240V with no neutral? Can I build a rig?

All, I'm hoping to build out a 10 gallon electric brewery with a friend. He has what I believe to be an L6-50 outlet in his garage which his father used for his big drill press and table saws. Can I safely build a rig using a few 240V elements using this outlet? I'm assuming ( I haven't gotten over there with a multimeter yet ) that it's 2 hots and a ground. What about if I also wire in some 120V pumps? Should I use a separate 120V line with a proper ground and neutral for the pumps?

If not, what would I be looking at to re-wire this thing the right way with 4 prongs? I'm assuming I'd need to run new wire? I appreciate any help you can offer! :rockin:

Here is a terrible picture of the outlet.

You can certainly use it, but it would be safer if you re-wired it with a 4 prong and a GFCI breaker. You could try to find a GFCI cord, but they are few and far between. You'd have to put a new end on the GFCI cord as most of them use dryer plugs, which aren't the locking type you have pictured.

As far as running other things off of it, we'd need to know the amperage of the outlet and the breaker feeding it. We'd also need to know the wire size going from the breaker to the outlet. If it's 20A, you can't even run a 5500W element off of it. If it's 30A, then you can run a 5500W element and maybe a single pump at a time. Marches use 1.4 amps i believe, so 5500w element and 1 pump is 25 amps, which is 1 amp over recommended capacity for a 30A circuit.

There should be a NEMA rating on that outlet face. It should be like L5-20 or L14-30 or something similar. That will get us started on some recommendations.

If it is indeed an l6-50, you can certainly run a full blown rig off of it. You could run like 1 5500w element, 1 1500w RIMS element and a couple pumps all at the same time.

I failed to mention that the circuit breaker is labeled 50, I'm working on getting a better look at the outlet but for now this is all I have. I'm hoping the outlet and the wiring are 50 amps as well. I'm looking at running two 4500w elements and both pumps if possible but I've read the load on the march pumps can reach up to 15 amps.

Maybe you can wire a 50 amp gfi spa panel to the 50 amp breaker.

That's actually what I've been looking at since posting this. Obviously it's more added cost but for the safety it is worth it! So if I understand correctly the spa panel adds a neutral line so that the GFCI can function? IS it a problem that the neutral would terminate in the panel, or in this case is the only function to provide a means of measuring the current out? Would I then be able to us the neutral for running the 120V pumps?

magnj said:

That's actually what I've been looking at since posting this. Obviously it's more added cost but for the safety it is worth it! So if I understand correctly the spa panel adds a neutral line so that the GFCI can function? IS it a problem that the neutral would terminate in the panel, or in this case is the only function to provide a means of measuring the current out? Would I then be able to us the neutral for running the 120V pumps?

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The spa panel doesn't add a neutral. If you only have two hot lines and a ground coming in, that's all you have going out. The GFCI breaker in the panel has a pigtail lead that would connect to the neutral line if you had one, otherwise it connects to the ground. The way I wired mine (hooked to a three prong dryer outlet) was to tie the incoming ground wire and the breaker pigtail to the neutral terminal block and tie the neutral terminal block and ground terminal block together - the only outputs are the two hot lines from the breaker and a ground wire from the ground terminal block - no neutral output.
If you want 120 volts as well as 240, I think you would have to use a separate 120 volt outlet for your pump, or else run new wire from your main breaker panel to add a neutral to your outlet.

I'm in the same situation. A slight oversight on my part was when I realized pretty far in to the system build was that my 240v outlet was 3-prong. Luckily the breaker panel and the outlet are close together, so new 4 wire cable/new GFCI CB and a new outlet and I should be set. Depending on accessibility you should be in the same boat as me.

I'm pretty sure the breaker is in the basement and the outlet is in the garage. If there isn't a conduit I can't picture how I would begin to run a new line...

magnj said:

I've read the load on the march pumps can reach up to 15 amps.

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This is not correct. The full load on the march pumps documentation is listed as 1.4A. Many people run them on 15A breakers but that doesn't mean they draw 15A.

Alright, I must have misread, thanks for all the help so far guys.

Couldn't you wire the ground in as the neutral in the panel and then manually ground your rig itself to a stake in the ground outside the garage. It wouldn't be up to code at all but would work.

You could certainly use it but you couldn't split 120V off of it. As for a GFI, you could use something like this http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-30A-250V-GFI-service-power-cord-NEMA-6-30P-plug-/330520739707?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cf4923f7b since it doesn't require a neutral.

