Motorized Grain Mills: Time to show them off!

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Cleaned up the control box since last post.
Bottom switch is reverse / off / forward.
E-Stop is probably overkill, but it looks cool. ;)
.

millars_17.jpg
 
Very nice! Very Clean!

Do you just pick it up and carry it outside to mill your grain? I can only imagine how dusty that thing would be if it were used inside!!!
 
Been using it inside, and yes, even though my bucket is pretty tall, it does make dust. The gearmotor is 177 RPM, so it's not too bad. My next mod will be some kind of skirt to contain the dust.
 
The chute is a rubber reducing collar 6in to 4 in secured with three L brackets. The piece of pvc has a little play in it so i can use 6.5 gal buckets if i want. I just cut a hole in the lid which fits snug enough that i can pull it up an it will stay put. It is fairly dust free. If needed i can lay a shirt around the top but to seal the gap but havent needed to yet. Very little get caught on the edges and a few taps takes care of it.
.
The motor is 3450 rpm with a 1.5 in pulley and 12 in sheave on the mill. I think the belt is 44in. When i thought the pulley was 2in i calculated the set up at 572 rpm i think but i measured before the build and it is 1.5 so im in the high 400's. The site recommends 500 so im ok with that.

Sorry i cant add pics at the moment as i am working out of town.
 
Also i just found a motor on craiglist for 45 bucks. It was easier than looking for discontinued favorites of others and expensive new ones. The table was a free ikea hand me down, pvc i had, L brackets i had. So my costs where the mill, reducing collar (20$), and motor(45$). I have also build a guard from left over plexi and scrap wood.
 
Huaco and JeepinJeepin,

I design stepper motor drive systems among other things. You do NOT want to try to use a stepper for milling grain. They can't just be driven by a DC or AC voltage applied to the terminals, they need to be manually phase-controlled (using a microcontroller or PLC) and they are FAR more expensive in terms of dollars per torque than AC and DC motors.
 
MazdaMatt said:
Huaco and JeepinJeepin,

I design stepper motor drive systems among other things. You do NOT want to try to use a stepper for milling grain. They can't just be driven by a DC or AC voltage applied to the terminals, they need to be manually phase-controlled (using a microcontroller or PLC) and they are FAR more expensive in terms of dollars per torque than AC and DC motors.

So, a 12vdc stepper motor cannot be driven at a steady 12 volts? What if it doesn't have an encoder? Just the motor? I'm just beginning to read up on servos and steppers and such(starting to play with Arduino).
 
Huaco and JeepinJeepin,

I design stepper motor drive systems among other things. You do NOT want to try to use a stepper for milling grain. They can't just be driven by a DC or AC voltage applied to the terminals, they need to be manually phase-controlled (using a microcontroller or PLC) and they are FAR more expensive in terms of dollars per torque than AC and DC motors.

Great... thanks man.
 
So, a 12vdc stepper motor cannot be driven at a steady 12 volts? What if it doesn't have an encoder? Just the motor? I'm just beginning to read up on servos and steppers and such(starting to play with Arduino).

