All-(roasted, malted)grain GF porter??

Hi all, I've read conflicting opinions on this topic: the use of roasted malts as the ONLY grain used in all-grain brewing. Is that possible?

Malted quinoa, for instance, seems to contain enough protease and amylase for conversion. But if these grains are roasted, wouldn't that destroy the enzymes and render the whole malting process pointless? Would the roasted malt give the same results as roasted unmalted grain?

Sure, I guess you could cheat by adding enzymes or malt extract, but I fail to see the logic of using strictly malted grain if you're gonna burn the life out of them...

Opinions?

Roasting would kill the enzymes.

Just like in glutenous brewing, you roast the hell out of some and use the enzymes from the other.

Although quinoa having plenty of enzymes to convert itself is new information, where did you source that from exactly?

DKershner:

I’ve heard from colleagues who have successfully brewed from malted quinoa without added enzymes or malt. I do not have any experience in beer making, I am therefore unable to assess diastatic power from malted quinoa.

This reference has been cited many times, but I do not have access to it :
Lorenz K, Nyanzi F. Enzyme activities in quinoa (Chenopodium quinoa). Int J Food Sci Tech 1989; 24: 543-51.

I’ve also read references here and there (Not very scientific, but still), that quinoa might have higher levels of enzymes than we would think … Ex :

Beta-amylase levels :
http://www.mbaa.com/techquarterly/pdfs/TQ-45-1-0073.pdf

Alpha-amylase levels :
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proceedings1993/v2-222.html

Nevertheless, are you able to answer my question: is there any benefit in using roasted malted quinoa versus roasted unmalted quinoa, either in terms of flavor or aromas? Or is it just a waste of money and time to use the malted versions if you're going to roast them?

Cheers

I think the situation is the same for GF grains as it is for barley. The more heavily roasted the grain, the less it's diastatic potential. For this reason, I don't think any beer is made from exclusively roasted malt. Usually a beer containing some percentage of roasted malts also has a significant percentage of unroasted (base) malts with enough diastatic power to not only convert its own starch, but that of the roasted malts and adjuncts. So no, I don't think it's really possible to make a beer from roasted malt alone (GF or no). Frankly, I don't really see why one would try either, a little roasted malt goes a long way.

Edit: Oh, I think I see what you're asking. You want to know if there is a difference between using roasted malt and roasted unmalted grain? The difference is that malt already has a significant portion of its starch converted to sugar, so when you roast it you are roasting and caramelizing the sugars as opposed to roasting starch alone. I haven't ever had roasted grain that wasn't malted, but I imagine it's a lot different than roasted malt.

ill be kegging a unmalted roasted quinoa brew today or tomorrow. this was an all grain batch utilizing added enzymes.

ive been really lazy and havent had the time to malt my own, so i was trying this path.

in regards to your question, yes roasting the grain kills the enzymes. there is a way around this though. the addition of proportion of pale/green malt (ie malted quinoa that is not roasted) should do what your looking for. i cant rememeber the exact proportions. i am aware too that quinoa doesnt exactly have high diastolic power either. if your diastolic power is low, you wont run out of enzymes for the process unless you kill them. they have their preferred optimum temp ranges. alpha is best around 135F and beta is best around 160f.

ive done AG with quinoa before using the green malt method. i did a 1:4 ratio 1 lb green malt to 4 lb roasted malt. started at 130F and worked up over the course of 2 hours to 165F. i had pretty poor conversion though. for 10lb total i only got 2-3%alcohol. i would suggest increasing the mash time. i now work bassackwards. i add boiling water to my grain in the mash tun and let it cool to 160F, add enzymes ( from baker and crosby) and do a 18-24hr mash. with pretty good luck.

spagyric said:

I think the situation is the same for GF grains as it is for barley. The more heavily roasted the grain, the less it's diastatic potential. For this reason, I don't think any beer is made from exclusively roasted malt. Usually a beer containing some percentage of roasted malts also has a significant percentage of unroasted (base) malts with enough diastatic power to not only convert its own starch, but that of the roasted malts and adjuncts. So no, I don't think it's really possible to make a beer from roasted malt alone (GF or no). Frankly, I don't really see why one would try either, a little roasted malt goes a long way.

Edit: Oh, I think I see what you're asking. You want to know if there is a difference between using roasted malt and roasted unmalted grain? The difference is that malt already has a significant portion of its starch converted to sugar, so when you roast it you are roasting and caramelizing the sugars as opposed to roasting starch alone. I haven't ever had roasted grain that wasn't malted, but I imagine it's a lot different than roasted malt.

Click to expand...

- yes, your edit is exactly what I want to know; if roasting complex starches makes any difference versus roasting partially converted starches.

Anyone?

They'll definitely taste different. Look up black malt and black barley, or chocolate malt and roast barley.

I don't know for sure what the difference in taste between them is, but I can tell you that my malted and roasted buckwheat tasted more baked goods while the unmalted roasted buckwheat tasted more like nuts.

dorklord said:

They'll definitely taste different. Look up black malt and black barley, or chocolate malt and roast barley.

I don't know for sure what the difference in taste between them is, but I can tell you that my malted and roasted buckwheat tasted more baked goods while the unmalted roasted buckwheat tasted more like nuts.

Click to expand...

Very interesting... This calls for an experiment!

Well, I finally got to perform my experiment on the diastatic power of quinoa. I've malted white quinoa in a commercial sprouter for about 48 hours. Dried it with a food dehydrator at low temps, and mashed it for 1 hour between 64 to 70C. My iodine testing did not show much conversion...

Anybody else have tried mashing quinoa?