Foamy First 4oz from Tap, Need Help!

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Johnnyboy1012

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Hey guys,
I have a Beer Meister dual tap kegerator and I cannot figure this thing out for the life of me. I've been reading the forums on here, I've emailed the company but nothing seems to be working.

The problem that I have is that my first few oz of beer are all foam and then it pours clear. When I want a beer I have to bring two glasses to my kegerator, one for the first foamy few oz and the other for the beer I'm going to drink. I hate that this happens and I feel like I am wasting my brew by pouring out the foam. When the foam settles back into beer it tastes flat and and not as good as the beer should. It is like a creamy foam that first comes out. I've tried all different serving pressures and have even ended up over carbonating my beer to were I need to take the keg out, degas it and then start over.

When I open the door sometimes I see bubbles in the beer line and sometimes I see a large gap of space between the beer in the line and the keg. Another thing that I read is that it may have to do with the draft tower not being cooled and when the beer hits it, it foams up.

So here is the catch with my kegerator; I have two beers I have on tap and a lager that is lagering, so I want to keep the temperature as cold as possible (and my Beer Meister goes down to 32 degrees) which may not be helping my cause because at 32-34* I have to set the PSI to about 6-7 to avoid over carbonating my beers on tap. I believe it has 5 feet of 3/16 beer line.

Please help! Any suggestions?? Thanks in advance!
 
Hey guys,
I have a Beer Meister dual tap kegerator and I cannot figure this thing out for the life of me. I've been reading the forums on here, I've emailed the company but nothing seems to be working.

The problem that I have is that my first few oz of beer are all foam and then it pours clear. When I want a beer I have to bring two glasses to my kegerator, one for the first foamy few oz and the other for the beer I'm going to drink. I hate that this happens and I feel like I am wasting my brew by pouring out the foam. When the foam settles back into beer it tastes flat and and not as good as the beer should. It is like a creamy foam that first comes out. I've tried all different serving pressures and have even ended up over carbonating my beer to were I need to take the keg out, degas it and then start over.

When I open the door sometimes I see bubbles in the beer line and sometimes I see a large gap of space between the beer in the line and the keg. Another thing that I read is that it may have to do with the draft tower not being cooled and when the beer hits it, it foams up.

So here is the catch with my kegerator; I have two beers I have on tap and a lager that is lagering, so I want to keep the temperature as cold as possible (and my Beer Meister goes down to 32 degrees) which may not be helping my cause because at 32-34* I have to set the PSI to about 6-7 to avoid over carbonating my beers on tap. I believe it has 5 feet of 3/16 beer line.

Please help! Any suggestions?? Thanks in advance!

The first 4 ounces is foamy then as long as you pour glasses you have no foam? But wait 20 minutes and the first 4 ounces are foamy again?

This is caused by the beer shank & faucet inside your beer tower warming up to room temperature. Then you draw a glass of beer, the beer hits the warm shank & faucet and foams. It's a problem with all direct draw type kegerators but the solution is simple.

Install a beer tower cooler. A beer tower cooler is a fan assembly with a hose that sticks up through your beer tower. The cooler pulls cold air up from inside your fridge & blows it at the beer shank & the cold air keeps your beer shank & faucet cool enough to prevent foaming.

You can make one or buy one from one of several resellers on the net.
 
While it could be a tower/shank cooling issue, the gap in the line suggests that it's not the only culprit. If your serving pressure corresponds to a carbonation level lower than that of the beer, CO2 will break out of solution and form pockets of gas in the line after sitting for a while. This will cause the symptoms you're describing. How did you carb the beer, and to what carbonation level?
 
Satisfaction: Maybe I will have to try that. What is you serving temp and psi? I feel like that will be a lot of lines in my kegerator that I may not have room for because I'm just barely able to fit 3 kegs in there along with the tubing for co2, but if that's what will solve the problem. So the issue that you had had nothing to do with warm taps and warm lines in the draft tower?

