Steam Injected Mash System

The corny didn't tank. As a matter of fact, I think it will work. And the pressure cooker works on exactly the same principle. I have both, I guess I could use either.

I'll be testing a 3rd steam system in the near future. Lets see how that goes and then assess whether we want to use the corny or the pressure cooker.

And none of the parts that I bought for the corny will be wasted. I can use them on other projects. As a matter of fact, not even the corny is wasted. All I need is a new lid and its ready to use for another project I have in mind.

Did you get the automation part of your system up and running? I would really love to see this up and running. I am really interested in the corney version of this for no other reason than space. Vertical is easier to deal with than horizontal. Keep us updated, I am really excited about this. I want a system that has the potential of control that you describe.

The herms and rims systems have a lot to do with moving parts I like the idea of reducing that.

Thanks

JOHN

Did you get the automation part of your system up and running? I would really love to see this up and running.

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I haven't had time to work on anything. The corny got done and there it sits. I decided to do a few test brews because if I wait for my brew system to get done, I won't be brewing until spring.

I am really interested in the corney version of this for no other reason than space. Vertical is easier to deal with than horizontal. Keep us updated, I am really excited about this. I want a system that has the potential of control that you describe.

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OK. Well the corny is built and you are right that it is actually more compact and easily positioned. The control system is the same for both, so maybe I'll start with the corny boiler.

The herms and rims systems have a lot to do with moving parts I like the idea of reducing that.

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Me too !

so quick question....

And I am sure that if I did a little digging I could find the answer myself but since we have this thread.....


How do you go about adjusting the Mash temp with the steam injection without the automation? Do you just open a valve and close it when the temp is reached or what? And if you do how do you protect from over shooting?


I WANT TO DO THIS!!!!!!!!!

knowing my luck I will build a steam generator and blow a hole in the garage of the house I am renting or worse yet blow a hole in my duplex neighbors shining new Scion box!


Thanks

John

How do you go about adjusting the Mash temp with the steam injection without the automation? Do you just open a valve and close it when the temp is reached or what?

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Yes. My first runs will be non automated.

And if you do how do you protect from over shooting?

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Stir, watch the temp and turn the valve off ! Unlike other heat sources, this one should have very little overshoot. When you turn the valve off the heating stops.

knowing my luck I will build a steam generator and blow a hole in the garage of the house I am renting or worse yet blow a hole in my duplex neighbors shining new Scion box!

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As long as your relief valve works and you pressure test it to 30 PSI there is zero chance of anything like that happening.

Here is a little write up on the second mash session with the pressure cooker.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=23127

FWIW, I really like the pressure relief on the pressure cooker. I think I'll contact the manufacturer and buy another one for my corny keg, once I know it works. It screws into a 1/8" NPT hole.

Someone check my math (and keep in mind that I'm not much of a physicist or thermodynamics guy):

Let's say I have a 240V 6000W heating element, and I plug it into a 120V source. Applying Ohm's law, I now have a 1500W element operating with a current draw of 12.5A. Correct?

If I want to heat 4 gallons of water (roughly 15kg) from 65 to 240 degrees F, it would require about 6MJ of energy (15kg x 4.18 J/g C x 97 degrees C), or 1667 Watt hours.

So, with my 1500W element, it would take a little over an hour to heat my water. Correct?

Of course, I could significantly reduce that time by bringing the water to near boiling before starting the process...I just wanted to see if I was doing the math correctly.

Thats about right, except I am not sure about the 4.18 J/gC. Does that number include the liquid to steam phase change ? Heating water takes 1 btu/lb/F, until you do a phase change. Then it jumps way up. I don't have a table in front of me to check your 4.18J/gC.

4.18 is just the specific heat of liquid water. As long as it's under pressure, the phase change shouldn't occur, right?

I guess my whole point here is that I want to operate a steam mashing system similar to yours on a standard 15A circuit, and the math seems to support it, though the initial heating may take a while unless I help it out a little.

If you keep it under pressure and the phase change doesn't occur then you are right. But then the specific heat changes a bit. Not much if I recall, but a bit. This is what steam tables are for. Its easier to find a steam table and use it.

Sounds good - I know I'm operating under a few assumptions, but I don't think they're gross.

Yeah, I think you are right. Its close enough for what you/we are doing.