That's correct. A stepper is a very different type of motor. I think they are really awesome for what they do because other motors can't do what they do. Their strong points are absolute fine control and "holding torque". Generally they have 180 "steps" per rotation but with some advanced techniques you can "microstep" (more on that later).
A stepper motor has 4 leads coming out of it (sometimes they have more, but then you'll tie pairs of them together to reconfigure and you always end up with 4 leads to drive). The leads are in two pairs, A and B which corrospond to a pair of coils. If you drive both A and B with forward voltage the motor will snap to nearest forward-forward position. Then you can reverse polarity on A and it will snap to the nearest reverse-forward position. Then reverse B and it snaps to the nearest R-R position, then forward A again and you get to the nearest F-R position. You've just moved 4 steps of 180 and the motor has turned 8 degrees.
If I haven't lost you yet, that's the 4 possible combinations of forward/reverse polarity on A and B coils. To move in one direction you do this: FF, FR, RR, RF, FF, FR, RR, RF. To move in the other direction you do this: FF, RF, RR, FR, FF, RF, RR, FR.
At any time you can leave the coils charged as they are and the motor will hold still with a lot of torque. You can transition those "states" as quickly or slowly as you like and move forward and backward at your whim. These are why they are great for low-cost CNC machines.
To drive one with an Arduino you have two choices. First, you can learn how to use an "H-Bridge", which is a way of forward/reverse/off/short polarizing a coil using two arduino outputs (10 is forward, 01 is reverse, 00 is off, 11 is short). An H-Bridge is just 4 mosfets and you can google the configuration and usage. You'll need one for each coil.
The other way to drive them is with a specialized motor driver chip. We like to use A3977 by Allegro. These let you just use a Direction, Step, Enable and Sleep input and it does all the sequencing for you. This is where "microstepping" comes in. You can actually get a little finer than FF, FR, RR, etc... you can do FF, 80%F20%R, 20%F80%R, RR... this "steps" the motor between the regular locations and the Allegro chip takes care of all of that. This nets you up to 16 times the steps (depending on the chip, usually 8, SOME do 32) so you're now in the thousands of microsteps per rotation range. And THAT is why you'd want an stepper, so you can make good use of all that accuracy to do things like CNC or tracking camera or robotics. The encoder is used for feedback to make sure you aren't "cogging", or skipping from one FF position to the next because of external force, or not moving forward because of a blockage. If you try to go really fast against a torque load it will skip back to the previous cog and you don't know that unless you're reading an encoder.
The wikipedia page on steppers is actually a pretty precice read for you to get started.


Great... thanks man.
No problem - we finally hit a topic that I have some solid input on :)
 
Awesome! Thanks MazdaMatt. The one experience I had with a "stepper motor" some time ago wasn't actually a stepper motor. The things you learn on a beer forum...
 
de3isit said:
Here is my MM2. Currently drill powered. I will motorize it in the near future.

That looks awesome. What plate did you use to mount the bottle to the mill?
 
That's correct. A stepper is a very different type of motor. I think they are really awesome for what they do because other motors can't do what they do. Their strong points are absolute fine control and "holding torque". Generally they have 180 "steps" per rotation but with some advanced techniques you can "microstep" (more on that later).
A stepper motor has 4 leads coming out of it (sometimes they have more, but then you'll tie pairs of them together to reconfigure and you always end up with 4 leads to drive). The leads are in two pairs, A and B which corrospond to a pair of coils. If you drive both A and B with forward voltage the motor will snap to nearest forward-forward position. Then you can reverse polarity on A and it will snap to the nearest reverse-forward position. Then reverse B and it snaps to the nearest R-R position, then forward A again and you get to the nearest F-R position. You've just moved 4 steps of 180 and the motor has turned 8 degrees.
If I haven't lost you yet, that's the 4 possible combinations of forward/reverse polarity on A and B coils. To move in one direction you do this: FF, FR, RR, RF, FF, FR, RR, RF. To move in the other direction you do this: FF, RF, RR, FR, FF, RF, RR, FR.
At any time you can leave the coils charged as they are and the motor will hold still with a lot of torque. You can transition those "states" as quickly or slowly as you like and move forward and backward at your whim. These are why they are great for low-cost CNC machines.
To drive one with an Arduino you have two choices. First, you can learn how to use an "H-Bridge", which is a way of forward/reverse/off/short polarizing a coil using two arduino outputs (10 is forward, 01 is reverse, 00 is off, 11 is short). An H-Bridge is just 4 mosfets and you can google the configuration and usage. You'll need one for each coil.
The other way to drive them is with a specialized motor driver chip. We like to use A3977 by Allegro. These let you just use a Direction, Step, Enable and Sleep input and it does all the sequencing for you. This is where "microstepping" comes in. You can actually get a little finer than FF, FR, RR, etc... you can do FF, 80%F20%R, 20%F80%R, RR... this "steps" the motor between the regular locations and the Allegro chip takes care of all of that. This nets you up to 16 times the steps (depending on the chip, usually 8, SOME do 32) so you're now in the thousands of microsteps per rotation range. And THAT is why you'd want an stepper, so you can make good use of all that accuracy to do things like CNC or tracking camera or robotics. The encoder is used for feedback to make sure you aren't "cogging", or skipping from one FF position to the next because of external force, or not moving forward because of a blockage. If you try to go really fast against a torque load it will skip back to the previous cog and you don't know that unless you're reading an encoder.
The wikipedia page on steppers is actually a pretty precice read for you to get started.



