to what I now have on tap? Not likely. Can I get them to the point where they will float first at a party? Probably. For that, I'd just need to bring them up to about 1.020 and dont tap anything else that is above 1.010.

I'm wondering if I could use my home juice extractor to get some nice tart flavor from some winesaps after fermentation and then add the preservatives to prevent bottle bombs.

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You could do this, although it might be more work than necessary. As more of the sugars ferment off, you will get more of the tartness back. Whether or not its enough to balance the mix is TBD. The honey has more perceived sweetness when it ferments off, so you may be able to get below 1.020 and still have it taste sweet enough. Keep tasting it as it ferments and if it tastes like the sweetness is dropping below what you are looking for, but it still doesnt have much bite, then you can add some more acidic juice - but it may not be needed.

I'm not sure if this has been asked, but what about cold crashing in a chest freezer for a few hours. Would this be okay? I hope so, because I just put a carboy in my freezer!!!

what about cold crashing in a chest freezer for a few hours. Would this be okay?

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I'm not sure. It depends on the yeast and juice as to whether enough of the yeast will floc before it freezes

For those batches that you are cold crashing around 1.010 and kegging, how long do they stay fresh in the keg at fridge temps (i.e. what is the shelf life of these quick not fully fermented batches in the keg)?

Hi guys,
I just finished going through this thread and it is quite detailed. As a scientist this thread is quite awesome and it inspired me to start brewing with cider rather than beer. I also made the mistake of not finishing this thread before starting though. I went out to my LHBS on 10/7 and got a 6.5 gallon bucket starter equipment kit and then got the bucket filled at the orchard that is close by (no idea on the blend of apples) and picked up two 1 gallon jugs of it. The recipe I'm following is long term:

6.5 gallons unpaseurized cider (og was 1.05)
6 lbs brown sugar
1/4 tsp pectinase
2 tbsp yeast nutrient
lalvin 71B-1122 packet

It calls for 1 month in secondary and then racking into a tertiary for 2-3 months, then aging another 1-2 months bottled. I ran into some bumps though. I didn't mix the cider/sugar well enough and then pitched the yeast into 55-60 degree cider. I also rehydrated the yeast in 90 degree water and let it cool to 70 before pitching. There has been very little airlock activity and I'm mildly worried that the yeasts are competing/the pitched yeast is dead.

I also had to take one of the gallons and pitch yeast into it, as my refrigerator was not cold enough to cold crash and the gallon was beginning to bulge. I used Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast and just pitched in half the pack, some yeast nutrient and 1/8 tsp pectinase. It is bubbling merrily and has a great aroma. I like dry so I'm debating just letting it get down to 1.010-1.015 and then cold-crashing and bottling. I am trying to do still ciders.

The environment is around 60-68 degrees depending upon if SWMBO decides to turn on the heat (living in a second floor flat).

I know that you and mostly everyone who has posted so far uses ale yeasts to great success for short term results. Is it possible to achieve that with champagne/wine yeasts or do they really need the time so mellow out? Has anyone tried using the oak balls/spirals in their cider for their secondary? I have been debating getting chunks of rum barrels from a buddy to try this with .

For those batches that you are cold crashing around 1.010 and kegging, how long do they stay fresh in the keg at fridge temps (i.e. what is the shelf life of these quick not fully fermented batches in the keg)?

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I cold crash all of them. Some I keg right away, most I rack back to 5 gallon carboys and let them sit for another month or so at room temp, in order to make sure that they are stable. Then I'll keg them. Most of the kegs get stored at room temp. Once they go in the fridge, they are usually consumed within a month or two. Because I dont use any sulfites or preservatives, the shelf life of the room temp kegs is generally 9-18 months.

Is it possible to achieve that with champagne/wine yeasts or do they really need the time so mellow out?

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champagne and wine yeasts generally do not crash as well. The yeast tends not to floc. You might have better luck with your single gallon. For some reason, I've had better luck crashing single gallons with yeasts that turned out to be difficult to crash in larger volumes (wine and lager yeasts) I suspect that the smaller volume and greater surface area / volume results in a faster crash which takes hold better.

Has anyone tried using the oak balls/spirals in their cider for their secondary?

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I havent tried this, but will probably experiment with this on some single gallons this year. I have a friend who ferments in old bourbon barrels and it tastes great.

CvilleKevin -Great thread!

I picked up 5 gallons of "No No" from a local orchard - Soergels. Decided to go with Notty and 1.5 lbs of Dark Brown Sugar - Kinda of going for the caramel taste.

Pitched last Friday, OG @ 1.060 . After three days, it was at 1.040, 4 days at 1.030, 6 days at 1.025. Temps around 68. I guess I'll check again in two days, hoping to crash around 1.008 - 1.010.

I see you use Better Bottles a lot. What is your process for cleaning / sanitizing those if you don't mind me asking? I have heard that using a carboy brush on the inside of those can leave scratches. I have some glass carboys but opted to do the primary in a plastic fermenter bucket due to ease of mixing the sugar in (I didn't feel safe rolling glass carboys around on the ground to get the sugar mixed in).