The easy part is heating the water from 60-212, this only takes 162 BTU's/lb, hard part is adding another 970 BTU's/lb to make steam at 212 deg F.. Having built and operated a steam injection system, it takes the equivalent of 4-6Kw to produce enough steam to make step mashing work in a 10 minute step from 125-152 deg with 3.25 gallons water and 11 lbs grain.

kladue said:

The easy part is heating the water from 60-212, this only takes 162 BTU's/lb, hard part is adding another 970 BTU's/lb to make steam at 212 deg F.. Having built and operated a steam injection system, it takes the equivalent of 4-6Kw to produce enough steam to make step mashing work in a 10 minute step from 125-152 deg with 3.25 gallons water and 11 lbs grain.

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Please describe the physics of this. I'm planning on putting the system under pressure so that the water will remain liquid all the way to 240 degrees F (just like brewman's corny system). I don't understand why relieving the pressure to vent some steam into the mash would drop the overall temperature of the system enough to warrant the addition of so much energy...

The thermodynamics of this is all in my threads. Search and you shall find. Or just follow the links.

The easy part is heating the water from 60-212, this only takes 162 BTU's/lb, hard part is adding another 970 BTU's/lb to make steam at 212 deg F.. Having built and operated a steam injection system, it takes the equivalent of 4-6Kw to produce enough steam to make step mashing work in a 10 minute step from 125-152 deg with 3.25 gallons water and 11 lbs grain.

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3.25 x 8.333 + 11 = 38 pounds of material. Assume a heat capacitance of 1 btu/lb/F, which is high because the heat capacitance of the grain is much lower.

deltaT = 27F Energy = 27 x 38 x 1btu/F/lb = 1026 btus. To do that in 10 minutes would be 1026 /10 min/60 min/hr = 6156 btu/hr. 1KwHr = 3412 btu/hr.

So, power = 6156/3412 = 1.80 KW.

Now the thing to remember is that saturated water at 15PSI stores a ton of energy. When you open the valve on your pressure vessel the energy release is incredible, above and beyond how much heat power you have generating steam directly.

If you don't believe this, get a pressure canner, fill it mostly up with water, heat it until you are making steam at 15PSI, turn off the burner and then open the valve and let the steam blow. Like I said, the calcs are in my previous post. I'll answer general type questions here, but I won't repeat the calcs.

brewman ! said:

Now the thing to remember is that saturated water at 15PSI stores a ton of energy. When you open the valve on your pressure vessel the energy release is incredible, above and beyond how much heat power you have generating steam directly.

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This is exactly what I'm getting at - once I have 4 gallons of superheated water, I should think there is enough stored energy to complete a 15 gallon mash without any major "recovery time" between steam cycles. Do I have the concept correct, or do I need to re-visit all the theory?

I don't understand why relieving the pressure to vent some steam into the mash would drop the overall temperature of the system enough to warrant the addition of so much energy...

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I don't understand the question.

If you have saturated water at 240F, it needs to be at 15ish PSI to keep it being water. When you open the valve the pressure drops to 0 PSI and the water turns to steam. Its just like if you open the radiator cap on a hot engine. The coolant boils off because the pressure isn't enough to keep it water. It flashes to steam.

Each pound of water loses 240-212 = 28F = 28 BTU. Each gallon loses 8.33 x 28 = 233 btu. A 5 gallon canner will "lose" 1166 btu, which gets supplied to the mash in the form of steam. 1166 btu is enough to heat the mash in the previous example all by itself.

Furthermore, the steam can be released as fast as you want to open the valve. Lets say it is released in 5 minutes. 1166/5x60 = 14,000 btu/hour, which is the equivalent of 4KW.

The math is in post #11 of Thread #1.

kladue said:

the hard part is adding another 970 BTU's/lb to make steam at 212 deg F

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This is the part that confused me...I didn't think so much energy would be required as long as I was heating liquid water and not steam. I suppose I mis-stated my response the first time.

Yuri_Rage said:

This is the part that confused me...I didn't think so much energy would be required as long as I was heating liquid water and not steam. I suppose I mis-stated my response the first time.

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You aren't making steam at 240F. It will all be hot water. There might be an ounce of steam and 40 pounds of hot water.

But that water turns to steam at a lower temperature and pressure when you open the valve.