No problem - we finally hit a topic that I have some solid input on :)

I was scrapping out an old large format copier in our shop (Well, I scrapped part of it. The base is becoming my brew stand!) and I found a decent sized motor inside. It's a "synchronous" motor. The description I read online didn't give me any idea if it could be used for milling. It's a 115V motor. There are 2 leads for power, and then there are 2 wires coming out which run into what might be a capacitor.

I can't tell if it's 115VAC, or 115 VDC. I'm guessing AC, because I've only ever seen 115 VAC equipment, but I have seen 90VDC stuff, and it looks like it might be DC, but heck if I know.

The description I read indicated that a synchronous motor is used for high precision, which makes sense when feeding copies and accurately duplicating.

I'm tempted to plug it in and see what it does, but I have to know how to tell if it's AC.
 
That looks awesome. What plate did you use to mount the bottle to the mill?

I used a couple 1x6's and mounted an ABS female clean out adapter to them. On the bottle I used an ABS male adapter. I had to do a little sanding to make it fit though. I think it turned out pretty good. You can take to bottle off the mill for storage.
 
I was scrapping out an old large format copier in our shop (Well, I scrapped part of it. The base is becoming my brew stand!) and I found a decent sized motor inside. It's a "synchronous" motor. The description I read online didn't give me any idea if it could be used for milling. It's a 115V motor. There are 2 leads for power, and then there are 2 wires coming out which run into what might be a capacitor.

I can't tell if it's 115VAC, or 115 VDC. I'm guessing AC, because I've only ever seen 115 VAC equipment, but I have seen 90VDC stuff, and it looks like it might be DC, but heck if I know.

The description I read indicated that a synchronous motor is used for high precision, which makes sense when feeding copies and accurately duplicating.

I'm tempted to plug it in and see what it does, but I have to know how to tell if it's AC.

Not to turn this into a science of motors thread, but we're not TOO far off topic because people need to know their motors to build motorized mills. Anyway, I'm willing the bet that the two small wires coming off are actually for a hall effect sensor so the printer knows the speed/position of the roller. A Synchronous motor is one that turns in time with the AC signal being fed to it. A 60Hz ac signal will make it turn at (correct me if i'm crazy) 3600rpm, though it may be some divisor based on internal windings (1800, 1200, 900, 600, 400, 300... depending on the windings). If you plug it into the wall I foresee two things happening. It either slips because it can't keep up with the sudden 60Hz (because the printer would ramp up the freqecy in conjunction with the motor speed read by the hall sensor) and burns out, or it suddenly pounds into action at whatever RPM it will run at 60Hz. I fully expect that it will have a hard time starting under load.

If it were me and I had no other use for an AC sync motor, i'd attach it to a switch, run a wire out to the middle of my driveway, hide behind a wall and turn it on :) If that works, find a way to load it and repeat the test.
 
