Exploring "no chill" brewing

JumboBlimpJumbo said:

I always pull the hop bag out shortly after flame out. The reason I do this is because I use a converted keg for a kettle and it has a dip tube which the hop bags always seem to clog up when I am transferring the wort to my bucket to cool. I also use the same bucket to cool the wort and ferment in and I've been brewing pretty frequently lately so I would run out of hop bags if I left them in.

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You bring up a good point. If you use a hop bag and actually remove it from the wort before transferring to the cube you really don't need to plan on any extra hop utilization (60 becomes 90, 15 becomes 30 yadda yadda...) You still could add a 5 minute addition or a flame-out addition, whirlpool, remove and transfer, yes?

I was dinged in a competition for HSA in a stout that was NC. Do you think NC had anything to do with that? I did use year old hops though

McCuckerson said:

You bring up a good point. If you use a hop bag and actually remove it from the wort before transferring to the cube you really don't need to plan on any extra hop utilization (60 becomes 90, 15 becomes 30 yadda yadda...) You still could add a 5 minute addition or a flame-out addition, whirlpool, remove and transfer, yes?

I was dinged in a competition for HSA in a stout that was NC. Do you think NC had anything to do with that? I did use year old hops though

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I am pretty sure the hop oils are already extracted by that point and will continue to isomerize whether the pellets are in there or not.

Jonnio said:

I am pretty sure the hop oils are already extracted by that point and will continue to isomerize whether the pellets are in there or not.

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Yep, until that beer cools down the Alpha Acids will continue to isomerize.

I got an "Aqua-tainer" for Christmas... excited to give the no-chill brewin' a go.

Sounds like a perfect alternative for me in an apartment.

I'm gonna throw out a quote from John Palmer from Brewing Classic Styles

"The main bittering agents are the alpha acid humulone resins, which are insoluble in water and not particularly bitter until isomerized by boiling."

In my experience I haven't noticed a difference in bitterness levels when I switched to no chill, and I remove the hop bags at flameout. I have done a few experiments with hop additions directly to the no chill bucket. One was supposed to be a relatively low IBU golden ale, that had bittering hops added at the beginning of the boil and some directly to the bucket. It has a very long lingering bitterness that I'm certain was contributed by the last hop addition. The other experiment I did is bottled and waiting to be carbonated but I tasted it at bottling and it was pretty interesting. For that beer the only hop addition I had was 4 oz of Summit hops directly to the no chill bucket, without boiling. When I tasted this beer at bottling, it didn't have a super strong front bitterness like I expected but it had the same long lingering bitter aftertaste as my other beer. I will post more on this beer once it is carbonated, because the hop flavor and aroma were also unique.

So based on that quote from John Palmer and my own experience, I would say that as long as the hops are removed in a hop bag, you won't achieve any more bittering while your beer is cooling down. However, it would be an interesting experiment to try if anyone is interested. It would be easy to collect a small amount of wort after flameout, cool it quickly, and refrigerate it overnight then compare it the next day to a sample of wort from the bucket.

Just because the resins aren't water soluble doesn't mean that they will stay with the hop pellet sludge and be contained within the hop bag.

I have been doing 2 different beers and I can tell you that the bitterness does increase from no chill. My basic technique has been to boil 11-12 gallons of wort, cut off the flame and pull 5 1/2 gallons out of the spigot (which is about 2" up on the side of the boil kettle with no pickup tube) and then chill the rest and ferment normally.

The no-chill beer will receive a dose of dry hop after fermenting to replace the aroma and some of the flavor that was lost, but in general I can tell you that it yields a much more bitter beer even though it gets little to no hop residue in it.

I have had people taste them side by side and nobody actually believes they came from the same boil kettle they taste so different.

I've never done a side by side but I guess it must be a lot more noticeable that way. Have you noticed a difference in the character of the bitterness aside from just the amount of bitterness? From the two I have done with the bucket hop additions I would say the character of the bitterness is kind of like a smooth bitterness when you first taste it, but almost a harsh aftertaste bitterness that lingers on the tongue for quite a while compared to any of my other beers.