I've done both force carbonating and set it and forget it. I always get a foamy pour. And if I remember correctly I always see bubbles in the line no matter what way I carbonate. A buddy of mine has the same kegerator and it happens to him too so maybe it's not just me.
 
The temp is set at 42f with the serving pressure of 12-15 psi, also set and forget it style.

There is some really good advice posted in the thread, I went through a bunch of trouble shooting and in the end for me it was the line length that resolved it.
 
That will have to be one of my options. Are your taps cooled at all or at room temperature? Thanks for the help!
 
Are taps at bars usually chilled? Because I can tell when I pour a beer at home the tap sweats but when at a bar the taps don't usually look cold but pour perfectly. That make sense?
 
Are taps at bars usually chilled? Because I can tell when I pour a beer at home the tap sweats but when at a bar the taps don't usually look cold but pour perfectly. That make sense?

Most of those commercial setups are glycol chilled, and the tap itself isn't chilled, but the line is wrapped in glycol. I haven't ever really looked to see if they sweat, but they are also pouring beers far more regularly then most kegerator owners so they are probably cold most of the time the bar is active.

At the Firestone Walker Tasting Room in Buelton, ca they have glycol chilled taps and it forms an ice dam around the top of the tower.

One last thing to consider about bar taps is this: The kegs they are serving all come properly carbonated to start with, and they are callibrated precisely with pressure/temp..so they're not going to have the kind of problems we have when trying to force carb our homebrew as a result.
 
I figured bars had more advanced techniques then we homebrewers have. Ill have to look into the fan to chill my tower and longer lines to help stop this foam. Do you think 7 psi is too little to of a psi to carbonate and serve beer at? I feel like that isn't enough pressure if I want to carbonate a beer and set it at 7 and forget it. My kegerator is at 34 degrees at the moment.
 
With a glycol system the tap is chilled - the glycol runs up to a cold blocks that are attached to the beer shanks. Glycol systems keep beer cold from the keg all the way to the faucet.

And if the faucets aren't sweating it's because the humidity is low enough in the bar to keep them from sweating.
 
Satisfaction: Maybe I will have to try that. What is you serving temp and psi? I feel like that will be a lot of lines in my kegerator that I may not have room for because I'm just barely able to fit 3 kegs in there along with the tubing for co2, but if that's what will solve the problem. So the issue that you had had nothing to do with warm taps and warm lines in the draft tower?

I've done both force carbonating and set it and forget it. I always get a foamy pour. And if I remember correctly I always see bubbles in the line no matter what way I carbonate. A buddy of mine has the same kegerator and it happens to him too so maybe it's not just me.

If you're getting gas pockets in the line, it's almost always because the serving pressure is lower than the carbonation level in the beer, or the beer side diptube o-ring is bad. It can also happen if you have extreme temperature stratification, where the beer lines are much much warmer than the beer in the keg. Longer lines are good, and will solve a lot of foaming issues, but they won't fix foaming caused by gas pockets in the lines.

I figured bars had more advanced techniques then we homebrewers have. Ill have to look into the fan to chill my tower and longer lines to help stop this foam. Do you think 7 psi is too little to of a psi to carbonate and serve beer at? I feel like that isn't enough pressure if I want to carbonate a beer and set it at 7 and forget it. My kegerator is at 34 degrees at the moment.

The pressure you use is dependent on what carbonation level you want. Use a chart like this one to determine what your serving/carbing pressure needs to be. I like ~2.5 vol, and keep my keezer at 40°, so I use 12 psi. At your serving temp the same carb level would only require 9 psi. That's just personal preference though, and a lot of people like different carb levels than I do.
 
Funny, I was going to answer your question intuitively and I was going to say that 9PSI is where you should be at 34F. Then I checked JuanMoore's chart and I guess all these years some of this stuff has started to stick ;-)

For you line length, you can coil the lines about the diameter of a corny (if you have a few inches at the tops of the kegs as I do) and put them on top of the kegs. For your c02, take the time to route the tubes correctly and don't use any extra line to conserve space.