DC motors don't use caps

Not to turn this into a science of motors thread, but we're not TOO far off topic because people need to know their motors to build motorized mills. Anyway, I'm willing the bet that the two small wires coming off are actually for a hall effect sensor so the printer knows the speed/position of the roller. A Synchronous motor is one that turns in time with the AC signal being fed to it. A 60Hz ac signal will make it turn at (correct me if i'm crazy) 3600rpm, though it may be some divisor based on internal windings (1800, 1200, 900, 600, 400, 300... depending on the windings). If you plug it into the wall I foresee two things happening. It either slips because it can't keep up with the sudden 60Hz (because the printer would ramp up the freqecy in conjunction with the motor speed read by the hall sensor) and burns out, or it suddenly pounds into action at whatever RPM it will run at 60Hz. I fully expect that it will have a hard time starting under load.

If it were me and I had no other use for an AC sync motor, I'd attach it to a switch, run a wire out to the middle of my driveway, hide behind a wall and turn it on :) If that works, find a way to load it and repeat the test.

I'm guessing it's an AC motor. The wires simply go from the motor, to the little black box, and back to the motor. Then there are two other wires that go out to the leads. So I'm guessing that it actually is a cap, but it's not in a round package like I'm used to seeing.

No need to put it out on the driveway. It's only 120V ;) I'll have a bucket of water handy to throw on it if it lights up! :D

I'll have to try and remember to get the part number off the sticker and see what I can find. If it's not powerful enough to power a grain mill, maybe it's powerful enough to run a peristaltic pump or something...
 
I have access to parting out a motorized wheelchair. Has anyone successfully powered a mill with the DC motors out of one of these? Just wondering what all I would need to salvage out of it.
 
Huaco said:
I have access to parting out a motorized wheelchair. Has anyone successfully powered a mill with the DC motors out of one of these? Just wondering what all I would need to salvage out of it.

I have not but would assume the batteries and charger at the least. I don't know how much power those use, but I would think it would be more than you would easily find in a normal DC power supply. It wouldn't be a bad idea to grab the load control and operator control while you have it.
 
I have not but would assume the batteries and charger at the least. I don't know how much power those use, but I would think it would be more than you would easily find in a normal DC power supply. It wouldn't be a bad idea to grab the load control and operator control while you have it.

Just saw a video on youtube... I need the motor only for what I plan to do. I will have to remove the brake from the rear housing of the motor, but after that, I can just hook it up to an AC/DC converter of appropriate power output and hook the leads up to it. Should have PLENTY of torque for crushing grain! I may grab those other items to build a little yard-car for my two boys to romp around in! Afterall, it does have two motors on it! lol...

[youtube]fvwp&NR=1[/youtube]

youtube embed fail!... WTH? is HBT different from other forums with their embed code?

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/p8_vGv_03Ao?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Put a multimeter across the terminals on that motor to see the coil resistance. What's the voltage of it? Divide voltage by coil resistance and you get your "stall current". A DC power supply to drive the motor should have that much current capacity. It is likely that you can save a bundle by using batteries in series to add up to that voltage and a cheap slow charger to give you the oomph you need to mill grain. You "CAN" over-volt those motors safely, too, but if you do that, make sure you turn it off when you're done milling and make sure it is kept cool.
 
So here's mine

MillingGrain.png

MillHopper.png

MillHopperCloseUp.png


A huge thanks out to Hoppopotomus and mrjofus1959 for their ideas and assistance.

The rat's nest of wiring has been cleaned up - I wasn't able to get a good shot in the room that it's current living in.

perogi.
 
Can you give any particulars about motor size, rpm, what size sheaves, final rpm of the mill? Great looking build. What are the overall dimensions?
 
Here's my $0.00 Pasta Maker Grain Mill in action.:fro:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXJ4OCCY_I4&feature=youtu.be
I used the "drill bit in reverse" technique to "knurl" my rollers and it seems to be doing a pretty good job so far. I've milled at least 25lbs of grain with it. I found a large, old flathead screwdriver that fit in the slot for the crank and I just sawed off the tip to mount in the drill. I could hand crank it but that got old after a few pounds of grain. I added the upper hopper/plastic bottle holder part after a couple batches. It probably holds 2 or 3 lbs of grain at a time. For costing nothing, I'll use it until it breaks. :rockin:

I had some trouble keeping it going and stable on the table while holding the camera in the video. I have to keep the drill farther inside too, I've learned. Once it gets going, I try not to stop. Having someone to pour in grain helps. Wheat is tough to get going so I "prime" it with some barley to get it rolling.
 