It goes from hot water to steam only when the valve is opened. The *weight* of steam you make is small. Not much water vapour gets pushed into the mash. But the btus are high.

See, you can have 2 things at 240F. You can have enough pressure to keep everything water, which is what we are doing. Or you could have atmospheric pressure and then everything would be steam. To do that for 5 gallons x 8.33 pounds = 41.65 would take a TON of energy and also a very, very big vessel because steam isn't very dense.

Does that make sense ?

brewman ! said:

You are right. You aren't making a lot of steam at 240F. It will all be hot water. But that water turns to steam at a lower temperature and pressure when you open the valve.

It goes from hot water to steam only when the valve is opened. The *weight* of steam you make is small. Not much water vapour gets pushed into the mash. But the btus are high.

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Alright - I have the theory correct. kladue's response threw a curve at me, but I've got the overall concept. I'm confident that I can successfully run a steam injection system on a 15A power supply.

The heating element is already on its way, and I have a spare Ranco ETC-111000 waiting to be put to use!

I might have confused you when I said you have to consider the phase change because it wasn't clear to me if you were talking about making steam at 240F or making hot water at 240F. If you are doing things like me, you are making hot water at 240F. It converts to steam at 212 F when the valve is opened.

What are you going to use for a vessel ?

brewman ! said:

I might have confused you when I said you have to consider the phase change because it wasn't clear to me if you were talking about making steam at 240F or making hot water at 240F. If you are doing things like me, you are making hot water at 240F. It converts to steam at 212 F when the valve is opened.

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Exactly! All this talk of heating steam isn't really necessary - that's not what we're doing! (for the most part)

brewman ! said:

Right, at 240F. But we *ARE* making steam at 212 when the valve is opened. But one doesn't really need to calculate that because the equilibrium situation after all the steam has blown of will be hot water at 212F.

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Got it! That was a lot of typing tonight for a rather simple concept in the end. Hope I didn't confuse anyone more than I did myself.

Right, at 240F. But we *ARE* making steam at 212 when the valve is opened. But one doesn't really need to calculate that because the equilibrium situation after all the steam has blown of will be hot water at 212F.

brewman ! said:

What are you going to use for a vessel ?

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I have some single handle corny kegs that should work nicely. I can TIG weld, wire, sweat pipe, etc, etc. I'll be sure to use a pressure relief valve in the system. All of the cutting and welding will be in the lid of the keg where I'll least affect the structural integrity of it.

This statement "the hard part is adding another 970 BTU's/lb to make steam at 212 deg F" gives us a clue as to how much steam we are actually making. In K's example, we needed 1026 BTUs to heat the mash. At 970 BTU per pound, that's only a bit more than *ONE* pound of steam. So what happens is our 240F hot water flashes off to steam until it reaches equilibrium at 212F, in the process making a pound or so of steam. The rest of the 5 gallons, 40ish pounds, stays as hot water.

I have some single handle corny kegs that should work nicely. I can TIG weld, wire, sweat pipe, etc, etc. I'll be sure to use a pressure relief valve in the system. All of the cutting and welding will be in the lid of the keg where I'll least affect the structural integrity of it.

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Pressure test with cold water (NOT AIR) to 3x the working pressure of your vessel (15x3 = 45 PSI) and don't apply a direct flame to the vessel. Make sure the pressure relief works under all conditions too.

brewman ! said:

This statement "the hard part is adding another 970 BTU's/lb to make steam at 212 deg F" gives us a clue as to how much steam we are actually making.

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I finally wrapped my brain around that as well. I was thinking of it completely backwards when I first read the post (as in, I have to add that much energy to the existing super-hot water after I vent some steam). Now I understand that if we were only making steam at 212 degrees, it would take a TON of energy to vent enough into the mash to make a difference. Fortunately, the "pressure cooker" effect is on our side.

Right ! It does take a bit to get ones head around it.

40 pounds of STEAM (not hot water) at 240F and just under 15PSI would take a huge vessel ! Steam is very light.

Now I understand that if we were only making steam at 212 degrees, it would take a TON of energy to vent enough into the mash to make a difference

It would actually take the same energy either way. It would take a ton of energy PER POUND, but the number of pounds would be small, like a little over one pound.