JumboBlimpJumbo said:

I've never done a side by side but I guess it must be a lot more noticeable that way. Have you noticed a difference in the character of the bitterness aside from just the amount of bitterness? From the two I have done with the bucket hop additions I would say the character of the bitterness is kind of like a smooth bitterness when you first taste it, but almost a harsh aftertaste bitterness that lingers on the tongue for quite a while compared to any of my other beers.

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How noticeable it is will also depend on the amount of hops your using. If your doing a total of an ounce over the 60 minute boil and going from 15 to 20 or 25 ibu you probably won't be able to tell. My last one was a little hoppier beer, so the jump was pretty big. As far as flavor profile, they were different (which is to be expected), but neither were unbalanced like you are saying.

I would guess that what your noticing is that the flavor profile is out of whack a little bit by the way your doing your hop additions. With no hops added during the boil you are probably missing that early "bite" and only getting the lingering one. Mine have the same bitterness throughout due to the multiple additions at various times to complement each other.

Question about no-chilling in a kettle.
Now i know it's not a perfect seal and i don't feel too safe putting hot/near boiling sugary wort into a plastic bucket (even though it's been proven safe )
I've been toying with the idea of no chill in the kettle
now, like i've stated previously, i know the seal isn't SEALED and still will let steam out and air in once it shrinks. Has anyone tried getting a few wraps of cotton or something similar soaked in starsan or vodka and keeping it wrapped around the "seal" of the kettle once the lid is on? or hell, soak it in star san, leave the lid off and drape it over top? and using a bungee cord or large rubber band around it so it doesn't move?

Thoughts?

Rivenin said:

Question about no-chilling in a kettle.
Now i know it's not a perfect seal and i don't feel too safe putting hot/near boiling sugary wort into a plastic bucket (even though it's been proven safe )
I've been toying with the idea of no chill in the kettle
now, like i've stated previously, i know the seal isn't SEALED and still will let steam out and air in once it shrinks. Has anyone tried getting a few wraps of cotton or something similar soaked in starsan or vodka and keeping it wrapped around the "seal" of the kettle once the lid is on? or hell, soak it in star san, leave the lid off and drape it over top? and using a bungee cord or large rubber band around it so it doesn't move?

Thoughts?

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Use a Corny Keg if you want to use stainless and put some head pressure on the keg so when the wort shrinks it doesnt pull the lid , and seal in ,

Your method would be fine if you wanted to make some spontanously fermented lambic

I do this for all my no chills. I have a 10 gallon stainless kettle with a fairly hefty lid that has a pretty good fit. It isn't airtight, for sure, but it hasn't been a problem for me. I do clean and sanitize the lid before I pop it on at flameout.

I boil outside then move the kettle to the basement floor and let it sit there. I've also cooled outside using a cloth tarp over the lid to keep the wind off of the kettle. Haven't had an issue with the results. When its cool enough (16-22 hours later), I rack to primary off the hops and trub and pitch.

Depending on your level of comfort and the seal of your lid, your experience may vary. I have no useful comments on adding stuff to seal your kettle.

I no-chilled in the kettle for my first no-chill batch. I just put the lid on, brought it inside and pitched 24 hours later. It's still fermenting; no sign of infection. No-chilling in the kettle does have some additional risks and won't work for long-term storage, but it would eliminate flavor scalping from HDPE containers. I'm not sure if I'll stick with no-chilling in the kettle, winpack, or a corny yet. I haven't done enough no-chilling to make an informed decision yet.

If you're averse to using the plastic buckets and want to use your kettle, I think a good option would be to buy another lid, drill a hole, put in a grommet, and do the vodka soaked cotton ball in the airlock thing. Or you could just do that to the lid you have but then it's kind of ruined for most other purposes.

EDIT: That's assuming you have a tight fitting lid to begin with. Maybe this in combination with placing something on the lid to weigh it down to assure the air goes in through the air lock.