I'm looking to get my MM-3 going and naturally want to save some dollars so took stock of what I have. I have an old lathe with a GE 3/4hp motor, 1725 rpm. It says with its 2" motor pulley and 4.5" spindle pulley it has 635 rpm. I also have a shaft and pillow blocks so can put another pulley off that to slow it down further. But I'm curious how important it is for reverse - I've seen that referred to ofter in this thread. This motor just has two wires out of it.

Another motor I have is from a blower. It is a Lennox 1/3 hp, 1025 rmp, 6 amp motor that can be 110V or 220V. It has several wires but I assume it isn't reversible either? A couple purple wires go to a capacitor, a white common, a black for Hi speed, Brown for med. hi, yellow for med. low, and red for low. I could gear this down with pulleys too.. if it were powerful enough. So any thoughts? and is it important for reverse? Looks like to buy a motor now-a-days and gearing it down or buying a geared motor is lots more expensive than it was a couple years ago.
cheers, JD
 
Hunky, I did something similar to what you are thinking about in post #147. Mine is made from scrap wood and since I still use my lathe, the mill removable.
 
Hunky said:
I'm looking to get my MM-3 going and naturally want to save some dollars so took stock of what I have. I have an old lathe with a GE 3/4hp motor, 1725 rpm. It says with its 2" motor pulley and 4.5" spindle pulley it has 635 rpm. I also have a shaft and pillow blocks so can put another pulley off that to slow it down further. But I'm curious how important it is for reverse - I've seen that referred to ofter in this thread. This motor just has two wires out of it.

Another motor I have is from a blower. It is a Lennox 1/3 hp, 1025 rmp, 6 amp motor that can be 110V or 220V. It has several wires but I assume it isn't reversible either? A couple purple wires go to a capacitor, a white common, a black for Hi speed, Brown for med. hi, yellow for med. low, and red for low. I could gear this down with pulleys too.. if it were powerful enough. So any thoughts? and is it important for reverse? Looks like to buy a motor now-a-days and gearing it down or buying a geared motor is lots more expensive than it was a couple years ago.
cheers, JD

Switching the #5 lead with the #8 lead will reverse your dual voltage motor
 
A buddy of mine and i just went "dutch" on the purchase of a Barley Crusher. He's a new brewer, in fact hasn't brewed a drop yet, just collecting all of his equipment. Anyway, the being "part" owners of the crusher we decided to make it portable. After several homebrews and several design ideas, we came across a "david" sunflower seeds bucket from sam's club. it fit the crusher and hopper nearly perfectly, so here's what we came up with for our
"PBC: Portable Barley Crusher"

In the next post, I will show how we tackled the "ridges" in the bottom of the bucket, and how we made an extension for the shaft, with a set screw collar.

IMG_0555.jpg


IMG_0556.jpg


IMG_0557.jpg


IMG_0558.jpg


IMG_0559.jpg
 
the bottom of the buckets have ridges in them, and so wood was cut to fill them in flat, so the mill could be firmly mounted to the bucket. the lid to the bucket bottom, and then the crushed grains fall into the bottom bucket.

we also had a buddy that works for a machine shop make us an extension collar for the shaft on the crusher. paid him in a few beverages, and he made it out of scrap round stainless stock.

2013-03-23_09-12-31_651.jpg


2013-03-23_12-40-36_382.jpg


2013-03-23_12-53-25_770.jpg


2013-03-23_16-19-30_350.jpg
 
Back
Top