Turn off the breaker pull the receptacle cover off and check the wiring, there may actually be a neutral tucked away in there somewhere.

If you don't need 120 you can use use it. Often 240v circuits are wired with 2 conductor with ground Romex. Also pumps have a start up surge current. Wires and breakers must be designed for surge current not full load current.

magnj,

There are methods that can be used to supply the power you need to your brew area that would be within NEC requirements. (NEC - National Electrical Code) To solve your issues and come up with a plan for you, I need to know about the wiring that is in place now. Can you look at the wire run and determine the cable type, wire size of each of the 3 conductors and (very important) do you have access to the cable run from the breaker panel to the outlet. If the cable is a 3 conductor and each of the wires is insulated and the same wire size, there is a strong possibility that there is an easy solution to provide 120/240V using the existing setup.

Please let me know.

wyzazz said:

You could certainly use it but you couldn't split 120V off of it. As for a GFI, you could use something like this http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-30A-250V-GFI-service-power-cord-NEMA-6-30P-plug-/330520739707?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cf4923f7b since it doesn't require a neutral.

Turn off the breaker pull the receptacle cover off and check the wiring, there may actually be a neutral tucked away in there somewhere.

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It's at a friend's house but it looks like I'm going to have to take a trip over there to get this sorted out. As for the cord you linked to, I did see those, nut nothing above 30A.

P-J said:

magnj,

There are methods that can be used to supply the power you need to your brew area that would be within NEC requirements. (NEC - National Electrical Code) To solve your issues and come up with a plan for you, I need to know about the wiring that is in place now. Can you look at the wire run and determine the cable type, wire size of each of the 3 conductors and (very important) do you have access to the cable run from the breaker panel to the outlet. If the cable is a 3 conductor and each of the wires is insulated and the same wire size, there is a strong possibility that there is an easy solution to provide 120/240V using the existing setup.

Please let me know.

Click to expand...

P-J, I will try to get this info asap. To check the gauge of the wire, I turn off the circuit breaker then pull it out? I've never really done anything like that before. I assume I should pick up some kind of splicer to check the gauge as well? Is there also something I should be checking with my multimeter? I greatly appreciate your help!

Conroe said:

Also pumps have a start up surge current. Wires and breakers must be designed for surge current not full load current.

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I misspoke about full load, the rating on the pump is 1.4 for startup and .7 under normal operating. I have, as do many, my pumps running on 2A breakers and they operate perfectly. Sizing the breaker higher is fine, but it won't protect the motor from locking up etc.

The breaker only protects the wire. It's a fire thing. The wire is sized for over the maximum load, the breaker is sized to the wire.

You can get a neutral with a CT 1:1 transformer. It's better to run a new circuit even if you have to use conduit.

Conroe said:

Also pumps have a start up surge current. Wires and breakers must be designed for surge current not full load current.

Click to expand...

All they need use is 2A breaker with a D curve magnetic trip point.
Designed to handle 10 to 20 times the rated current for a few cycles.
A 14 AWG wire is rated 20 A but must be protected with 15 A device.
The inrush current is for a short duration and will not effect the wiring.
Too many pump starts in a short time will trip the breaker before the wire heats up and the pumps thermal sensor may trip too.
The thermal trip point of breakers is around 40°C-50°C (design and manufacturer dependent) way below the temperature rating for the wire insulation.

I don't think our toy pumps create any problems.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB

P-J said:

magnj,

There are methods that can be used to supply the power you need to your brew area that would be within NEC requirements. (NEC - National Electrical Code) To solve your issues and come up with a plan for you, I need to know about the wiring that is in place now. Can you look at the wire run and determine the cable type, wire size of each of the 3 conductors and (very important) do you have access to the cable run from the breaker panel to the outlet. If the cable is a 3 conductor and each of the wires is insulated and the same wire size, there is a strong possibility that there is an easy solution to provide 120/240V using the existing setup.

Please let me know.

Click to expand...

I'm interested in where you're going with this P-J.

Potential bad news, the outlet cover says 15a 120v... But that seems like an odd plug for that combo. Maybe just a different cover?

magnj said:

Potential bad news, the outlet cover says 15a 120v... But that seems like an odd plug for that combo. Maybe just a different cover?

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Sounds like a generic outlet cover. Once you figure out what Gauge wire is feeding the circuit and what size breaker is on there you will know for sure.

wyzazz said:

I'm interested in where you're going with this P-J.

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Me too... Maybe run a separate conductor for neutral or ground?