Rivenin said:

Question about no-chilling in a kettle.
Now i know it's not a perfect seal and i don't feel too safe putting hot/near boiling sugary wort into a plastic bucket (even though it's been proven safe )
I've been toying with the idea of no chill in the kettle
now, like i've stated previously, i know the seal isn't SEALED and still will let steam out and air in once it shrinks. Has anyone tried getting a few wraps of cotton or something similar soaked in starsan or vodka and keeping it wrapped around the "seal" of the kettle once the lid is on? or hell, soak it in star san, leave the lid off and drape it over top? and using a bungee cord or large rubber band around it so it doesn't move?

Thoughts?

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I've used a cotton ball before, but never bothered soaking it in anything. I don't bother anymore.

I sure wouldn't go out and buy anything extra just to no chill. It's what $12 in ingredients? How much will you spend to prevent an imaginary problem that only risks $12? That doesn't make good sense. If I'm doing an IPA and I've got $10-$12 in the Hops alone? I'm going to find a way to chill that beer.

I tell you, the only bugs I worry about these days are the six legged variety. And possums. We've got a big 'un I've caught sniffing around my dang brew kettle last time I had it chillin outside. I had a few bricks on top, but I swear he was calling a friend and they were gonna take my beer AND my brew kettle.

If you ever lose a couple $60 batches of beer in a row your mind will change about not worrying about bugs. The bigger issue to me though - the reason most of us are moving to no-chill is to maximize our brew time, so losing an entire 4 hour brew session is a bigger problem then the loss of the money from ingredients.

smiths9312 said:

I sure wouldn't go out and buy anything extra just to no chill. It's what $12 in ingredients? How much will you spend to prevent an imaginary problem that only risks $12? That doesn't make good sense. If I'm doing an IPA and I've got $10-$12 in the Hops alone? I'm going to find a way to chill that beer.

I tell you, the only bugs I worry about these days are the six legged variety. And possums. We've got a big 'un I've caught sniffing around my dang brew kettle last time I had it chillin outside. I had a few bricks on top, but I swear he was calling a friend and they were gonna take my beer AND my brew kettle.

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Jonnio said:

If you ever lose a couple $60 batches of beer in a row your mind will change about not worrying about bugs. The bigger issue to me though - the reason most of us are moving to no-chill is to maximize our brew time, so losing an entire 4 hour brew session is a bigger problem then the loss of the money from ingredients.

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Point taken. I've only had one beer to get contaminated and that was a Raison D'Etre Clone which was a chilled beer. It must have been the raisons. I had a milky white film over the top of the beer after it was fermented. I thought I'd ruined it, but it still tasted mighty good, even six months later.

I've been meaning to update on an experiment I did with bucket hop additions. This was an extract batch, boiled only 15 minutes, and the only hop addition was 4 oz of summit 14.0% directly to the no chill bucket. The bucket was sealed, allowed to cool overnight, and the hop bag was removed before pitching the yeast.

When I first bottled this, I didn't really know what to think. The uncarbonated beer had a very noticeable flavor that is hard to describe but I want to say it was grassy/vegetal tasting. Pretty much as soon as the beer carbonated this flavor seemed to disappear, and after being a month in the bottle I can't detect it at all. The beer has a nice aroma, mainly dominated by orange/citrus notes, and it's pretty much exploding with hop flavor. The main flavors again are an unmistakable orange/citrus and what I want to just call "fruity" in general. The beer has a smooth, medium-high bitterness that I would say is the average IPA bitterness if there is such a thing, and it lingers for a while on the tongue.

I had previously done a batch using 1 oz of the same style of hop addition along with a 1 oz 60 minute hop addition, not realizing that the bucket hop would add bitterness as well as aroma and flavor. That beer turned out to be much more bitter than I anticipated, and the bitterness seemed to linger forever. At first I blamed the bucket hop addition for the lingering bitterness, but now I think it was just a very poorly balanced beer. Somehow I ended up with much more volume than I anticipated resulting in a 3.8% beer with 2 oz of Centennial 9.0%, so of course it seemed too bitter.

I think this method of hop addition is a really good way to explore the character of a single hop variety, and also a good way to load your beer with hop flavor. If I was using a lower AA% hop variety though I might want to add some to the boil to make sure I get enough bitterness.

What was the recipe that you used for that one?