Do you use a hydro or a refractometer for your OG readings? (I know that refracs aren't really reliable without correction charts for post-fermentation readings)

I see you use Better Bottles a lot. What is your process for cleaning / sanitizing those if you don't mind me asking?

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When I finish using BBs I rinse them clean and then clean them with One Step (oxygen cleaner). I mix about a gallon, put 1/4 to 1/2 gallon in each, rubber stopper in the end and then shake them two at a time like dumbells for a couple minutes. Then when I go to use them again, I sanitize with Star San (acid sanitizer). I just roll the solution around in the carboy for a couple minutes and dont shake much, or else it will foam up a lot. Then I rinse with hot water and let dry. During cider season I set my hot water heater to 150, so I can be sure that everthing coming from the hot water tap is sterile.

Also - I'm pretty anal about keeping everything around my fermentation area really clean. I wash the area down with bleach on a regular basis. I havent got an infection in years (knock on wood), but both times when I did, I found nearby sources of mold (once under the fridge, and once in a glass of beer that somehow got left in a corner after a party). So I try to make sure that never happens again. It also makes my GF more supportive of my brewing antics, since I always start by cleaning the heck out of everything.

I have heard that using a carboy brush on the inside of those can leave scratches.

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I'll use a brush sometimes if there is a lot of grunge that wont come off. The main thing is to be careful that the stiff wire in the brush doesnt scrape against the sides of the BBs, just the bristles

Do you use a hydro or a refractometer for your OG readings?

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hydro

CvilleKevin said:

Then when I go to use them again, I sanitize with Star San (acid sanitizer). I just roll the solution around in the carboy for a couple minutes and dont shake much, or else it will foam up a lot. Then I rinse with hot water and let dry. During cider season I set my hot water heater to 150, so I can be sure that everthing coming from the hot water tap is sterile.

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There isn't any reason to rinse with hot water after star-san'ing. It also quits working once it is dry, so drying also isn't needed. For pre-ferment, the yeast will use any residue as a nutrient. For finished cider/beer, there is almost no flavor to star-san- certainly not at the levels introduced by any residual film/foam.

If your water is truly sterile coming out of the water heater, there is no harm in rinsing, but it is an unnecessary step. However, many things sporulate, which are not killed even by boiling. I believe Star-san still gets those, but not sure.

RE: foam- some guys actually like the foam, and pour into the fermenter using the foam like an airlock. I do like you, letting the star-san coat the insides without shaking/foaming, but also don't worry about a bit of foam if it happens when spraying it in with a spray bottle.

CvilleKevin said:

I'll use a brush sometimes if there is a lot of grunge that wont come off. The main thing is to be careful that the stiff wire in the brush doesnt scrape against the sides of the BBs, just the bristles

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Filling up to the brim with water or oxyclean for a few days will remove most residue, and using a soft wash rag inside while shaking will usually get anything else. I believe that is the BB endorsed method. Keg cleaners with the fountains/spouts work as well.

As an FYI, don't overdose on the oxy/pbw, or let it sit in powdered form on the bottom. There have been a number of cases of the bottoms cracking out of BB, and this was determined as the cause. The locally concentrated area is enough to cause the plastic to crack.

CvilleKevin said:

hydro

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If you keep notes on what the refractometer read, and what the hydrometer reading or perceived flavor was, you can use the refractometer as a fairly accurate check on what the FG/flavor will be.

There are some fairly sophisticated tables/equations for doing this with beer, but I think they may not be accurate enough for use with cider, at least without some corrections.

There isn't any reason to rinse with hot water after star-san'ing. It also quits working once it is dry, so drying also isn't needed.

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Yeah, I've heard the whole 'dont fear the foam' pitch by Star San and I know plenty of guys who dont rinse it out - but I do it anyway, mostly because I just dont want any unnecessary chemicals in my brew. So yeah, that last rinse step is mostly just personal preference.

Filling up to the brim with water or oxyclean for a few days will remove most residue, and using a soft wash rag inside while shaking will usually get anything else. I believe that is the BB endorsed method

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I might try the soft rag method, but I havent really had any issues with using a bottle brush. My oldest BBs are 6yrs old and starting to get a little yellow, but no scratches and still smell fresh after cleaning. The only problem I've ever had with a BB was that I used to set the hot water at 160 during cider season. THAT will warp a BB.

I just cold crashed 1 keg at 1.008 and 1 keg at 1.010. My plan is to let them sit there for a few days, transfer them to a new keg each and then add campden and sorbate to officially halt the fermentation. I plan on carbing with CO2 and bottling these, then giving about 5 gallons out to friends and I would hate for them to go boom. Any thoughts on using a combined cold-crash/sorbate method? I have never used sorbate before since I am a beer guy so I don't really know what to expect.

Any thoughts on using a combined cold-crash/sorbate method?