You could do all this and a tower cooler and still have the same problem, if that's the case, you're just overcarbed in your keg or have a faulty liquid out tap, post, or Oring on the diptube. Don't give up though. It can be solved. If you have to vent c02 for a couple days to relieve an overpressured keg, do it and leave the gas off. You can overshoot and undercarb it, but if that happens, just reconnect the gas at 9PSI and wait patiently. After awhile you'll start to get a feel for how to work your kegs. The carb levels change sometimes as the keg empties (at least this is my experience, YMMV)..but you'll get it wired. Cheers!
 
This may be a dumb question but is it hard to change the lines out if I get new 10' lines? The reason I ask is because my tower came already equipped with the lines attached and all I had to do was screw on the taps. I've never seen the inside of the tower or where the line connects to the back of the tap. I've taken the taps off numberous is times to clean but never taken the line off. Thanks for the indeth replies, it's greatly appreciated!
 
This may be a dumb question but is it hard to change the lines out if I get new 10' lines? The reason I ask is because my tower came already equipped with the lines attached and all I had to do was screw on the taps. I've never seen the inside of the tower or where the line connects to the back of the tap. I've taken the taps off numberous is times to clean but never taken the line off. Thanks for the indeth replies, it's greatly appreciated!

Your beer tower came with 5' of line, and 5' isn't included with all draft air cooled towers by accident. 5' is used because this length plus the height of the tap above the kegs has been used to control foam in many thousands of bars & for years the manufacturers have been building what's been needed by the industry. Adding more length is just masking another problem, like over carbonation.

Also, adding length to the lines may introduce another cause for foaming. Sometimes CO2 will break out in the lines where the barb fitting is inserted because of the sharp edges of the barb fitting. So if you do decide to add length you need to replace the beer line.

Your issue is the beer faucet & shank are too warm or your carbonation is too high or both. Install a beer tower cooler & manage your carbonation and your foaming problem should go away.

Tom
 
Your beer tower came with 5' of line, and 5' isn't included with all draft air cooled towers by accident. 5' is used because this length plus the height of the tap above the kegs has been used to control foam in many thousands of bars & for years the manufacturers have been building what's been needed by the industry. Adding more length is just masking another problem, like over carbonation.

No, 5' is used because the calculators used for commercial systems say that it's the minimum length that won't result in excessive foaming, and kegerator manufacturers assume their customers are going to want to replicate the conditions of a commercial system. Commercial draft systems keep the beer very cold (34°-38°F), serve beer with ~2.7 vol or less of carbonation, have measures in place to eliminate temperature stratification, and are designed to pour beer as fast as possible without excessive foaming under these conditions (~1gal/min).

Many homebrewers don't want to keep within these parameters, especially the temperature, and end up with a ton of foam using a 5' line. In many cases the pour speed needs to be slowed down to prevent foaming, and the most common way to do this is replace the lines with longer ones. There's absolutely no side effect to longer lines other than a slightly slower pour. Unlike bars whose profit could be affected by how many pints they can pour in an hour, most homebrewers don't need to maximize the pour speed, so a couple extra seconds to pour a beer is a small price to pay for better system flexibility.

And there aren't many "problems" that longer lines will mask. If your tower/shank is significantly warmer than the beer, it will still create a foamy first pour no matter how long the lines are. Same thing with the beer being carbed higher than the serving pressure, the gas pockets will still form in the line and come out as sputtering foam. I suppose it would mask the "problem" of the beer being served warmer than 38°, but a lot of us don't consider that a problem at all.

Your issue is the beer faucet & shank are too warm or your carbonation is too high or both. Install a beer tower cooler & manage your carbonation and your foaming problem should go away.

In this case I agree, but that's because the OP is keeping the beer very cold, and it sounds like they're not trying to achieve carb levels above 2.7 vol. For someone that's wanting to serve beer at 42° like many of us homebrewers, I'd say that they need longer lines.
 
OP,

It depends on what kind of hookups your beer line has to your taps how hard it will be to replace. In some cases it'll be worm clamps and there will be enough room to work inside the tower to just loosen them pull off the old lines and put on the new ones...but that's never been the case for me.