7 lb light LME
1 lb light DME
1 lb Crystal 20
4 oz Summit 14.0% pellets (added to no chill bucket, hop bag removed after cooling overnight)
Safale US-05
OG 1.053
FG 1.014
Boiled malt extract for 15 minutes then transferred to bucket.

Well, just picked up my 5 gallon Jerrican and a 5 1/2" diameter stainless steel funnel. No chill here I come!

Links to items:
Jerrican: http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23848&clickid=redirect
Funnel: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00004UE6N/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

So this might be a very stupid question so I apologize but do the FWH hops come out once you start your boil? Or do they stay in the entire boil? Im just thinking they would contribute to more bitterness if they are left in or is that thinking not correct?

jbrookeiv said:

Well, just picked up my 5 gallon Jerrican and a 5 1/2" diameter stainless steel funnel. No chill here I come!

Links to items:
Jerrican: http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23848&clickid=redirect
Funnel: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00004UE6N/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

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Brewed up an AK47 Pale Mild last Friday night, funneled it into the Jerrican as soon as I finished the boil, and let it cool overnight. Pitched the next morning at 80F before I went out of town for 2 days, came back and it was bubbling away! Can't wait to see how this turns out.

wedge421 said:

So this might be a very stupid question so I apologize but do the FWH hops come out once you start your boil? Or do they stay in the entire boil? Im just thinking they would contribute to more bitterness if they are left in or is that thinking not correct?

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They are kept in during the entire boil. However, I don't think FWH are used very much in No Chill brewing. I see a lot of flame out additions though.

I use them all the time. They are another way to get flavor and bittering into a brew. Try it, you'll like it. Just be sure you're calculating the IBUs right. Sometimes I forgo the bittering addition and just add that all as FWH.

nutty_gnome said:

I use them all the time. They are another way to get flavor and bittering into a brew. Try it, you'll like it. Just be sure you're calculating the IBUs right. Sometimes I forgo the bittering addition and just add that all as FWH.

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I do this a lot. I don't really adjust the quantity much for the FWH addition, but I often add some of the same hops at flameout (in a no-chill brew) to bring back some of the hop flavor. I think having the flavor increases the perception of bitterness, although that's a totally unsubstantiated opinion based purely on my own palate.

Just brewed my first No Chill batch. A simcoe IPA. Everything went really smooth, I cant believe how much time it cuts off. My only concern now is the container I put the beer in is bulging at the sides. Ill trust you guys that it wont blow up, I bought the Winpak plastic cylinder. Ill let you know how it turns out

push all the air out again, i have to burp mine like once or twice.

just did a no chill AG version of dogfish heads orange wheat, i do love me some no chill, cuts SOOOO much time off of my brew days. i love it!

wedge421 said:

Just brewed my first No Chill batch. A simcoe IPA. Everything went really smooth, I cant believe how much time it cuts off. My only concern now is the container I put the beer in is bulging at the sides. Ill trust you guys that it wont blow up, I bought the Winpak plastic cylinder. Ill let you know how it turns out

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The Winpak is one tough puppy. It will be fine, just don't shake it or anything. Just move it around enough for the hot wort to touch all the surfaces.

Went to order the jerry cans from US plastics and they're "On Order". Damn. Wanted to order two 5G's and a 3G. Realy need the 5G by next weekend to try my first no chill.

IrregularPulse said:

Went to order the jerry cans from US plastics and they're "On Order". Damn. Wanted to order two 5G's and a 3G. Realy need the 5G by next weekend to try my first no chill.

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IP you have a kegging setup as I recall? Just use a corny keg and give it a blast of co2 while it chills. I do no chill brewing in my sanke kegs all the time and I dont even bother with a co2 blast. Haven't had a problem yet (10-15 batches of 10 gallons) and it takes 2 days for my beer to chill (*knocks on wood*).