The reason one uses hot water like that is so the vessel stores as much energy as it can so when you open the valve everything heats up quickly.

When I open the valve on my pressure cooker, the steam comes out of the hose like air out of an air hose. Steam is very light. And it stays as a gas (vapor) well into the mash. It bubbles the mash pretty good.

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Awesome. It's bedtime. Thanks for the patience.

No problem Yuri. Let us know how you make out. Pictures too !

One other thing to consider is that the superheated water expands roughly 1400 times the volume of water involved when it flashes to steam. Contemplate the results of heating 4-5 gallons of water to 240 degrees and having a pressure vessel rupture while you were in the area.

Its standard boiler practice to test at 2x working pressure. Me saying 3x is just adding a safety factor. As long as a flame isn't used on the vessel, the temperature of the steel/materials stays low enough that metalurgical effects don't need to be considered.

If you are really worried about your vessel, buy a pressure cooker.

Its standard boiler practice to test at 2x working pressure. Me saying 3x is just adding a safety factor. If it doesn't leak at 3x the working pressure, it isn't going to burst at the working pressure.

As long as a flame isn't used on the vessel, the temperature of the steel/materials stays low enough that metalurgical effects don't need to be considered.

If you are really worried about your vessel, buy a pressure cooker.

So I'm considering this... I have access to a 40 quart pressure cooker that could be repurposed exclusively for this project. From what I'm reading, that should be plenty big for 10 gallon batches.

I'm thinking about tee'ing off the steam with two solenoids connected to a pair of Rancos. One for the mash tun, the other for the HLT.

The biggest unknown to me is maintaining the pressure in the pressure cooker. I'd like to be able to automate that as well as use propane to heat it. Does Ranco or any other manufacturers have a model with setpoints above 220?

I guess the water in the pressure cooker should be really high quality? Since all the impurities will be boiled off into the steam?

For the boiler use a pressure switch to operate the heat source, steam boilers typically use pressure switches with a 3-5 psi deadband. Using temperature might get to be exciting on first warmup as the dissolved air in the water would make pressure rise faster than expected.

kladue said:

For the boiler use a pressure switch to operate the heat source, steam boilers typically use pressure switches with a 3-5 psi deadband. Using temperature might get to be exciting on first warmup as the dissolved air in the water would make pressure rise faster than expected.

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I like that suggestion...and I just noticed that my Ranco only goes to 220 degrees anyway.

Using temperature might get to be exciting on first warmup as the dissolved air in the water would make pressure rise faster than expected.

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Its no big deal. It just blows the pressure relief then. When I start my pressure cooker, I run it without the weight on and get it blowing a bit. Then I put on the pressure weight.

I really think it would be worthwhile to borrow, beg or steal a pressure cooker and just play with it a bit before going wild and building stuff. All it takes is a pressure cooker, a nipple, a T and a piece of hose and you can be injecting steam into just about any mash vessel.

I've always been intrigued by using steam, but without the ability to "steam jacket" my kettle/MT/HLT I figured I was dead in the water. Thanks for all the great ideas!
I'm nowhere near being able to calculate the thermodynamics and other math you've done but I do want to incorporate this into my brewery.
I've got a big spare pressure cooker that I can utilize for my 10gallon batches. I'll be using gas to heat the cooker.
I've recently converted to a semi-herms set-up. I say semi because I don't have the heat exchange part, just the recirculation.
There are two ways I think I can incorporate this in the mash, but which do you think would be best?

1) It would be simple to make a T and have steam enter the recirculation but will this damage the wort due to the hot temp? Should the steam be injected before or after the pump? Before could mean possible pump issues, After possibly incomplete absorbtion...

2) My falsebottom is pretty much just SS window screen, I'm guessing if you inject steam under the screen the fine mesh will break up the "bubbles" and make it easier for the mash to absorb the heat. This way you don't have to worry about the flow of the steam (too much). You should also be able to alleviate superheating the grain depending on how much space is underneath the false bottom.

I suggest that you try making up a manifold to put under your SS screen. Should work really well because the screen will hold the grain above the heat source. See my sig for some pics of how I made a very simple manifold.

And I really wouldn't worry about scorching the grains -- the heat dissipates really quickly. I could actually hold my hand within about 1/4" of the steam jets on my manifold before I could really feel intense heat from the steam.