I generally take the faucets off the tower to give me some room to work and remove the lines that way. If your lines have Oetiger clamps (the permanent clamp type with no screws to loosen/tighten it)..you may have to remove them completely from the tower and take it out to your garage to get them off. I hate those clamps. You CAN get them off with some sweat, some linesmans pliers, some needle nose pliers and a very small screwdriver to fit inside the crimped part of the clamp..but the easiest way IMHO, is a metal cutoff wheel on a rotary tool. Replace them with worm clamps to avoid this nightmare in the future. Oetigers do their job (hold tubing in place) very well, but they were never designed for removal.
 
Juan I do use that chart that you recommended in your post but I have an oatmeal stout on tap at the moment so and prefer the lower end of carbonation.

Awesome information guys! Anyone recommend a beer tower cooler that they use and like? My kegerator is in my living room so I would like a fan that is pretty quiet if possible. Also, does anyone recommend a place where I can get beer line? I might as well kill two birds with one stone here. :mug:
 
I did a search and found a few that look good. I was inquiring to see if anyone has one and if they like it, how quiet it is, and if they recommend it.
 
I would think they're all roughly the same noise level as they all use 3 inch computer fans. Mine is quiet enough unless it gets pushed up against my cold plate in the back of the kegerator then it vibrates the plate and resonates loudly. I would seriously consider making one if I were you..or there's a guy on Ebay (was at least) who makes them and sells them for 30 bucks I think..it's been awhile and my memory is probably clogged with malted hops and bong resin. :drunk

PS: if you build it yourself, just double up on the fan, project box, speed control and buy 2 neo dynamium (rare earth) magnets. After you build the tower cooler, build a stir plate and use one of the magnets with some epoxy/superglue on a fan blade and the other as a "getter" magnet so you can pitch starters without throwing the stir bar into the fermenter. One set of skills, two very useful devices for your beer. :)
 
Either make a fan, and get longer lines or do this.

IMG_1907.jpg


IMG_0270.jpg
 
PS: if you build it yourself, just double up on the fan, project box, speed control and buy 2 neo dynamium (rare earth) magnets. After you build the tower cooler, build a stir plate and use one of the magnets with some epoxy/superglue on a fan blade and the other as a "getter" magnet so you can pitch starters without throwing the stir bar into the fermenter. One set of skills, two very useful devices for your beer. :)

I wish I thought of this long ago before I bought a stir plate!
 
Either make a fan, and get longer lines or do this.

That's an awesome upgrade! I'm not the handiest guy around so I doubt I could pull off an upgrade like that, plus the door on my kegerator is plastic. Is there any specific reason you put the taps on the front rather then keep the tower other then to add two more taps?
 
Putting the taps on the door eliminates the need for a beer tower cooler. This is because the faucets aren't mounted 14" above the top of the fridge where they would get warm, like they are in a beer tower.
 
Putting the taps on the door eliminates the need for a beer tower cooler. This is because the faucets aren't mounted 14" above the top of the fridge where they would get warm, like they are in a beer tower.



yuuuuup..what he said.
 
I wish I could upgrade my system to look like yours, but I'm too afraid of messing it up. Until then, I've decided to upgrade my kegerator and I am ordering two Perlick Forward Seal faucets. Anyone have these and what do you think? I am also ordering 35 feet of of 3/16th so that I can play with my line length if i need to. I am also going to be ordering a tower cooler so I think that would have everything covered? Anything else you can think of that I may need to upgrade my kegerator so it works perfectly every time? Also going to order some BLC to to keep lines clean...thoughts? suggestions? Thanks guys :rockin:
 
I wish I could upgrade my system to look like yours, but I'm too afraid of messing it up. Until then, I've decided to upgrade my kegerator and I am ordering two Perlick Forward Seal faucets. Anyone have these and what do you think? I am also ordering 35 feet of of 3/16th so that I can play with my line length if i need to. I am also going to be ordering a tower cooler so I think that would have everything covered? Anything else you can think of that I may need to upgrade my kegerator so it works perfectly every time? Also going to order some BLC to to keep lines clean...thoughts? suggestions? Thanks guys :rockin:

Perlicks rock, and even better yet there in Wisconsin. Thats all I ever owened and wont buy any other faucet..Never heard of blc.. Just run PBW though the lines after each keg is killed unless you have a pipeline to keep it active. I run PBW through my lines after every keg, then hang to dry if another keg is not going in right away..Then sanitize before use.
 