Just cap teh corny and give a blast of co2 to get teh air out and then leave the pressure release valve open so taht as the beer chills it doesnt put a negative pressure on the keg. Then you can either transfer to a carboy or just ferment in the corny if you have the equipment. Spend the money on an extra keg instead of a plastic jug.

cruelkix said:

IP you have a kegging setup as I recall? Just use a corny keg and give it a blast of co2 while it chills. I do no chill brewing in my sanke kegs all the time and I dont even bother with a co2 blast. Haven't had a problem yet (10-15 batches of 10 gallons) and it takes 2 days for my beer to chill (*knocks on wood*).

Just cap teh corny and give a blast of co2 to get teh air out and then leave the pressure release valve open so taht as the beer chills it doesnt put a negative pressure on the keg. Then you can either transfer to a carboy or just ferment in the corny if you have the equipment. Spend the money on an extra keg instead of a plastic jug.

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I would just follow this advice or use an ale pale. They used Jerries in Australia because they were easy to get and cheap.

smiths9312 said:

I would just follow this advice or use an ale pale. They used Jerries in Australia because they were easy to get and cheap.

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They're cheap here too, it's just that at this time we've only found one supplier. If someone else has them (McMaster, etc.), and I'm sure someone out there does, then we'll be in business!

cruelkix said:

I do no chill brewing in my sanke kegs all the time and I dont even bother with a co2 blast..

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So are you going directly from kettle to the sanke? Whirlpooling first? And since you're not hitting it with co2, I'm guessing you aren't putting the 'ring' back in to hold the spike in place - is that right?

(lots of questions!)
Chad

Aquatainer's are available at Wal-Mart in the camping section. They work perfectly well for no-chill's.

http://www.relianceproducts.com/products/hydration/79.html

The Winpaks work very well also. I let it cool and ferment right in them.

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23285

ChadLeBald said:

So are you going directly from kettle to the sanke? Whirlpooling first? And since you're not hitting it with co2, I'm guessing you aren't putting the 'ring' back in to hold the spike in place - is that right?

(lots of questions!)
Chad

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That's right. I took the spears out and I let it chill with a #11 stopper with a 3 piece airlock with the inside taken out. When it is down to temp (like 36-48 hours) I pitch the yeast and put the inside back in. Done and done. Then i use the keg washer i built using a copper pipe with slits and a sump pump. Its probably not the most sanitary system..... but it works pretty well for me.

jeffmeh said:

The Winpaks work very well also. I let it cool and ferment right in them.

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23285

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I went with one of these and a 2.5g jerry for when I do 3G batches. I'll be doing my first no chill this Sunday with a Brown Ale. I hadn't realized you can then just pitch right into it until re-reading this thread to adjust my hop schedule. That's even better. I can't wait to see how much I enjoy the brew day over usual. I've always hated the chilling process since 08 when I started brewing.

Hop schedule was
1 oz Eask Kent at 60
1 oz Liberty at 30
1.5 oz Williamette at 5

Now it will be
1oz East Kent at 40
10z Liberty at 10
1.5oz Williamette at flame out, Let sit for 10 minutes, then transfer to Winpack.

That look right?

I actually have a hop schedule/amount question. I'm getting ready to brew my first IPA ever, and while I've done a few batches no-chill (anyone need help with a stout or American wheat?), my confidence is a little lacking for this one, as I've never brewed an IPA by any method. I'm looking at doing a SMaSH with Bravo hops to get a taste for them. I prefer a less bitter, more flavor-forward hoppiness. How's this look?

12 lb Maris Otter

1 oz Bravo (11.3-14.2% AA) FWH
.5 oz Bravo, cube-hop
1 oz Bravo, dry-hop in secondary.

Should I bump the cube-hop to a full ounce?

Thanks in advance.

Bravo is a bittering hop so its not going to have much flavor. I've not used it, but I think it similar to warrior which has a subtle flavor when used as a cube hop. If you want flavor out of a bitting hop that is known mostly for bittering, then you need to really go heavy on the cube hops. 2 ounces would not be outrageous if you balance the bittering contribution from the cube hops. Its up to you though.

Not knowing much about bravo is crippling my judgement in this instance.

Hey guys just wanted to let you know that I posted a video of my all grain brew day with the no chill brew method. This was my first batch chilling this way! Let me know what you think. And thanks again for all the info!!