Or maybe he has a prototype of that wireless electrical outlet I have been hearing about?

Ed

Ohio-Ed said:

Me too... Maybe run a separate conductor for neutral or ground?

Or maybe he has a prototype of that wireless electrical outlet I have been hearing about?

Ed

Click to expand...

Maybe a Tesla Coil for a Wireless Antenna? Sparks flying through the air!

You guys are funny. (Over the top?)

Think about this: You have an out building (a barn) on your property that has 120/240V power fed to it on overhead wires. The power is delivered with 3 wires - 2 hots and a neutral. Equipment ground is not run as a seperate line but is in place at the out building. Depending on magnj's setup, the same thing can be done for his situation. Or, also depending on his setup, an independent ground conductor could be run. It does not have to be included inside the cable. The neutral does - not the ground.

I'm just trying to get info on his setup to see what can be done.

Ok now you guys have me wondering...assuming I have the right gauge wire, and we are in fact looking at a 2-hot 1-ground 50amp outlet what would the solution be? And for now let's assume I can run in a 120v line for the pumps, so I'd just be running 2 elements and the pid's.

Ok now you guys have me wondering...assuming I have the right gauge wire, and we are in fact looking at a 2-hot 1-ground 50amp outlet what would the solution be? And for now let's assume I can run in a 120v line for the pumps, so I'd just be running 2 elements and the pid's.

I see what you are saying pj, unfortunately I can't get over there today but as soon as I know what's what I'll lyk. To check the wire I'm pulling off the breaker or the outlet? And how do I use my multimeter to check whether the third pole is neutral or ground.

P-J said:

You guys are funny. (Over the top?)

Think about this: You have an out building (a barn) on your property that has 120/240V power fed to it on overhead wires. The power is delivered with 3 wires - 2 hots and a neutral. Equipment ground is not run as a seperate line but is in place at the out building. Depending on magnj's setup, the same thing can be done for his situation. Or, also depending on his setup, an independent ground conductor could be run. It does not have to be included inside the cable. The neutral does - not the ground.

I'm just trying to get info on his setup to see what can be done.

Click to expand...

Hmmm, I actually never thought of just stealing the ground from another source. In a 3-wire setup like that (if they are all insulated wires) are they hot/hot/neutral or is it possible that it's hot/hot/ground? Or doesn't it really matter since they are tied together at the breaker box?

By tied together, do you mean that at the box the third mystery wire is tapped into both neutrl and ground? Is the solution then to change it to only neutral and find or make a ground somewhere?

I realize this is stupid to discuss without knowing what I have, just wondering though.

Nevermind used a bit of Google-Fu and got a grasp of how things work. The below squared me away...

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Electrical-Wiring-Home-1734/Neutral-vs-ground.htm

Be careful... I think this is one of those situations where by code the ground can be smaller than the other conductors. You need to make sure all the conductors are the same and correct size. If you re-purpose the ground conductor to be a neutral, it may be undersized.

Unless I'm missing something the only reason you need the neutral is because you want 240 and 120VAC...right? You dont have a 120VAC receptacle in the area or you just dont want to have to plug your rig into 2 different places?

My goals are to power 2 240v elements and 2 pumps. If i need to run a 120v line into the box for the pumps then that's an easy solution! My lack of electrical experience is probably confusing you guys.

Main goal: electric brewery, no electrical shocks or fires.

If I can safely run the elements from the 240, I don't see a problem finding a 120v to do the pumps. Was I making it too complicated?

I just want to do it safe.

It's always best to over think when it comes to the electrical stuff as long as you have reliable people backing up the final solution. I'd still let everyone know what your wiring looks like for your existing recep and breaker in case you do have the option of using it for 120 and 240. It's a lot cleaner to run one plug to your control panel and eliminates another source of troubleshooting if the need arises.

magnj said:

If I can safely run the elements from the 240, I don't see a problem finding a 120v to do the pumps. Was I making it too complicated?

I just want to do it safe.

Click to expand...

The easiest solution is to just have 2 sources of power (240 & 120) feeding in to your control panel in this case.

Ok, could someone shed somelike on how the gfi would work in that case? Specifically on the 240 side...

Ok, could someone shed somelike on how the gfi would work in that case? Specifically on the 240 side...

magnj said:

Ok, could someone shed somelike on how the gfi would work in that case? Specifically on the 240 side...

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You would need 2 seperate GFCI's, one for the 240 and one for the 120. GFCI's for 120V are less than $10.00 at your local big box store.