^BLC is marketed specifically for kegerator owners, and to my understaning it's a much more concentrated form of PBW. It's expensive too and comes in a liquid form. It IS magical at dissolving stubborn deposits and beer stone...but I just use PBW nowadays.
 
I've used pbw also but I'm cautious with the amount of rinsing that u have to do after you use it with water then an acid based substance like star san. I've heard BLC is amazing at cleaning the lines so I figured I'd give it a try. I just ordered 35 feet of 3/16 beer line, and 2 perlik faucets.
 
BLC is poatasium hydroxide, a pretty strong caustic. PBW is mainly sodium meta-silicate, pretty much the same as oxi-clean.
 
Funny, I was going to answer your question intuitively and I was going to say that 9PSI is where you should be at 34F. Then I checked JuanMoore's chart and I guess all these years some of this stuff has started to stick ;-)

For you line length, you can coil the lines about the diameter of a corny (if you have a few inches at the tops of the kegs as I do) and put them on top of the kegs. For your c02, take the time to route the tubes correctly and don't use any extra line to conserve space.

You could do all this and a tower cooler and still have the same problem, if that's the case, you're just overcarbed in your keg or have a faulty liquid out tap, post, or Oring on the diptube. Don't give up though. It can be solved. If you have to vent c02 for a couple days to relieve an overpressured keg, do it and leave the gas off. You can overshoot and undercarb it, but if that happens, just reconnect the gas at 9PSI and wait patiently. After awhile you'll start to get a feel for how to work your kegs. The carb levels change sometimes as the keg empties (at least this is my experience, YMMV)..but you'll get it wired. Cheers!

I was thinking about this post where u mention that carb levels change as the keg empties. Do you think this is because temperature at the bottom of the fridge is 2-4 degrees colder then at the top of the fridge? So as the keg empties and the level of the beer in the keg gets lower, the temperature of the beer can drop 2-4 degrees causing slight over carbination. I've had this happen before as well, I had to degas my last 1/4 of a keg because it mysteriously got over carbonated but now I think I figured out why that happened. What do you think?
 
I was thinking about this post where u mention that carb levels change as the keg empties. Do you think this is because temperature at the bottom of the fridge is 2-4 degrees colder then at the top of the fridge? So as the keg empties and the level of the beer in the keg gets lower, the temperature of the beer can drop 2-4 degrees causing slight over carbination. I've had this happen before as well, I had to degas my last 1/4 of a keg because it mysteriously got over carbonated but now I think I figured out why that happened. What do you think?

I think it's because temperatures over time aren't 100% stable, and over time a 1PSI difference in actual pressure vs. theoretical pressure (what the table says it should be) gets magnified and will result in either under or over-carbed beer. Which kind of dovetails with your scenario of temperature differences at the top vs. bottom of the fridge. The longer you have a keg on tap the more problematic this becomes.

I don't want to discourage you, but think you said something earlier about getting it to work perfectly every time, but in all honesty, in my 20 years of owning kegerators, I'm still working on it. I think of it more as dance I do with each keg over time....it's a hobby in and of itself.

Regarding your question on rinsing PBW, it's known as a "quick rinse" cleaner. So a quick rinse in the same temp as the PBW solution you ran through the line should suffice. I probably use 1G of PBW, 1G of hot water, and 1G of sanitizer. This is my regular routine. I try to do it every 2 kegs or so, and whenever I have multiple kegs swapping out at once. I also try to recycle all the cleaning chemicals for keg cleaning as well.
 
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