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If you used ale yeast, I would expect that to be effective. Sorbate does impart a noticeable taste, which is why I dont use use, although some people are OK with the taste. Before adding sorbate to your kegs, I would advise that you first mix a small amount of your cider with small amount of sorbate to see how the taste works for you. To me it has more of a root beer taste than for cider, but with different juice YMMV. I could see it maybe working in a spiced cider. If the keg you are keeping stays cold, then you dont need to add sorbate to that batch - the cold will keep it stable.

I picked up another batch of juice yesterday. Between myself and friends, we got 175 gallons. The mix was Stayman, Empire, and Winesap. Its a good blend, nice aroma, decent sweetness with some spice up front and a nice mouthfeel. Tart finish. Sg was 1.052, although it tastes sweeter. Unpasteurized, no kmeta, pitched with some minor variations on what I made last month:

Brupaks yeast with half pound of corn sugar and a pound of light turbinado
Brupaks yeast with 12oz of corn sugar and 24oz of light turbinado
Wy3056 with half pound of corn sugar and a pound of light turbinado
Wy3056 with 12oz of corn sugar and 24oz of light turbinado
Gervins English Ale yeast (AKA Notty) with half pound of corn sugar and a pound of light turbinado
WLP041 with half pound of corn sugar and a pound of light turbinado
Wy3333 with 2 lbs of Orange blossom honey
S04 with 2 lbs of Wildflower honey.

For this round, I did 2 Brupaks and 2 Wy3056 batches. I used slightly different amounts of sugar so that I wont have to crash them all too close together

The four carboys on the back left are from the first pressing. They all got nice and clear on the crash. I'll let them sit and clear for a couple more weeks to make sure that they are stable and then keg them.

The other 4 batches from the first pressing are kegged and on tap. In retrospect, I wish I hadnt done that one batch of Brupaks without the added sugar. Its got a ton of apple flavor but still a little raw tasting after a couple weeks, whereas the two Brupaks batches still sitting in the carboys taste great. Unless it changes a lot this week, I'll probably add a little agave to it to take the edge off it and take it to a party this weekend.

Has anyone tried White Labs liquid 007 English cider yeast? Sounds tempting, but I've only used Notty, S04, and montrachet so far. Wondering what flavor profile it produces.

I never tried WLP007. Supposedly it is a more attenuative version of WLP002, so basically a dryer, faster fermenting version of Notty. The White Labs cider yeast is 775. Its OK for a dry cider. IMHO the WLP ale and wheat yeasts give you more interesting flavor profiles.

How hard is it to halt a ferment from 1.06 to 1.01 using EC-1118 when cold crashing? I was looking at this yeast because of it's supposedly neutral taste and low H2S production (pretty scared of gettin the rhino farts), but I hear it moves like a freight train and strips flavor pretty fast. Is that true? I saw in your first post that you mentioned keeping an eye on it, but I'm just wondering if I would have any problems with it if I checked it regularly. Also, does it clear pretty decently?

EC-1118 is a champagne yeast, which does not crash well. Use an ale yeast if you want to stop at 1.010. If you keep the temps cool - ideally 60F, you wont get much H2S production

S-04 it is then! After posting this I looked back at my notes and saw that I used 1118 on a strawberry wine and had a hell of a time crashing it. Temp control is going to be difficult though, I have the choice of either putting it in the outdoor shed and hoping it doesn't get too cold and start molding on me, or freezing my ass in my bedroom keeping the thermostat at 65, having no garage or basement.

My first attempt at cider, and was wondering if someone could help me get back on track?

I've been reading a lot here and feel I have confused myself at this point.

I have 5 gallons of fresh (However, I did use campden tablets, peptic enzyme and yeast nutrient), cider currently in primary with Nottingham ale yeast with a starting gravity of 1.058. I'd like to ferment, NOT back sweeten (I really would like to maintain the natural apple flavor), bottle condition and pasteurize.

1) Is it possible to rack to secondary and hold at a specific gravity/sweetness (shooting for 1.015), or will it continue to ferment to dry? Is secondary absolutely necessary for cider?

2) Is cold crashing something I would want to consider having used peptic enzyme? If I was to cold crash, would I be able to bring the cider back to room temperature, prime with a couple ounces of dextrose for bottle conditioning and then pasteurize.

Thanks for your thoughts!

1) Is it possible to rack to secondary and hold at a specific gravity/sweetness (shooting for 1.015), or will it continue to ferment to dry?

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If you cold crash, you can generally stop the fermentation, although adding yeast nutrient will make it harder to crash. Just racking alone will usually not halt the fermentation, although it sometimes can.

Is secondary absolutely necessary for cider?

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No, it depends on your process.

2) Is cold crashing something I would want to consider having used peptic enzyme? If I was to cold crash, would I be able to bring the cider back to room temperature, prime with a couple ounces of dextrose for bottle conditioning and then pasteurize.

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Given that you added pectic enzyme and nutrient, I would expect that cold crashing is going to be less likely to completely stop the fermentation, in which case you could prime, bottle and pasteurize. The fermentation should slow way down after the crash, and there is a chance it could stop completely, but most likely enough yeast will survive to bottle condition.